An issue of safety...

[MDH]

My thinking is that if we were to push home distilling from a safety record standpoint, we'd have to first face the fact that the CPSC would never allow a product to be sold on the open market which projects flames onto the base of a pot containing flammable vapor-air mixture under relatively high pressure, then condensing said flammable substance relatively near to the heat source. The most similar device already legal and approved I can think of is either a turkey frier, which involves open flame and oil, or a barbecue. Functionally they are not similar but they pose similar safety risks.

So I have to ask everybody here, when you ask for legal home distillation - are you looking for a government regulated market with its own definition of what constitutes an allowable, safe distillation device, for sale in hardware stores, etc -- or are you looking for an uncontrolled, completely unregulated market where anybody can sell any distillation setup?

Hypothetically, allowing only electric or steam jacket / coil heated stills would make operating an open-flamed still illegal, but would be more likely accepted in situations of insurance, CPSC approval, etc., and would more likely be accepted by government and regulators at large.

Could we agree as a community to stand behind a standardized system of distillation devices (Pot, column, etc) for the public?

[Bushman]

Not an answer but a question back at you! We have a lot of micro distilleries, what standards are they held to in this regard? I would think it would be worth some safety regulations and rules to make the hobby legal. We have rules here on the forum for the safety of our members, we cannot tell them how or what they can do but we can regulate what they can admit to on the forum. Personally I think we have protected from a safety standpoint a lot of people here me included.

[MDH]

I agree Bushman, but for people in regulation, it's a matter of putting the cart before the horse. If we just call for outright legalization without first defining what we want to be legal, then we risk asking for the legalization of potentially dangerous practices that then reflect badly on us since the vast majority of the public still abides by hearsay and stereotypes about home distillation and those who distill.

Today, products on the market are strictly regulated - it's not a matter of trial and error anymore where a product is released until it is proven dangerous (Did you know that for a long time, we had arsenic based dyes in our fabric?); and if accidents such as explosions were to happen, it would reflect badly on all of us -- more than a drunk or high driver would ever reflect badly on all drivers since, as I said, the public is largely still ignorant.

[S-Cackalacky]

Are there regulations for using a gas cook top inside your house, or flambeing a sauce using brandy or other alcohol? Are there regulations for using a turkey fryer which I would think to be a whole lot more dangerous than running a still? Are there regulations for using natural gas in your house - just saw a police dash-cam of a house exploding into a million pieces? There are hundreds of things that we do in everyday life that can possibly kill us and sometimes do.

[MDH]

Yes, there actually are regulations. A barbecue for instance could not use electricity or an open flame beneath the tank in order to generate the pressure to deliver volatile gas, so instead, the gas is stored pressurized so it pushes itself out. Because of that, propane tanks must come with pressure relief features so that they do not explode if they catch on fire, possibly wrecking a fireman with shrapnel in the process, and so on. That is all due to government requirements on safety.

We're asking for stills to be legal on the open market, but we need to prove we can endorse them from a safe standpoint. Yet I know even people on here are using open flame setups without water or steam jackets. I see that as a possible issue because of public perceptions about exploding stills, and the fact that it is more than likely that upon legalization, people would sell stills that are flame-heated. What will the people we are trying to appeal to think we are asking for the legalization of?

[Bushman]

This is an important topic and in my mind I think those that are behind the grass roots effort to legalize this hobby need to probably have a serious discussion when it comes to that time that it is on the books for a vote.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Don't tread on my gas fired pot still!
Legal schmegal, I intend to light a fire under my hooch.

[dstaines]

Stills are already sold in the open market. I bought one. Hundreds of our members bought theirs. The one that I bought from Mile Hi, a relatively reputable supplier all things considered, came with rubber and silicone parts in the vapor path. The government gives absolutely f**k all about whether I might hurt myself with that still, but they didn't hesitate to put my name on a list to prosecute for owning an unregistered still over 1 gallon.

Also I think you're mistaken about the role of the CSPC. If they were in charge of rigorously evaluating the safety of every new consumer product, how did my still get off the assembly line? How come the front page of their website has a warning about some recalled children's pajama that violated the federal standard for flammability of children's pajamas? There are federal safety standards that consumer products have to follow, but the CPSC is there mostly to enforce those rules by determining when a product recall is warranted. It's not a nanny gate keeper who decides which products can and can't be produced.

[Brutal]

My thinking is that if we were to push home distilling from a safety record standpoint, we'd have to first face the fact that the CPSC would never allow a product to be sold on the open market which projects flames onto the base of a pot containing flammable vapor-air mixture under relatively high pressure,

What the fuck kind of still do you have or have you seen that has "relatively high pressure?" And all the air is gone form the still pretty quickly..

[dstaines]

I do see your point that part of legalization may involve establishing explicit safety standards for hobby distilling equipment, since those regulations don't currently exist. I'm sure the government at the very least need to enumerate construction materials like lead bearing solder or brass that are demonstrably unsafe. But I reject your assertion that a gas fired still could never be sold in the US because it could never be shown to be safe. And that's coming from someone who spent over $100 switching his still setup to run on electric heat instead of the gas stove because i felt that electric was safer.

[ranger_ric]

I believe when it comes down to these questions let us simply look to our forefathers. They wrote a constitution. I cant find anywhere in there where the federal government was supposed to worry about pajamas.
I learned to ride a bike without a helmet (or knee pads and elbow pads). I sat in a car while my mama went into a store to get dinner or pay a bill. I was 7 years old walking 1 mile to school and back everyday. How about some personal responsibility. How about you take care of your crap and I will take care of mine. Get the frickin government out of our bidness.
About 9 months ago I went to buy my granddaughter a bicycle. I was excited. I was hoping that i, instead of her father would be the one to pull the training wheels and see her go off into infinity and all the freedoms that bike riding gives a child. Well Nana and I got a bike picked out when my daughter pipes up with doesn't she need a helmet??? First thought was well I never had a helmet for anything until I played 7th grade football (and that one didnt fit too well). So I says OK lets look. We find the helmets and 70% of them had skull and crossbones on them. Took me aback. When I grew up I remember being taught that if you see a skull and crossbones that means Danger, POISON, Leave it the hell alone. Now the 3 year old helmets have a pink skull and crossbones on them (how frickin cute). Somehow I dont see my granddaughter as something dangerous or poisonous.
America is shifting responsibility from the individual to someone (or anyone) else. It is not that child's responsibility to recognize danger but it is the parents and the risk of removal of the kids to remove ALL danger from the child's life. When did we allow this shift of personal responsibility.???
Just make it legal for me to buy legal products and run them through the equipment that I legally bought so I can make me what I want. Leave me every opportunity to have the blame left at my feet and dont tread on me to tell me how to pursue my happiness.
God Bless America.

Probably not what you were looking for but I feel better now.....who needs more regulation? take the guards off of the flywheels and the idiots wont live to reproduce.

[yakattack]

I believe when it comes down to these questions let us simply look to our forefathers. They wrote a constitution. I cant find anywhere in there where the federal government was supposed to worry about pajamas.
I learned to ride a bike without a helmet (or knee pads and elbow pads). I sat in a car while my mama went into a store to get dinner or pay a bill. I was 7 years old walking 1 mile to school and back everyday. How about some personal responsibility. How about you take care of your crap and I will take care of mine. Get the frickin government out of our bidness.
About 9 months ago I went to buy my granddaughter a bicycle. I was excited. I was hoping that i, instead of her father would be the one to pull the training wheels and see her go off into infinity and all the freedoms that bike riding gives a child. Well Nana and I got a bike picked out when my daughter pipes up with doesn't she need a helmet??? First thought was well I never had a helmet for anything until I played 7th grade football (and that one didnt fit too well). So I says OK lets look. We find the helmets and 70% of them had skull and crossbones on them. Took me aback. When I grew up I remember being taught that if you see a skull and crossbones that means Danger, POISON, Leave it the hell alone. Now the 3 year old helmets have a pink skull and crossbones on them (how frickin cute). Somehow I dont see my granddaughter as something dangerous or poisonous.
America is shifting responsibility from the individual to someone (or anyone) else. It is not that child's responsibility to recognize danger but it is the parents and the risk of removal of the kids to remove ALL danger from the child's life. When did we allow this shift of personal responsibility.???
Just make it legal for me to buy legal products and run them through the equipment that I legally bought so I can make me what I want. Leave me every opportunity to have the blame left at my feet and dont tread on me to tell me how to pursue my happiness.
God Bless America.

Probably not what you were looking for but I feel better now.....who needs more regulation? take the guards off of the flywheels and the idiots wont live to reproduce.

I agree that the government ends up with its nose in to much of our personal business. But food for thought, when you have Johnny smith down the street with more money then brains, going to buy a gas fires still, and having little to no experience or training, or even adiquate instructions on to what is safe, how is that good.

Johnny does a few runs, but not knowing any better loads the boiler with high wines, and leaves it unattended. Something goes wrong with the cooling pump, and the output catches fire as the vapor which is coming out at a high abv burns the apartment complex to the ground because he was using a gas stove.

Now you say that there should be safety procedures in place. Maybe even mandatory instruction class before you can buy the still. But these things come into place because the government has said that there are inherent risks to said chosen hobby, and a standard of safety for the good of everyone, needs to be set.

Now you say well it is Johnny's fault, let him deal with it. And that's all fine and dandy when it is just financial repercussions, but johnny can bring people back from the dead, or magically heal burns to 70 percent of someone's body ( neither of which were even in the same apartment as the still, and had no clue what what going on.

Now your analogy about bike helmets is cute, (and good on ya for being in your grand daughter's life, not enough people are family oriented these days) I say it has no place here as you are comparing two quotations that have zero cross over.

Bike helmets have been proven through hundreds of studies and scientific trials to increase the chance of surviving a collision with a vehicle or even just a fall from the bike. So they put a regulation on it stating that all children under the age of majority (or whatever age your state enforces) are required, because not everyone has the foresight to take these precautions on their own.

Yes we grew up without using helmets, and we grew up fine, and so do many kids today. But simple fact they do work, hence the law/regulations.

Now, this is one example. I do think that the governemt does over reach in some regards. (Keep this hobby illegal, for one) but remember that collectively we are the government and if we want change it is up to us to effect it. The government is not a superior species, or a divinity.
Change starts with us.

And if we ever want to gain respect from society for our hobby, and want to see it legal, than we need to get behind the government having some say in our hobby.

Does that mean no gas fired stills? Maybe. Or maybe just regulations that say gas (or any flame for that matter) can only be used outside away from any building's. That is a safety issue that many here don't follow or even consider until they read the beginners material.

We as a community need to get ahead of this, or risk having no input into what legal safety regulations do get put in place.

Now, that being said, I personally believe you should have to attend some sort of class before you can purchase or even run a still if it were to go legal. This would give you some sort or license or document stating you are competent with the safety aspect of the still and can now be held legally responsible for how its used and the results of its use, good or bad.

This is not unlike needing a license and insurance to drive a car.

I personally wouldn't have an issue with having to do a training session, or even having to buy a yearly license if it meant that it was legal and I didn't have to hide it.

Mdh- you bring up a much needed discussion, one that should be takes with seriousness and one that requires sobriety of thought and and an intellectual maturity. Your post shows this and for that I salute you.



Going off half cocked and spewing anti government regulation is the equivalent of reasoning with a hormonal teenager, and does nothing positive for our hobby or the advancement of legalizing it. We need to be spotless in our campaign, remember we are the ones breaking the law here, all the while asking for it to be changed. We have to change societies view of our hobby, and that is going to mean looking at it from every angle and removing any foothold they have to continue to deny us what millions of us do safely every day.

I'm sorry ranger Ric. But when your hobby has the potential to harm others through your action or inaction, there needs to be regulations. And I will never endorse the hobby if it were to be a free for all. This is why I love this site, and community as a whole. Safety of yourself and others is the first thing taught and preached here. If you need any more convincing look at the regulations on guns. They are a tool, also a toy. But they have the potential to cause massive amounts of damage. Here in Canada you can't purchase one until you prove that you can handle and use it safely. Its storage and transportation is regulated. And it works, this has dramatically reduced the number of accidental shootings, usually in instances when children get ahold of a gun.

Yak (steps off the soapbox)

[RevSpaminator]

I believe many of these questions would be pushed to the state level. The Feds say very little about the first 200 gallons of beer or wine.

Besides, for all the things that are regulated, it is still surprising to see what isn't. Chemicals in plastic food containers are only regulated AFTER problems are found. Prescription drugs are regulated but these days that's as useful as tits on a bull. How many adds do we see today asking if you or a loved one died while taking Bullshittazine, followed with the number for the law offices of Dewy, Chatham, and Howe.

This needs to be quietly pushed with as few regs as possible. Then the best practices can be developed adopted by individual states as needed.

[yakattack]

And Here is where I disagree. If we don't as a community have a say in the making of those regulations now, we are going to lose that ability.

[DAD300]

If it's legalized, some people will want everything to be "IDIOT PROOF."

You'll fail...as the idiots will find ways to blow themselves up, burn their houses down, poison themselves,... and it will be everyone else's fault! The result will be, "You need a license to do that!" OH...that's where we are today!

I've been waiting for the regulation and licensing of the average public idiot to buy gasoline. Any schmuck with five bucks can buy a couple of gallons of auto grade gasoline. The equivalent of more than a few sticks of dynamite. How is that tolerated? Because the average Joe doesn't know the potential. Ignorance is bliss.

But the average Jane knows people (a few and not every day) have killed themselves with illicit booze.

[yakattack]

If it's legalized, some people will want everything to be "IDIOT PROOF."

You'll fail...as the idiots will find ways to blow themselves up, burn their houses down, poison themselves,... and it will be everyone else's fault! The result will be, "You need a license to do that!" OH...that's where we are today!

I've been waiting for the regulation and licensing of the average public idiot to buy gasoline. Any schmuck with five bucks can buy a couple of gallons of auto grade gasoline. The equivalent of more than a few sticks of dynamite. How is that tolerated? Because the average Joe doesn't know the potential. Ignorance is bliss.

But the average Jane knows people (a few and not every day) have killed themselves with illicit booze.

Yes dad, it can't ever be idiot proof. Nothing really can. But with the proper systems in place you can mitigate many of them before they hurt or kill someone. Yes there will still be the idiots and the accident's.

Yak

[S-Cackalacky]

Yes, there actually are regulations. A barbecue for instance could not use electricity or an open flame beneath the tank in order to generate the pressure to deliver volatile gas, so instead, the gas is stored pressurized so it pushes itself out. Because of that, propane tanks must come with pressure relief features so that they do not explode if they catch on fire, possibly wrecking a fireman with shrapnel in the process, and so on. That is all due to government requirements on safety.

We're asking for stills to be legal on the open market, but we need to prove we can endorse them from a safe standpoint. Yet I know even people on here are using open flame setups without water or steam jackets. I see that as a possible issue because of public perceptions about exploding stills, and the fact that it is more than likely that upon legalization, people would sell stills that are flame-heated. What will the people we are trying to appeal to think we are asking for the legalization of?

Yes, I'm sure there are safety regulations related to the MANUFACTURE of all kinds of products. I was speaking of USING such products. We don't need to go opening some can of worms by asking for regulations as a prerequisite for legalization of the hobby. History has proven that the gooberment is quite capable of taking care of that by themselves. Safety regulations related to the manufacture of a product are an issue between the manufacturer and the regulators - NOT the user.

If someone wants to light a fire under a turkey fryer pot with 3 or 4 gallons of super heated flammable cooking oil in it, that's on them. If someone wants to do the same with a likker still and they are capable of wiping their own ass, I have no problem with that either.

[john2674]

I agree that there should be some regulations, but they should be reasonable." Short of cut and pasting the rules we live by from here"
How about this
no pressurized vessels for hobby use.(that greatly reduces the explosion hazard right there)
a list of acceptable materials for still construction, including gasket material.
Open flame stills outdoors or in dedicated buildings away from others. (open flames and indoors are bad anyway)
must have suitable fire extinguisher readily accessible.

maybe a little too far but ...how about a written exam required for hobby distilling permit?

[DAD300]

Right back to licensing...leading to taxation and abuse of regulations/enforcement.

[ranger_ric]

Yes I did go off a little last night. The point I am trying to make is we as a society are becoming more and more dependent on someone looking out for us and for heaven sakes we better watch out for that other guy also. Whatever regulation we suggest is going to be countered with much greater regulation. The compromise makes our hobby way more regulated than we want.
Do I think you should distill in an apartment complex loaded with families? NO I dont. Do I want a law that says that? No I dont. I dont want to give them any regulations that would allow them to come to my house to check on how I am doing my hobbies. I dont want to "register" a still that I might build.
Now I think we could say that you cant have a still larger than X size (I think we call it 25 gallons).
Maybe you cant be transporting more than X gallons. But in my opinion we shouldnt get too far into making the govt responsible for the users safety. We would just give up too much freedom trying to accomplish that. Because when you boil it down the government can make something against the law/regulations but they are never held accountable when someone breaks their regulation and hurts someone else. Many on this site have already proven that regulations dont stop a behaviour.
This is a great conversation. Thanks for having this site.

[rad14701]

Open flame stills outdoors or in dedicated buildings away from others. (open flames and indoors are bad anyway)

Far too limiting right there... Choice of heat source should be left to the individual... We don't need a ton of regulations, just decriminalization... All we need is the same few regulations that pertain to beer and wine... Remember, once something is carved in stone it's virtually impossible to un-carve these days... Don't get me going on overzealous laws...

[pfshine]

In life I have learned that if you ask the gov to limit your rights, they will and then some. If your'e wanting these regulations you will get them as well as much more onerous ones. I think we need to model home distilling after the New Zealand regs. If as a distiller you are asking for safety classes and licenses then the general public will think it is a much more dangerous hobby than it is. There is already laws on the books for home distillation of fuel that are crazy already. No need to add more hassle to it.

[MDH]

A lot of people said I am trying to argue for "limitations of rights", etc.

I am speaking more about what we want to be legally sold on the open market. I am not arguing to extend laws to within people's homes and tell them what or how much they can do once they have their still, I am talking about the still itself, because it is inevitable that stills will be sold if they are legalized from all sorts of vendors, and if we say, yes, we'd like to include the selling of a device which projects powerful flames onto the base of an object we are boiling an extremely flammable liquid in, for use by average John and Jane Doe, then how does that reflect on the demands of home distillers who are asking for legalization?

[pfshine]

Stills are already being sold. So are turkey friers. Anyhoo I would prefer decriminalization as apposed to legalization.

[dstaines]

MDH

It reflects nothing on the proponents of home distilling other than that some of us firmly believe that flame fired stills came be run safely at home. How old do you think distilling is? This is not new technology. Humans have been distilling alcohol for almost a thousand years. Forget electricity, it predates GAS.

Now i concede that the traditional ways are not always the best ways. But you're wrong to demonize distillers who use direct flame as harmful to the cause of legalization or decriminalization. By doing it, what are they doing except proving that it can be done safely?

[DeepSouth]

I can't even fathom how the brain works of a person who is clamoring for more government regulation. My mind just doesn't work that way. Ranger Ric, I agree with everything you said in your first post. How someone would be begging for more regulations is beyond my comprehension.

[aquavita]

Wood Fire vs. Gas Flame vs. Electric

Kinda like some shooting buddys that only shoot scatter guns... they never supported those of use that shoot semi-auto rifles until their semi-auto shotguns were lumped into a "bad" category by the powers-that-be at one point. The light-bulbs went off and many realized that once one was taken, would only be a matter of time before the rest were as well.

Never had much use for some gov busy-body trying to tell me how to live my life.

Don't care what you do, who you do it with - just don't make me have show approval or pay for your choices. You pay for your own ride.

[humbledore]

I used to do consulting work for a grill manufacturer. The VP of engineering spent most of his time testifying in law suits where some dumbass incinerated himself, his home, his family or all three. The stories were awful. Point is as S-Cack said early on, there is very dangerous stuff in our homes already. The government doesn't tell you how to run a grill. They do make sure the manufacturer has thought about safety and has instructions and warning labels. When people get through all that and kill themselves anyway, the gov't doesn't outlaw grills as a result. The same should apply here. And read your state law on home brewing. Usually just says you can do up to 200 gallons - very brief and says nothing about safety. That's what we should target.

[humbledore]

Here's a few voluntary activities in which the govt can't stop you from doing something stupid and killing yourself or others. Driving a car, shooting a gun, operating a table saw, starting a grill, riding a bike, skiing, you name it, it's a long list.

People are pretty ingenious at finding dumb ways to kill themselves, the gov't can't outlaw all of them.

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

Take a leaf out of our books. The only rule here is only make enough for yourself.
In my 22 years I've never heard of any still related incidents or anything bad about home distilling.