need help drying out my ethanol

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Snuffy-ga

need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

So I have a pretty good amount of product at near 75 ABV. But that is 25% water and crap. Besides using corn grits or Zeolyle 3A at $300 for 2 kg, how can I get the remaining stuff out to make a product clean enough to add to an automobile?

I have done searches and there doesnt seem to be a cheap answer that I can find. Some say the zeolyle is cheap but if it is I have not been able to find a good supplier. Can anyone help?
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Prairiepiss »

Run it through a still that can produce 95%.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Fastill »

Build a better still, Like a good reflux design, and pull 96% in a single run.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

all good answers but none on point. Anyone have a supplier for a dryer? Even with a better still it needs to be near 99%
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by bearriver »

http://www.chemguide.co.uk/mechanisms/e ... hanol.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

This process uses readily available chemicals. Over my pay grade, but you may make sense of it...
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Fastill »

Snuffy-ga wrote:all good answers but none on point. Anyone have a supplier for a dryer? Even with a better still it needs to be near 99%
You are going to need a vacuum rig to get over 96%, using a still to achieve it. Most ethonol for fuel is NOT 99% pure ethonol.
A.D.D. and HD don't go together. This hobby takes time and dedication to learn and do it right and safe.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Tokoroa_Shiner »

You probably won't get 99% ethanol distilling at home. Unless you have access to a vacuum still and benzene. Even if you did. As soon as it was exposed to air it would draw the water out until it reached its azeotropic strength of 96.5% ethanol.

Best way to fix what you have, build a nice reflux still. Dilute what you have to below 40% and run it again.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by moosemilk »

Tokoroa_Shiner wrote:You probably won't get 99% ethanol distilling at home. Unless you have access to a vacuum still and benzene. Even if you did. As soon as it was exposed to air it would draw the water out until it reached its azeotropic strength of 96.5% ethanol.

Best way to fix what you have, build a nice reflux still. Dilute what you have to below 40% and run it again.
+1

Even if you distill to 99% abv, the second that hits air, it's gonna suck the moisture into it.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

I wish to thank every one for their responses. I have received some good answers via PM and when I get it worked out I will post some methods. In the mean time I just heard that my small fuel plant application has been forwarded for review and that is the final step so I hope I will be legally making fuel very soon. I'm a stubborn cuss and will try hard to work it out.

For the most part the answer is still a good distillation process and Zeolyle 3A. The combination should get the job done. 97% is the goal, at that point it can be denatured and added to gasoline.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

Tokoroa_Shiner wrote:You probably won't get 99% ethanol distilling at home. Unless you have access to a vacuum still and benzene. Even if you did. As soon as it was exposed to air it would draw the water out until it reached its azeotropic strength of 96.5% ethanol.

Best way to fix what you have, build a nice reflux still. Dilute what you have to below 40% and run it again.
That is in the works. I dont plan any big dollar vacuum and benzine operation but with the micro sieve technology I should get 97% after running nice and slow through a good reflux setup. Now after using pot stills up to this point I have to learn the reflux methods so I will be asking plenty questions my good people. At least I have something to drink :)
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by bearriver »

Wait, are you making fuel or drinking spirits?
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

I was making spirits and doing pretty well. The wife and I are both pleased at the results of the product, the ageing and the flavor. But there is always room for improvement. I began running much more slowly and started producing a higher "octane" stuff and have switched my efforts to producing fuel. My small AFP license is in the final stages of approval and I am looking at a more complex reflux still instead of my old pot still. I now have some good links for zeolyle products to dry it out so I don't need near the purity I thought I did.

Fuel to add to my vehicles is just out of my reach, but not for long. There are others around me in my agricultural area making fuel but they are very closed mouth about the process. (Probably because they are making shine too) I bought some from them, fuel that is, and experimented with it. By just adding 2 qts to a 20 gal full tank I added almost 5 mpg hwy so I am kind of worked up about it. Not sure what the limits are. I need more research there. I hope I don't burn the tops out of my pistons.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by S-Cackalacky »

Snuffy-ga wrote:I was making spirits and doing pretty well. The wife and I are both pleased at the results of the product, the ageing and the flavor. But there is always room for improvement. I began running much more slowly and started producing a higher "octane" stuff and have switched my efforts to producing fuel. My small AFP license is in the final stages of approval and I am looking at a more complex reflux still instead of my old pot still. I now have some good links for zeolyle products to dry it out so I don't need near the purity I thought I did.

Fuel to add to my vehicles is just out of my reach, but not for long. There are others around me in my agricultural area making fuel but they are very closed mouth about the process. (Probably because they are making shine too) I bought some from them, fuel that is, and experimented with it. By just adding 2 qts to a 20 gal full tank I added almost 5 mpg hwy so I am kind of worked up about it. Not sure what the limits are. I need more research there. I hope I don't burn the tops out of my pistons.
All the research I've read says that ethanol actually LOWERS your MPG by as much as 20%. Also, unless your vehicle is E85 ready, you'll need to make some modifications to the engine to allow it to run on ethanol fuel.

No need to denature what you make if it remains on your own property and goes into your own fuel tank. If you add it to gasoline, it is effectively "denatured".

Also, be aware that if you expect to make enough fuel to run your vehicle(s), its production will become a full time job. Think about the logistics involved in the process - acquisition of fermentable materials, power expense to heat a still, the time it takes to ferment and distill, storage requirements, disposal of the spent fermentation material, etc.. Not to mention that it will probably cost more per gallon than a gallon of gasoline. Need to ask yourself if it's worth the headache.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

I will concentrate on an additive at this point. Also the ethanol is what they add to get the octane levels up. the Junk they are producing for us to run in our cars is pretty low level stuff. The alcholol is what perks it up. Thats why indy cars run it and rockets burn it. More bang for less buck. The initial cost will be higher but I will be trying to work it out.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by bearriver »

Snuffy-ga wrote: More bang for less buck.
You are wrong. It is more bang, for WAY more buck. Last I checked race fuel cost over twice what regular gas costs. Indy cars run nitromethane (Nitro Meth), which is $20 per gallon if you buy the cheap Chinese stuff in bulk. It is absolutely nothing like ethanol. Plus it's not street legal in the US.

Do you have a high compression motor? If not, you are terribly misguided. You need a motor that is designed to take advantage of high octane fuel if you plan to reap it's benefits. A recent consumer report has proven running premium fuel in a car designed for regular fuel provides no benefits whatsoever.

Putting race fuel in your average commuter car isn't going to give you much, if any more "bang". If you want a faster car you are FAR better off running the fuel your car was designed to run on, and invest in aftermarket performance parts. If you want to effectively run high octane fuel, then you need to drop some serious coin on a high compression motor that is designed for it.

Making your own fuel is a lovely idea. Unfortunately it's simply not practical for 99.999% of us in the real world.
Last edited by bearriver on Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by wv_cooker »

Now wait a second guy's High octane race fuel and ethanol have nothing to do with each other. High octane race fuel is expensive almost $9.00 per gallon here. The ethanol that is used in race cars is e85 or 85% ethanol and 15% regular 87 octane gasoline. It can run high horsepower race cars very efficiently if you set up the carburation system correctly for them. It really has nothing to do with the compression ratio of the engine but compression is built by using more fuel and air to run these engines. It takes approximately 30 % more fuel to run e85 than it does to run race fuel but you can purchase it cheaper.

The problem is e85 has at least a 4 to 5 % water content and filter systems are expensive. So longevity goes down on your engine by using it just as it does when running an engine on methanol. So in the long run e85 is just as expensive as race fuel and that is why folks stick with race fuel. Plus you get more wear out of your engines with petroleum based fuels because of there top end lubricating abilities. How do I know this..... I do own 3 race cars and one of them is an 800 hp super late model in which I have ran e85 ethanol before.

I had looked in to using saw dust and converting the lignans in it to sugar and fermenting it to make my own e85. However the cost of sulfuric acid to convert the lignans to sugar is cost prohibitive as well. So unless you have millions to invest into studies and plenty of time and knowledge to invest, your car already runs on a partial ethanol mixture most places in the USA now a days.

Also a well producing azeotropic reflux column is all you need to make e85 then a good filtering system on your car will get the rest of what you need but don't expect great longevity from the engine.

I hope this helps guide this thread along the correct path!
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by bearriver »

wv_cooker wrote: I do own 3 race cars and one of them is an 800 hp super late model in which I have ran e85 ethanol before. [...] I hope this helps guide this thread along the correct path!
Do you consider E85 race fuel a viable option for the at home hobbyist?
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by wv_cooker »

bearriver wrote:
wv_cooker wrote: I do own 3 race cars and one of them is an 800 hp super late model in which I have ran e85 ethanol before. [...] I hope this helps guide this thread along the correct path!
Do you consider E85 race fuel a viable option for the at home hobbyist?
No as I said cost too much to make it. You can buy it in some places for around $3.00 a gallon now realizing it takes almost twice as much to run a car efficiently your now at $6.00 a gallon to equal regular gas that doesn't include the cost of equipment so what would you guess.

There are many threads on this forum pertaining to the same question and no one has been able to do it efficiently yet.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

I have the time, the desire and the means, not necessarily the money so I am going to chip away at this idea. There must be something more than we are seeing or the TTB would not be offering a free license to produce the stuff.

I have done some research and one of the things I will try is using corn powder or just good old grits to absorb the water. Good thing about that is once you have used the corn several times you can still cook it and make more alcohol. I have already said I don't have all the answers, hell at this point I don't even know all the questions but I am going to give it a try. And I will post occasionally just what I have run into and what successes I have. I learned a long time ago to not be proud which is one of the reasons I am on this forum. If I find out I am completely wrong I will tell everyone so the same effort wont be wasted again. I very much thank all those who have commented on my naive ideas and I hope something works out.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by bearriver »

Your best first step towards success is obtaining an azeo producing still, as already mentioned. If your not drinking what your making, a still can be built at a very low cost with cheap materials. You also don't need drying agents . Ethanol over 95.6% ABV will just suck up the moisture from the air undoing your efforts.
Snuffy-ga wrote:There must be something more than we are seeing or the TTB would not be offering a free license to produce the stuff.
It's part of a relationship with corn. 15 billion gallons of corn ethanol are projected to be produced in 2015, in the US alone.

They want would be ethanol fuel producers to be as successful as possible. Almost every time a US citizen fills up at the gas station, %10 of that fuel is burning food in the name of green energy. It is another intentional result of crop subsidization programs.

The government heavily subsidizes soy and corn farming, and has been since the 1930's. That means they are paying participating farmers to not grow anything but these crops. This manipulates the market price of corn to artificially low levels, and the market price of "specialty crops" goes up. They do this for several reasons, of which all revolve around the same idea. Grow corn.

It's all about the money Snuffy. :ewink:
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by wv_cooker »

The government also subsidizes large ethanol fuel producers, That is why they can make it cheap enough to sell to the public. They get paid to make it.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by S-Cackalacky »

And who pays (subsidizes) the fuel producers to make it - you do with the taxes you pay. So, you are actually indirectly paying more for that 10% ethanol gasoline than what it says at the pump. Many people are living under the misguided delusion that the ethanol makes the gasoline at the pump cost less. You'll find that out when you make the stuff and realize it's costing 7, 8, 9 dollars a gallon to produce. As far as the cost of building or buying a still - you'll never see any return on that investment either - money up a bears ass (scuse me Bear).
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by bearriver »

Well said Cack. Without getting political, It costs more energy to manufacture ethanol than than the ethanol is capable of outputting. :problem:

I am mildly paranoid, and have entertained a few different conspiracy theories about this subject. :roll:
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by wv_cooker »

S-Cackalacky wrote:And who pays (subsidizes) the fuel producers to make it - you do with the taxes you pay. So, you are actually indirectly paying more for that 10% ethanol gasoline than what it says at the pump. Many people are living under the misguided delusion that the ethanol makes the gasoline at the pump cost less. You'll find that out when you make the stuff and realize it's costing 7, 8, 9 dollars a gallon to produce. As far as the cost of building or buying a still - you'll never see any return on that investment either - money up a bears ass (scuse me Bear).
+1 S-Cack and lets not get into the double taxation from road tax as well as state tax and so on after we pay for making it in the beginning. It is like most other great ideas in this hobby, it has been tried many times without success, so if snuffy wants to go for it he is more than welcome and we wish him every success, but it will have to be without support as it has been tried many times before.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

I can live with that, but please if you have info that may help me up the path I ask please pass it on.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by S-Cackalacky »

Snuffy, you need to accept the negative along with the positive. Much of the negative information in your thread related to ethanol fuel is well founded. Some here have pointed you toward the use of a reflux still. That would be about the most important piece of advice you've gotten here. If you plan to proceed, even with the downside that has been pointed out, the only other thing I can suggest that might help would be to look for the least expensive source of fermentable materials that you can find.
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Prairiepiss »

The info you are presenting here. Is not accurate. There are many sites out there that will fill your head with bullshit.

Race fuel is generally not ethanol. And e-85 isn't race fuel. Although some use it for that. In order for it to produce higher HP. A lot more of it needs to be used.

Alcohol octane ratings. Bwahahahahahaha. Have a read through this. Straight from sunoco race fuels.
http://www.racegas.com/article/11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I've used E-85 as a test in my work van. That is designed to run either. And my findings say the 20% less efficient is pretty close. Gas mileage drops roughly 20% when E-85 was used.

I would like to see your cost analysis. Of what this fuel production will cost per gallon. Don't forget to include your time. It's not free. Even though many act like it is. How much do you plan to produce and or use a week? And what the fuel cost in your area is? I just filled my van up at $2.99 a gallon for regular unleaded. I couldn't touch that price even with a free feed stock. Oh yea what are you using for feed stock? How much does it cost you? Unlimited supply?

Or are you after a race fuel? If so what are your plans for it?
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by John Barleycorn »

Gads! Price analysis, subsidies, conspiracy theories, personal time? Gents, let's take a step back and enjoy the endeavor. :D

I do a lot of fishing. If my objective was to eat fish, I could buy it cheaper at the fresh fish counter in the local supermarket. Then again, I could get it even cheaper in the frozen food isle ... or cheaper yet, in a can during a can-can sale. But still, I fish. :crazy: Go figure!

Snuffy, if you're making fuel, please keep me informed. Enjoy the hell out of climbing the fuel ethanol learning curve, and by all means please share what you discover. I for one, am particularly interested in hearing some details wrt the molecular sieve ... which was the original subject of this thread ... how you set up the sieve, your 3a material to water content ratio, filtering rates, losses, and final strengths ... you know, the good stuff!

... and BTW, I really could care less if it costs more than the E15 down the street ... somehow I don't get the feeling that's an overwhelming concern for you at this point either. :wink:

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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by Snuffy-ga »

I have no problem accepting the negative. While i am not from the "show me" state I guess in some things I just want to find out for myself. I hate being told "you cant do that!" I would rather work at the problem to see if I can fix it. I am not a Don Quixote but I want to exhaust my own efforts. I am retired with a little time and the "ethanol curve" doesn't bother me at all. Cost analysis be damned. If I think I can do it then I will try. The good ole Marine Corps try.

I am getting a better reflux style still so that I have less water to work with and I am looking at websites like this http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_lib ... ual12.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I will continue to drink what come out of my pot still. :D
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Re: need help drying out my ethanol

Post by rad14701 »

Knock yourself out trying to prove us and academia wrong, but I highly doubt it's gonna happen... Fuel ethanol has to be distilled to as high a %ABV as possible and then can be polished using a drying agent, but drying agents can only do so much... The numbers speak for themselves... You aren't the first person to come here thinking they can come up with a better method, and you won't be the last... Some folks just have to repeat the same failures that others have made over the years... If it was that easy, and worthwhile, ethanol would be more commercially available... The reason it isn't is because it cannot be done in a profitable manner... Not to mention the greater amount of byproducts that need to be dealt with...

Good luck... You're gonna need it... Hopefully you're retired and more wealthy than most...
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