Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Discussion and plans for legalizing our hobby.

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RandyMarshCT
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by RandyMarshCT »

Thanks Bill! We really appreciate the support. We're going to make this happen for sure!
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by Just Bill »

I really hope so. I've been long interested (and a bit of a lurker here) but unwilling to pull the trigger. As the sole "breadwinner" in a single income household with a kid and a mortgage, I really cant risk the punishment for pursuing as a hobbyist.

My brother and I were looking into Washington State's craft distillery laws, but the hangup is our funding. We decided that if we were going to jump through all the hoops to be a "craft distillery" then we'd like to turn a profit from our endeavors, unfortunately costs spiral up and out of control as soon as you make that statement (equipment, rent, rules, etc).

Good times though.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by Bushman »

Just Bill wrote:I really hope so. I've been long interested (and a bit of a lurker here) but unwilling to pull the trigger. As the sole "breadwinner" in a single income household with a kid and a mortgage, I really cant risk the punishment for pursuing as a hobbyist.

My brother and I were looking into Washington State's craft distillery laws, but the hangup is our funding. We decided that if we were going to jump through all the hoops to be a "craft distillery" then we'd like to turn a profit from our endeavors, unfortunately costs spiral up and out of control as soon as you make that statement (equipment, rent, rules, etc).

Good times though.
-Bill
Yep, and we have more craft distilleries in Washington than any other state that is why they chose to have last years national distillers conference here.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by HDNB »

Bushman wrote:
Just Bill wrote:I really hope so. I've been long interested (and a bit of a lurker here) but unwilling to pull the trigger. As the sole "breadwinner" in a single income household with a kid and a mortgage, I really cant risk the punishment for pursuing as a hobbyist.

My brother and I were looking into Washington State's craft distillery laws, but the hangup is our funding. We decided that if we were going to jump through all the hoops to be a "craft distillery" then we'd like to turn a profit from our endeavors, unfortunately costs spiral up and out of control as soon as you make that statement (equipment, rent, rules, etc).

Good times though.
-Bill
Yep, and we have more craft distilleries in Washington than any other state that is why the chose to have last years national distillers conference here.
I wonder:
Is the national distillers conference a "good ol boys club" that caters only to licensed craft distillers? Or do they support hobby level distillation too?
Do they keep statistics on the economy they produce with one of these shows?

The "winning" city for the conference obviously benefits with hotel room sales and taxes and the tourist have to eat, travel about etc...i'd guess it's worth 400-500 per attendee per day to the local economy.
Now we all would like to have shows and competitons for this hobby...this show organizer would have more business than it could handle doing city, regional and national level shows for hobbyists...I'd think it would be in their best interests to get behind the lobby movement and show some support.

we need a graduate student to do a thesis or an economist to show the government how much money they could be making by repealing these stupid, antiquated laws.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by Bushman »

HDNB wrote:
I wonder:
Is the national distillers conference a "good ol boys club" that caters only to licensed craft distillers? Or do they support hobby level distillation too?
Do they keep statistics on the economy they produce with one of these shows?

The "winning" city for the conference obviously benefits with hotel room sales and taxes and the tourist have to eat, travel about etc...i'd guess it's worth 400-500 per attendee per day to the local economy.
Now we all would like to have shows and competitons for this hobby...this show organizer would have more business than it could handle doing city, regional and national level shows for hobbyists...I'd think it would be in their best interests to get behind the lobby movement and show some support.

we need a graduate student to do a thesis or an economist to show the government how much money they could be making by repealing these stupid, antiquated laws.
I have my thoughts on ADI and those that run it both positive and negative but those thoughts are best left as thoughts. I will say they have done a lot for organizing craft distilling in the US they also have publicly posted they do not promote illegal distillation.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by thumper123 »

As a home distiller in the US for more generations than I care to admit to, I've always been, shall we say, a lot paranoid about the laws. As Christmastime approaches, and my desire to share with family and friends increases, I become more paranoid still. You all know the drill - grandson wants you to bring him a bottle of your best to the family gathering; childhood friend wants to pick up a bottle or two for the annual guy getogther. I would like to do this, but I have never let my whiskey out of the house. In other words, I don't want to subject my family or friends to the risk of transporting it, giving it to their friends to sample, or endangering them in criminal possession in any way. And yet here we are as a body happily exchanging recipes and methods like we are baking cakes in a world where Google is selling our information to the NSA. I have read countless posts of people sharing with their neighbors, and frankly, the idea of my neighbors knowing what I'm doing scares the crap out of me.

Does anyone else out there have these fears? Is anyone worried about the security of our actions? I just don't envision legalized home distilling in my lifetime, but it is very ecouraging that there are thousands of us like minded individuals out there with the courage to discuss our hobby. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by RandyMarshCT »

Thumper, I completely understand your fears and believe they exist because they are warranted. I felt the same way for a long time. A couple years ago I decided not to care anymore. I'm in a unique situation, however. I'm young (comparatively) at 34 years old, I'm very well established in my business (part owner of my company), and I have the full support of my family. I can afford a good lawyer. I live a good distance from any TTB office (Philadelphia, PA).

The majority of people in CT and RI that I talk to about home hobby distilling believe it is legal, including 2 cops and a game warden that I regularly share spirits with. If I get arrested, I'll deal with it. I've mailed my senators and congressmen repeatedly concerning home hobby distilling, with my full personal details included. I bought a hillbilly flute in 2011 and my name was reported directly to the TTB. It was reported again when I bought an 8-gallon boiler, and again when I bought a 26-gallon boiler. I do not have an AFP.

If you look on the HDA website, under the "About Us" tab, you'll see my real name right there (Robert Rossi Jr.). Now, if I lived in Florida I doubt I would be this zealous. Several people in Florida have been busted for less, but they were all within 50 miles of the TTB office. The situation that happened last March was the reason why the HDA was founded. It was the first time ever that the TTB directly targeted hobby distillers who never sold a drop. It was the green flag on, "we have to get this hobby legal, now!"

I have an opposite opinion of the legalization of hobby distilling. I believe that Hobby Distilling will be legal, not just in my lifetime, but in the near future. We have made great progress with our lobbying group. Members of our leadership have met directly with the very highest echelons of the TTB in Washington, DC. We've worked out the legal framework to make this happen, but need to get the message to the Senate and Congress that people really want this to happen. Rallying the troops is virtually impossible in this activity, though. Nobody wants to put their ass on the line, and I totally understand that.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to take the approach that I have. It's probably not worth it for 99% of people out there. I just want to show you the other side of the coin. There are guys like me that just don't care. I love this hobby and I have nothing to gain whatsoever, other than being able to enjoy it without fear of legal ramifications. After meeting over a dozen other people who love this hobby just as much as I do, talking about distilling, sharing spirits, and learning TONS... I couldn't imagine taking any other approach. There is no reason whatsoever why this hobby should be illegal. After this lame duck congress moves out of the way, we'll be back at it full force. Hopefully we have the continued support of other like-minded people. People can be pessimistic and give all the reasons in the world why they think this will never happen, but that doesn't change the fact that THEY will benefit just as much from our actions as we will.

The real question is, when the Senate finally introduces our bill (which we have co-sponsors lined up for already), will they think there's enough interest out there to justify it? We'll find out.

A little bit of support from the ADI would help us a lot, but I'm not holding my breath. Almost every craft distiller out there had to learn their craft and refine their recipes illegally before they pulled the trigger on investing in an entire distillery full of equipment and the associated paperwork. But I digress...
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by thumper123 »

Thanks for your work on this. You are really "out there" as far as exposure, and you're a hero as far as I'm concerned.

I know you're right about the lack of involvement in the legalization movement due to people's perceived risk, and I'm guilty for sure. I wish there was some way to help out without the risk. Home distillers are a pretty adamant bunch, and one area we might be able to help is in small donations towards a political victory fund if things ever take off.

Your "digression" is right on. I'm friendly with some craft distillers around here, and everyone of them got their initial training on their own at home.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by LWTCS »

"everyone of them got their initial training on their own at home."

Chefs and titty surgeons are a dime a dozen in this country. Master Distillers not so much.

Only a fool would go into business without some measure of training unless they have deep pockets. And most craft guys are on a shoe string budget.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by thumper123 »

We have new laws here where I live regarding craft distilleries. As long as the distiller buys 90% of his materials here in the State, he is given carte blanch. They can even sell product at farm markets, and the locals do a bang up job of supporting them anyway.

The barrel shortage has created a local cooperage - and so forth and so forth. It's a good thing. All us peons support them heartily, and the distilleries seem to be holding their own. Of course the State is thinking about lining their coffers, but it's a step in the right direction. The State still can't overide the Federal laws, but there are many areas in marketing and such where they can do so. Legalization on a limited scale might lead to legalization everywhere. I say this after watching the legalization of marajuana progress from medical usage to the examples in Colorado and Washington. Let's hope.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by Ludwig404 »

As far as I can tell, the way pot became "legal" in some states (note: it is still a controlled substance under federal law, it's just that the feds decline to prosecute pot cases unless huge dollars are involved) was by lobbying efforts not unlike those being undertaken by the HDA. That meant that people involved in growing/processing/using pot had to attach their names to the effort. They did not, as far as I can learn, suffer any more or additional arrests because of their activism. I don't think joining the HDA is going to get you caught if you are distilling. The Constitution protects the right to associate with others and petition the government for a change in the law.

One caveat: if you are doing other things to bring you onto the radar, such as buying a 50-gallon still from a manufacturer and having truckloads of sugar and yeast delivered to your door, then your membership in the HDA could possibly bolster a TTA agent's request for a search warrant. :ewink:
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

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My feeling walking away from our meeting with the TTB was that they were not at all against our effort, and they respected that we were trying to go about legalization the right, legal way. They did not say or suggest anything that would lead me to believe that they have any interest in the HDA's membership list. Their primary concern appeared to be illegal sell operations (that is where they really lose tax revenue), and I think that hobbyists are just being caught in the crossfire. But that means that we need to get the law changed so that the hobbyist is allowed to enjoy the hobby. Our goal is not to open up any loophole for illegal sell operations. If you're selling, then you're a distilling business. If you're a distilling business, get licensed accordingly.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by wv_cooker »

Brewhaus wrote:My feeling walking away from our meeting with the TTB was that they were not at all against our effort, and they respected that we were trying to go about legalization the right, legal way. They did not say or suggest anything that would lead me to believe that they have any interest in the HDA's membership list. Their primary concern appeared to be illegal sell operations (that is where they really lose tax revenue), and I think that hobbyists are just being caught in the crossfire. But that means that we need to get the law changed so that the hobbyist is allowed to enjoy the hobby. Our goal is not to open up any loophole for illegal sell operations. If you're selling, then you're a distilling business. If you're a distilling business, get licensed accordingly.
Here,here brewhaus! Just like to reiterate how much I for one appreciate your efforts. Thanks!
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by Brewhaus »

Thank you, cooker and rockchucker. It is an uphill climb, but we are slowly getting closer. :-)
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by RevSpaminator »

One place the HDA should look for support is through home brewers and their suppliers. Most here started as home brewers and for every one of us there are probably 100 more who would love to try taking it to the next level. Also, your local HBS could only stand to gain if they could sell more distillation equipment. Since home brewers aren't in the same legal status as hobby distillers, they might feel less risk putting their name out there. It would certainly add a lot of strength to the numbers if we could get their voices too.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

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Ain't called Brewhaus for nuthin.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by RandyMarshCT »

Rev, you're absolutely correct. My local homebrew shop is a major help. One of my assignments for the HDA was hitting the hombrew forums to try and generate support. I may as well have hit a brick wall in my truck going 80 mph. Not only was I not readily welcomed, I had my posts deleted, got very harsh PM's from mods, got outright banned from some, and more. Home brewing forums do not take kindly to discussion of distillation. And I approached the subject very gingerly. I tried to post about beer brewing a bit and just comment on other threads with little mentions here and there... no dice. Some even get mad when you mention this forum (HD) in passing.
LWTCS wrote:Ain't called Brewhaus for nuthin.
Exactly... home brewing is what brought me to this hobby... and (correct me if I'm wrong, Rick) what brought Brewhaus to this industry.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by LWTCS »

True here for the retail brew shop too Randy.
They don't want to hear doodley squat about distillation.
Conversely the pro brewers in my area love to talk about whiskey. Can see the wheels turning in their heads and crooked little grins on their faces when considering all possibilities with various grains.
Not sure why it plays out that way? Seems most of the brewers started out working out of there garages and buying supplies from the brew shops. Some where along the line there was a shift?
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by RevSpaminator »

That's surprising about the stores. All the brew shops in my area may not talk a lot about it but they keep distillation supplies on their shelves.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by thumper123 »

Thank you heartly for your work, Brewhaus. Your views on our safety in the HD forum are very comforting.

Interestingly, an item in this morning's newspaper caught my eye - the DOJ has ruled that the Native Americans in Oregon can legally grow and sell pot on their reservations. It's a strange world, and I'm wondering when it will be legal to make and sell whiskey on reservations.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by Brewhaus »

It has been a while since our last update, but that does not mean that we have not been continuing to work hard on legalization. We just confirmed a meeting with the Deputy Secretary of Tax Policy at the Department of the Treasury on February 12th. With are hoping to get a follow up meeting with Senator Cornyn after our meeting with Treasury.

We are still moving in the right direction. For those who have not joined the HDA and have not contacted their elected officials, please do. We need all the support that we can get!
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by woodshed »

We have 3 breweries in our little town.
2 have vocal support. One no way so I won't sell product to him though he gets requests all the time. His brewers are friends of mine and keep me informed. Strange he will show no support.
One of the nights of the S3 meeting will be held at Wolfe Brewery.
My favorite in town. Hoping Randymarsh will speak on behalf of HDA this night as it offers an opportunity to reach people not already involved in the hobby. Steve
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by Brewhaus »

Thank you for your support on our effort, Steve. RandyMarsh has suggested to the rest of the HDA leadership that he is hoping to attend and discuss the HDA and our effort. :-)
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by woodshed »

All are welcome. Should be a fun time.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by RandyMarshCT »

Fantastic. I'm looking forward to it very much!
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

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Today is the big day for the meaning by what brew has said
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by goinbroke2 »

Turning purple holding my breath.....meeting was on the 12th.....and......pffffft....pffffft....losing air....getting tunnel vision.....pffft...
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by Brewhaus »

Sorry, all, but this trip to DC was a rush from the start. I arrived in Washington at 11:30pm on Wednesday night, had meetings all day yesterday, and then flew back out at 7:00pm, so I did not get the chance to even touch my computer.

The meetings went fairly well. The biggest, of course, being our meeting with Treasury. As expected, their concern is the tax implication (this is their job in the government, after all), but that seems to be mostly focused on the impact of legislation on illegal sales. In other words, would legalization open the door to more sales of untaxed liquor, and would the TTB have problems policing.

I will be posting a complete rundown of the meetings (as much as we can tell right now) on the HDA's website later today, so please check that out.

The biggest things right now:
1 Please urge people to sign up with the HDA. The larger our group the more seriously we are taken by our elected officials, and that directly relates to the likelihood of getting our Bill introduced. This is also a very expensive effort, and we are not getting any funding help aside from membership fees, so the little bit extra that may come in via paid memberships helps ease the burden. I am not complaining- nobody forced me to back this, and I felt that it had to be done if we were going to follow this through, but it adds up quickly.

2 Get involved. It takes only a couple of minutes, but send your Senators and House Representative a copy of the documents on the HDA's website. E-mail is best, as mail goes through intense screening and can take several weeks to be received.

3 If you are in Texas, PLEASE watch the HDA's website, as we will have a letter online in the next day or so that can be sent to Senator Cornyn, asking him to take the lead. He has been very supportive of our effort, but if he sees how many of his own constituents want this to happen it may help to make his decision easier.

That is about all for now... now it is time for me to try catching up after missing a day of my normal work. :crazy:
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by aquavita »

Thanks for the update.
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Re: Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

Post by Intimnasc »

Registered and sent letters to my representatives in Texas.
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