need help drying out my ethanol

Alcohol is an inexpensive, clean and renewable fuel source.

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Prairiepiss
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Prairiepiss »

I don't know that I ever said you can't do it. We all know it can be done. The question is. Why do it? When its known that you can do it. But it is not cost effective at all. And takes more time and money then most people have available.

Doing something because people say it can't be done. Isn't a good reason to do something. In my book. Especially when its known it can be done.

I just hate seeing people waste time and money. To do something for no good reason.

The the gas prices spiked tomorrow. All of us are in a potential position to make our own fuel. And would take very little to change our processes to get the job done. But gas prices just don't reflect the need. Neither does performance outcomes.

The big problem is the sites like the two you posted links to. They fill people with BS. Making them think its the best thing in the world. Hell the one claims he has been perfecting his still design. With the help of engeniers. But its just a Boka two cups design. That he is not giving Bokabob any credit for. And he is charging $30 for the plans. When better designs are available here for free. It's a joke.
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rad14701
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by rad14701 »

Those links containing information from the 1980's sure aren't cutting edge... We've discussed the Charles 803, popularized by the late Robert Warren, many times... We have newer and better designs posted here in these forums that are also less expensive to build... And I'm sure newer, better, and cheaper methods of drying are also available... A lot has happened in the last 34 years...

And if all the OP wants to do is try it, then try it... But I just don't see making fuel ethanol at home a viable option... If it's just a see if you can do it thing then do it as cheap as possible... It'll be a lot of work for minimal return... That's a fact whether anyone wants to accept it or not...
John Barleycorn
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by John Barleycorn »

So, to address the original questions:

-- run it through a decent reflux rig.
-- use the sieve sources that were provided.

Or do we still need more commentary?
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S-Cackalacky
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by S-Cackalacky »

John Barleycorn wrote:So, to address the original questions:

-- run it through a decent reflux rig.
-- use the sieve sources that were provided.

Or do we still need more commentary?
John, whether you agree or disagree with the commentary thus far, this IS a discussion topic and all opinions are welcome here as long as they're not disrespectful to the OP. He doesn't seem to have any problem with others expressing their opinions of the the merits of producing alcohol fuel - pro or con. It's his prerogative to proceed and it's the prerogative of other members to offer up convincing information to try to change his mind.

Thank you for reiterating information that has already been provided, but please don't make attempts to shut down the discussion.
Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
Snuffy-ga

Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

I have learned a bunch since my original posting. Some links provided by PM's to me have helped and some reading that has nearly made me blind.

Some of the interesting things are really that making fuel you are not restricted by materials because your not drinking the stuff. All my foreshots (typically at least 25-30% higher in abv) that I was saving are now the primary source of my product to dry, of course combined with a good run of spirits. Even before putting the reflux still into action I am now working with almost 83 ABV material. A much better start. I have come up with a desiccant that is easily available and cheap that has no special disposal requirements. It can also be used a number of times. I am working on a dryer that if made with the proper materials could even be used to increase the yield of spirits.

Go ahead nay sayers, I expect it but I am not deterred. This little project has kept me off the streets for a while now and I am seeing results that could pan out well, maybe for all of us. It has cost me nothing. Also I continue to receive communications with the TTB regarding my application for a small AFP plant. It looks to be in the final stages so I am sort of excited. At least my still will be registered.

And let me just ask if I may, does everything we do need to be cutting edge? Is a pot still cutting edge? Much of what we do has been done for hundreds of years. Not hardly the evening news material.
Snuffy-ga

Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

LAUGH OUT LOUD!!! now we get into opinions. In on persons life the pot still works just fine for him but in another s "it is not the right tool for the job".
In my opinion I think I can make this work and have a decent additive for my car and truck.

Thats OK by me. This is what the forum is for. Thanks for your input.
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bearriver
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by bearriver »

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S-Cackalacky
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by S-Cackalacky »

Snuffy, sure the pot still will work, but as you have indicated yourself, you'll need to add another step (process) to get your fuel to the desired purity. Whereas, a proper reflux still would allow you to accomplish what you desire with a single distillation and no further processing. All the reading I've done on the subject seems to indicate that 96% is sufficient purity for your fuel tank.
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Snuffy-ga

Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

I wasnt indicating that I will use a pot still, obviously a reflux is needed. I was indicating that everything we advocate is not "state of the art" and we like it that way. We use bread yeast instead of distillers yeast, we use a pot still when it will do what we want even though a reflux will do it better. The hammer and the screw is a nice touch too, however if you were careful and worked a bit slower you could have driven that screw in, lol.
So I will continue to use a pot still for the drinkables and have a reflux for the rest. Like my friend from the Carolina's I dont want to wait all day for the thing to drip when I can run it and be done with it. The fuel is another story however. I will need to learn the quirks of the reflux side of things.
Snuffy-ga

Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

My application for small AFP was approved. My still is registered and I almost feel safe, almost. I have permission to use my pot still as a stripping still then reduce to 40% to run through the reflux. It was much easier than I thought. I got a lot of help with the application from the NRC specialist. I am on the way I think. At least my equipment is registered. Now I start keeping records of what I use and make.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Bayou-Ruler »

Snuffy-ga wrote:My application for small AFP was approved. My still is registered and I almost feel safe, almost. I have permission to use my pot still as a stripping still then reduce to 40% to run through the reflux. It was much easier than I thought. I got a lot of help with the application from the NRC specialist. I am on the way I think. At least my equipment is registered. Now I start keeping records of what I use and make.

Congratulations on the approval of your AFP permit.
Bayou Ethanol
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http://www.BayouEthanol.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Snuffy-ga

Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

Started stripping with the pot still then rerunning with the reflux. Now getting 88-93 ABV without any driers or sieves. I run this stuff through my lawn equipment with no problems. About a 25% mix with reg fuel.
I read some college info that indicated I could corn grits to absorb more water but I haven't had too much success with that. They said that corn absorbs the water but not the alcohol. Seems like it would work. Anyone here tried it?
Snuffy-ga

Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

I had to cut way back on the mix. 25% was too high and caused some issues like chugging and knocking. running about 5-10% now with no problems.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by carbohydratesn »

They said that corn absorbs the water but not the alcohol. Seems like it would work. Anyone here tried it?
I haven't tried it, but I can tell you that corn soaks up alcohol just as well as it does water. So that isn't going to give you any separation.

If drying alcohol was that easy, and cheap, and natural/chemical-free/non-industrial/safe, everybody would be doing it :P

Why strip mash when you can just 'soak' the water out of the alcohol by adding more corn? We sure are wasting a lot of electricity and propane heating up these liquids for separation...and hey, your grains would already be hydrated for your next ferment!

Some things would be easier for us that way - but unfortunately, that just ain't how it works.

Edit: So apparently, I was wrong - cornmeal can be used as a dessicant - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol#Mo ... desiccants" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

It's probably much less effective on a hobby scale compared to an industrial scale, though...it'll be an expensive and difficult way to dry your ethanol.
Snuffy-ga

Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

just found a chinese company to offer a sample of zeolite, up to 5 kilo for free, just pay shipping so I will try that and see if it is worth the pursuit.
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MitchyBourbon
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by MitchyBourbon »

Epsom salts. It's cheap. You can use it, let it dry and re-use it. However, I have never tried this and I don't even know if it would actually work. You will have to Google how to do this. Apparently, you have to heat the Epsom salt first in order to dry it before you can use it.
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45South
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by 45South »

Hi snuffy, if you can peruse a copy of David Blume's book "alcohol can be a gas" in your local library, I think you will find it covers all the feedstocks, stills, ignition, carburetion-injection, dehydration questions you probably have.
I have run a 1500 liter still on free wood and turned out 95% product from free feedstock, but in practical terms it seemed like I was trying to find a perpetual motion machine. Too much work for too little return. And Petrol here is over $2 dollars a liter, so there was motivation. All the best for your journey, Norm.
Snuffy-ga

Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

Thanks. At least at this point I am not trying to replace oil based products. I am interested in just making an additive that can, and has increased my mileage some. Just having a bit of trouble getting it pure enough. I do use it in higher concentrations in my yard equipment but the engines are easier to work with. I am not into a lot of re-configuring of the fuel system so for me if I have to do more than add an extra filter or change a setting it is too much work. I see how it could be done though. Just readjust the needle valves and go.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by drmiller100 »

you need to fix your reflux still to get 95 percent. make the column taller. From there the 5 percent water really does not matter. Yeah, they say it soaks up water, but if you do the research you find there is no ethanol/gasoline ratio percentage the water falls out unless you drop below 30 degrees or something like that.

from there, ethanol by volume has 20 percent less power. with the water, the number is really 25 percent. So, you need to do something to get the carb to put more fuel through - bigger main jet, choke on part way, or something.

a fuel injected engine with 02 sensor will adjust up to 15-25 percent usually really happily, which means you can run about 30 to 50 percent ethanol. Unplug the vacuum line to the fuel regulator and that will bump your fuel ratio some at part throttle all by itself.

as for octane, ethanol has a very high octane, so you can increase compression and get some of your mileage back.

also, you can run a BUNCH of ethanol and make more power - instead of 14:1 air to fuel, at WOT drop it to 9:1 and the ethanol will super cool the air and make more power. The rice grinder turbo boys are all going to E85 for this reason - super cheap relatively cheap horsepower/octane.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by FreeMountainHermit »

Snuffy-ga wrote:
S-Cackalacky wrote: All the research I've read says that ethanol actually LOWERS your MPG by as much as 20%. Also, unless your vehicle is E85 ready, you'll need to make some modifications to the engine to allow it to run on ethanol fuel.
I will concentrate on an additive at this point. Also the ethanol is what they add to get the octane levels up. the Junk they are producing for us to run in our cars is pretty low level stuff. The alcholol is what perks it up. Thats why indy cars run it and rockets burn it. More bang for less buck. The initial cost will be higher but I will be trying to work it out.
Not sure if you are being fed the straight skinny on horsepower increases as we needed to run TWICE the amount of alky versus gas to see an increase in the drag bikes as well as huge compression ratios (16-18/1).

Indy cars as well as our drag bikes ran methanol rather than ethanol which may have a difference.

Hope you find a solution that works.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by FloridaShine »

Check out this site: http://imakemygas.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Zeolite 3A Molecular Sieve
Converts 89% Ethanol to 95%-99%
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