Getting Legal
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- Swill Maker
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:58 pm
Getting Legal
I have decided to attempt to obtain my "micro distillers license" here in KS. I have no intention of becoming a micro distillery, but considering both my and my wife's professions, being in trouble for the hobby that I enjoy so much could be life altering.
I am just beginning the process, tracking down all the federal and state required paperwork. In my state I will not be required to produce a minimum amount of taxable spirits yearly. I will be able to label all my spirits as "for research and development only".
Legally I will be allowed to produce 50,000 gallons annually, but I cannot drink that much so I will never reach that. It seems like a ton of work to go through for a hobby. I think that going this route will allow me to sell if ever I decide to.
I would love to hear any and all suggestions.
I will update this as I make my way through this process.
I am just beginning the process, tracking down all the federal and state required paperwork. In my state I will not be required to produce a minimum amount of taxable spirits yearly. I will be able to label all my spirits as "for research and development only".
Legally I will be allowed to produce 50,000 gallons annually, but I cannot drink that much so I will never reach that. It seems like a ton of work to go through for a hobby. I think that going this route will allow me to sell if ever I decide to.
I would love to hear any and all suggestions.
I will update this as I make my way through this process.
Enter witty quote that changes people's lives here.
Fellow newbies, this is a good read http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=37471
Fellow newbies, this is a good read http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=37471
Re: Getting Legal
Cool. Anybody estimates of initial cost.
Life is a journey you take alone. Make sure you do what you what makes you happy
- WhiteDevil504
- Site Donor
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- Location: Corn Country
Re: Getting Legal
I am far from an expert but I don't think that the TTB will allow you to keep in the research phase indefinitely. When I called them about using that license to get started they were leery of even granting a 6 month license to an individual business. I think for big industry or academics it might be a different story. I'd recommend you call the TTB and check because you might end up spending a boat load of money on something that only buys you a very short window of moderate security. Remember you'll still need the TTB approved location ( not a residence, it's own street address, etc), you'll have a lot of record keeping for where that ethanol is going, you'll need a business license and the associated infrastructure (accounting, insurance, etc).
Not telling you how to herd your cats, but i think if you are worried enough that a very discrete basement hobby you don't tell anyone about will end in trouble I'd just stick to brewing beer and visiting distilleries. (Or convince a friend to get into it that you can go over to work with). I don't know about Kansas but in Iowa the local law enforcement doesn't even have this hobby on their radar, they thought it fell under the home brewing laws, so as long as you're not selling, and you're not out bragging about your hobby, and your not taking mason jars to tailgate then I don't see the black helicopters coming for ya. Just my .02
Not telling you how to herd your cats, but i think if you are worried enough that a very discrete basement hobby you don't tell anyone about will end in trouble I'd just stick to brewing beer and visiting distilleries. (Or convince a friend to get into it that you can go over to work with). I don't know about Kansas but in Iowa the local law enforcement doesn't even have this hobby on their radar, they thought it fell under the home brewing laws, so as long as you're not selling, and you're not out bragging about your hobby, and your not taking mason jars to tailgate then I don't see the black helicopters coming for ya. Just my .02
Last edited by WhiteDevil504 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- kiwi Bruce
- Distiller
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Re: Getting Legal
If there is anyone from Delaware on the forum you could help. I know "Dogfish Head brewery" got a micro distillers license for their brewpub at Rehoboth Beach. The state waved it's requirement, which lowered the cost considerably, not just for DFH but it has attracted a number of start up micros to the state. A little digging by a local could get the actual costs and the real State and Fed requirements.(It's a lot easier for a State resident to get info from their Commerce Dept than an outsider) Would you then please post your results here. This can then be used by anyone else in other States as leverage, using the interstate commerce code, i.e. what the Feds allow in Delaware they must honor in other States. This has the potential of being a huge loop-hole for anyone wanting to open a micro, or just get the paper-work, anywhere in the U.S.
Getting hung up all day on smiles
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- Swill Maker
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Re: Getting Legal
My license will be 100% legitimate, by labeling products as research and development I am saying they are not for sale. Turns out as the head o research and development I will be able to test my own product. Basically this would just be for me to maintain my hobby. I will keep everyone posted.
Enter witty quote that changes people's lives here.
Fellow newbies, this is a good read http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=37471
Fellow newbies, this is a good read http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=37471
- WhiteDevil504
- Site Donor
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- Location: Corn Country
Re: Getting Legal
I understand your license will be legitimate, but it won't be allowed by the TTB for any prolonged time. From the licensing page
"Experimental Distilled Spirits Plant: An experimental distilled spirits plant (DSP) may be established for specific and limited periods of time solely for experimentation in or development of industrial spirits or sources of materials used to produce spirits or processes for producing or refining spirits. "
When I talked to them about it 6 months to a year was about the limit that they allowed. And you have to be set up as a business with a federal tax ID. Additionally, they are not going to let you simply sit around and drink your product, there are strict reporting requirements for the ethanol produced.
I'd recommend getting on the TTB site and spending some time there with the applications and accompanying forms. Once you have those down I'd give the TTB a call (unlike most government operations they are actually exceptionally helpful if you are polite), talk through it with them and make sure you're on the right path. I am all for you doing this, I just think that you are going to find this more constraining than you are anticipating and perhaps there are better ways to approach it.
"Experimental Distilled Spirits Plant: An experimental distilled spirits plant (DSP) may be established for specific and limited periods of time solely for experimentation in or development of industrial spirits or sources of materials used to produce spirits or processes for producing or refining spirits. "
When I talked to them about it 6 months to a year was about the limit that they allowed. And you have to be set up as a business with a federal tax ID. Additionally, they are not going to let you simply sit around and drink your product, there are strict reporting requirements for the ethanol produced.
I'd recommend getting on the TTB site and spending some time there with the applications and accompanying forms. Once you have those down I'd give the TTB a call (unlike most government operations they are actually exceptionally helpful if you are polite), talk through it with them and make sure you're on the right path. I am all for you doing this, I just think that you are going to find this more constraining than you are anticipating and perhaps there are better ways to approach it.
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- Master of Distillation
- Posts: 2970
- Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:21 pm
- Location: Pagosa Springs,CO
Re: Getting Legal
You need to spend ALOT more time with the TTB. Hope you don't think you will be doing your research and experiments at your house or in a residential setting. Not gonna happen legally. TTB man.
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- Swill Maker
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- Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:58 pm
Re: Getting Legal
When I start getting my ducks in a row and get some things on paper I will update this. I am just now making contact with the TTB. I will be operating as a business in a commercial property. There are still plenty of questions that I need answered as to how to proceed.
I appreciate everyone's input. This will be quite the leap, but I think it may be one that I am ready to take.
I appreciate everyone's input. This will be quite the leap, but I think it may be one that I am ready to take.
Enter witty quote that changes people's lives here.
Fellow newbies, this is a good read http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=37471
Fellow newbies, this is a good read http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=37471
Re: Getting Legal
Don't apply for anything until you have read everything they have made available. Too often people jump into the tbb permits without having a clue as to what they actually require. Not a good place to be... Applying for the permits is one of the last steps.
- Truckinbutch
- Angel's Share
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Re: Getting Legal
You are determined and that is a needed quality . You also need to examine your path in the full light of day . You have been given sound advice here that it seems you wish to ignore because it does not fit your game plan . I wish you well in your endeavor .
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Re: Getting Legal
Call me stupid but it sure sounds like an awful lot of bullshit and expense just so you can protect your professional job title while making what will still be illegal spirits from a consumption standpoint... From what I've read you are trying to get an industrial ethanol permit/license... It is illegal to drink industrial ethanol... You might want to revisit your thought process on this and just stay discrete in your basement... You aren't the only professional here - you're just the only one not willing to take chances... Either that or you aren't telling the whole story here... You need to do a more thorough risk vs reward assessment... Is it really worth all the aggravation just so you can produce your own supposedly legal spirits at a cost of $500 - $1000 a bottle...???
- kiwi Bruce
- Distiller
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Re: Getting Legal
Correct me if I'm wrong:- but wouldn't just contacting the Fed on such a venture lend enough suspicion to Warrant a little investigation into ones domestic activities and domicile? I don't like the idea of pooing on my own doorstep. Kiwi Bruce
Getting hung up all day on smiles
- Truckinbutch
- Angel's Share
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Re: Getting Legal
Likewise . You play around the band wagon and you are likely to get hit by a hornkiwi Bruce wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong:- but wouldn't just contacting the Fed on such a venture lend enough suspicion to Warrant a little investigation into ones domestic activities and domicile? I don't like the idea of pooing on my own doorstep. Kiwi Bruce
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Re: Getting Legal
Technically, no. But then again since when does the law apply to those who are supposed to enforce it.
Life is a journey you take alone. Make sure you do what you what makes you happy
Re: Getting Legal
Any available license will be time limited...wait for it...if you never pay taxes or claim income.
TTB has stated multiple times, if you have not paid taxes within a two year period of obtaining a license from them, it will cause a visit and probable suspension of the license.
TTB has stated multiple times, if you have not paid taxes within a two year period of obtaining a license from them, it will cause a visit and probable suspension of the license.
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DSP-AR-20005
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DSP-AR-20005
- kiwi Bruce
- Distiller
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Re: Getting Legal
The law applies equally to everyone, everywhere, all the time.pfshine wrote:Technically, no. But then again since when does the law apply to those who are supposed to enforce it.
- ga flatwoods
- Master of Distillation
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Re: Getting Legal
The law applies equally to everyone, everywhere, all the time.Squire wrote:pfshine wrote:Technically, no. But then again since when does the law apply to those who are supposed to enforce it.
Only in theory Squire! Reality is in play here.
The hardest item to add to a bottle of shine is patience!
I am still kicking.
Ga Flatwoods
I am still kicking.
Ga Flatwoods
Re: Getting Legal
Squire wrote:The law applies equally to everyone, everywhere, all the time.pfshine wrote:Technically, no. But then again since when does the law apply to those who are supposed to enforce it.
I'm not sure when you live but it don't now. Otherwise I wouldn't have all my metadata stored in a government database without a warrant. Go ahead and try to get their data, you would be in jail so fast on espionage charges. Fact congress and Senate are allowed by law to do insider trading but not Martha Stuart or you or me.undercover cops can buy sell and use drugs. The list goes on and on but without getting political that's all I'm gonna say. There are two classes us and the elite that don't worry about things like laws.
Life is a journey you take alone. Make sure you do what you what makes you happy
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Re: Getting Legal
[/quote]The law applies equally to everyone, everywhere, all the time.[/quote]
I'll have what he is having.
I'll have what he is having.
- kiwi Bruce
- Distiller
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- Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:38 pm
- Location: Transplanted Kiwi living in the States
Re: Getting Legal
Ditto - pass the cool aid...... spike mine please with a good shot of home made. "There are two classes us and the elite that don't worry about things like laws." There is a third class, those of us who can figure a way to wiggle under their "Radar" The ghost class.
Getting hung up all day on smiles
Re: Getting Legal
Have at it guys, I'm sure you've thought it through. One thing I learned in over 40 years of law practice is never argue unless I'm being paid.
Re: Getting Legal
There are two concepts at odds here. to whom the law applies...and to whom the law is applied to.Squire wrote:The law applies equally to everyone, everywhere, all the time.pfshine wrote:Technically, no. But then again since when does the law apply to those who are supposed to enforce it.
I finally quit drinking for good.
now i drink for evil.
now i drink for evil.
- amdamgraham
- Bootlegger
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Re: Getting Legal
The TTB grants licenses to collect tax revenue, that is the only purpose. If you want to go legit, then put together a business plan, let other people pound on it until it makes sense and then you can get into the check-writing business.. err, I mean distilling business.