Making ethanol for fuel

Alcohol is an inexpensive, clean and renewable fuel source.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

Hi guys,

I've starter on my fuel still, it has a 100 gallon boiler, 7ft X 5in, reflux column, first 5ft packed with stainless Steel scrubbers, I'm using slant plates and 1in X 18ft coil to condence, I'll up load some pics soon, just looking for feedback
Last edited by Magreil on Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rad14701
retired
Posts: 20865
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by rad14701 »

Please refer to The Rules We Live By because unless you are a legal distiller, with proper permits, there is to be no discussion of boilers larger than 30 gallons... And that is up from 15.5 and then 25 gallons... And if that is a picture of a 100 gallon boiler, delete it before this topic gets removed... If you have a fuel permit then that's a different story and, if so, please post your permit number in your member profile signature to avoid future problems...
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

Hi rad14701,

Thanks for your reply, a fuel permit is not required where I live, I'm based in ireland, I'm just looking for feedback on my design.
rad14701
retired
Posts: 20865
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by rad14701 »

Magreil wrote:Hi rad14701,

Thanks for your reply, a fuel permit is not required where I live, I'm based in ireland, I'm just looking for feedback on my design.
Then post your location in your user profile and state in your signature that fuel distillation is legal where you live... And do you have a link that explains that fuel distillation is legal without permits in Ireland...??? You need to cover your ass here...
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

I'm here as I'm making fuel for my car, I'm not causing trouble or asking for it either
rad14701
retired
Posts: 20865
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by rad14701 »

Magreil wrote:I'm here as I'm making fuel for my car, I'm not causing trouble or asking for it either
Right, so make the suggested adjustments to your profile...
User avatar
Bushman
Admin
Posts: 17988
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:29 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Bushman »

I decided to try and find out what the laws are in Ireland. I did not find any official site but found this comment by a person in Ireland making biodiesel fuel.
I would agree with Mat Simis that the approach of the Revenue is illogical and contradictory but not draconian. I started making my own biodiesel 4 years ago. I make 150 litres every 2 weeks, it takes about 3 hours and costs 14 cents per litre( includes chemicals and electricity but not labour.)

I contacted the revenue service in Waterford and an officer came out to visit me. He explained that I would have to register as an Authorized Fuel Warehouse and helped me complete the 2 page form. When it came to the section where I needed to submit an architect drawn plan of my property, a health and safety audit and an environmental impact study, he just stroked through them as not applicable to an enterprise of my small scale.
I now send them a statement every 3 months detailing how much fuel I have used on the road and how much as heating oil with a cheque for the duty.
My road fuel costs a total of 56cents per litre and I sleep well at night.
I found the revenue services to be very approachable and helpful.

I believe there is a place for small biodiesel producers.
If you want to see biodiesel being made I demonstrate the process every second Saturday at my workshop in Lismore , County Waterford.
Phone 0863169230 for details and directions or visit the Ireland Biodiesel forum at http://www.biodiesel.infopop.cc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
We have a size limit of 30 gallons for alcohol but are willing to exceed that size for fuel if it is legal where you live. Rad's comments are just trying to keep you following the rules we live by here on the forum. Again my quote is not from a reliable source but just what I found trying to research it.

PS: We make legal craft distillers also prove they have a legal license and they then can post beyond our size restrictions in the Craft Distillery section. We do this as we are trying to get home distilling legalized and by limiting our boiler size it doesn't appear as though we are trying to cheat the Government out of revenue by selling illegally.
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

You guys are totally Wrong, a licence to make fuel in Ireland does not exist, I make fuel ethanol, I'm allowed to make it, For the last time, I AM NOT MAKING DRINKING SPIRIT.. STOP POSTING OFF TOPIC COMMENTS PLEASE, I know you guys that make spirits for drinking, no matter how small your craft is, need a licence to do that.... but fuel is different where I'm from... I'm so annoyed at this crap, I think I might start drinking it now :D seriously though, no one is breaking the law here OK!!!!

I'm here to talk to like minded people on producing FUEL, not drinking spirit, this part of the forum is about alcohol for fuel, if I drank my alcohol I'd be dead....as it contains toxic levels of Methanol.... a question you seem to have passed, instead you assume I'm doing wrong, if I want to drink whiskey or any other spirit I'll buy a bottle as its not something I'd actually do tbh
Last edited by Magreil on Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
smokineod
Novice
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: Next to the bent tree and the crazy neighbor!

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by smokineod »

Doesn't matter if they are wrong by your standards. These are the rules of this forum and they are steadfastly stuck too! If you can't do what is simply asked then go post on Facebook or something. Have an excellent day!
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

There wrong by any standard, you can't drink methanol...
Facebook or something... that's your level of intelligence ,!?!
smokineod
Novice
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: Next to the bent tree and the crazy neighbor!

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by smokineod »

Oh you can certainly drink it! Might not be a good idea thou....

But anyway, they're just asking you to prove that it's legal. If you can't well then your violating the forum rules and need to step off. Pretty easy to understand.
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

If you produce 2,500 litres or more biofuels a year, or use them as motor fuel on which duty has not been paid, you will need to contact us so that we can make arrangements for you to account for the excise duty due on any products set aside, or delivered for use, as a motor fuel.
Note: If you have produced less than 2,500 litres in the last 12 months, or if you expect to produce less than this amount in the next 12 months, you may be an exempt producer. If you are an exempt producer you are only required to keep production records (see item 2 in the above table). See paragraph 4.2.1 for more information.
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

smokineod wrote:Oh you can certainly drink it! Might not be a good idea thou....
That's exactly why I don't make it...that's a pretty stupid thing to say really... you can't drink methanol... it's toxic you nut....
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by NZChris »

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ubstitutes
3.5.5 Bioethanol producers

Producers of bioethanol must hold a distiller’s licence and obtain approval of plant and production process. Guidance is contained in Notice 39 available from our website.
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

NZChris wrote:https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ubstitutes
3.5.5 Bioethanol producers

Producers of bioethanol must hold a distiller’s licence and obtain approval of plant and production process. Guidance is contained in Notice 39 available from our website.
O my god, this is crazy, that's in the UK, England, I'm from Ireland, did you not read any of the previous posts or just decide to jump to wrong conclusions like the others
smokineod
Novice
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: Next to the bent tree and the crazy neighbor!

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by smokineod »

Magreil wrote:That's exactly why I don't make it...
If your not making it then what do you make?

What do you ferment to get enough fuel to even justify the effort?

In the US it's hard to justify in MHO to even do this. With the work involved and cost of fermentables I just don't see it as do able. It's why all large scale producers are subsidized by the government or it wouldn't be very profitable and the large tax write offs they get.
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

smokineod wrote:
Magreil wrote:That's exactly why I don't make it...
If your not making it then what do you make?

What do you ferment to get enough fuel to even justify the effort?

In the US it's hard to justify in MHO to even do this. With the work involved and cost of fermentables I just don't see it as do able. It's why all large scale producers are subsidized by the government or it wouldn't be very profitable and the large tax write offs they get.
In their embalming process, the ancient Egyptians used a mixture of substances, including methanol, which they obtained from the pyrolysis of wood. Pure methanol, however, was first isolated in 1661 by Robert Boyle, when he produced it via the distillation of buxus (boxwood).[38] It later became known as "pyroxylic spirit". In 1834, the French chemists Jean-Baptiste Dumas and Eugene Peligot determined its elemental composition.[39]

They also introduced the word "methylene" to organic chemistry, forming it from Greek methy = "alcoholic liquid" + hȳlē = wood (patch of trees), with Greek language errors: "wood (substance)" (Greek ξύλον, xylon) was intended, and the components are in the wrong order for Greek. The term "methyl" was derived in about 1840 by back-formation from "methylene", and was then applied to describe "methyl alcohol". This was shortened to "methanol" in 1892 by the International Conference on Chemical Nomenclature.[40] The suffix -yl used in organic chemistry to form names of carbon groups, was extracted from the word "methyl".

In 1923, the German chemists Alwin Mittasch and Mathias Pier, working for Badische-Anilin & Soda-Fabrik(BASF), developed a means to convert synthesis gas (a mixture of carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and hydrogen) into methanol. US patent 1,569,775 was applied for on 4 Sep 1924 and issued on 12 January 1926; the process used a chromium and manganese oxide catalyst with extremely vigorous conditions—pressures ranging from 50 to 220 atm, and temperatures up to 450 °C. Modern methanol production has been made more efficient through use of catalysts (commonly copper) capable of operating at lower pressures. The modern low pressure methanol (LPM) was developed by ICI in the late 1960s US 3326956 with the technology now owned by Johnson Matthey, which is a leading licensor of methanol technology.

Methanol is one of the most heavily traded chemical commodities in the world, with an estimated global demand of around 27 to 29 million metric tons. In recent years, production capacity has expanded considerably, with new plants coming on-stream in South America, China and the Middle East, the latter based on access to abundant supplies of methane gas. Even though nameplate production capacity (coal-based) in China has grown significantly, operating rates are estimated to be as low as 50 to 60%. No new production capacity is scheduled to come on-stream until 2015.

The main applications for methanol are the production of formaldehyde (used in construction and wooden boarding), acetic acid (basis for a.o. PET-bottles), MTBE (fuel component and replacement for the very volatile diethyl ether) and more recently for the formation of methyl esters in the production of bio-diesel. In China, demand is expected to grow exponentially, not only caused by a growing internal market of the traditional applications, but accelerated by new applications, such as direct blending (with gasoline), Methanol-To-Olefins (e.g. propylene) and DME. Methanol can also be used to produce gasoline.
User avatar
res
Novice
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 2:59 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by res »

Sounds really interesting Magreil, :thumbup:
I dare say the membership would be happy with a link to a reputable site that confirms your assertions, I hope you find it.
Cheers.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
Winston Churchill
User avatar
Swedish Pride
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2644
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:16 am
Location: Emerald Isle

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Swedish Pride »

I think you do need a licence pal
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/excise/min ... cence.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

What is an Auto-Fuel Trader’s Licence?
From 1st July 2012, Section 101, of the Finance Act, 1999 (as amended by the Finance Act 2012External link) requires all Auto-Fuel Traders who produce, sell, deliver or deal in, or on, any premises mineral oil (i.e. hydrocarbon oil, liquefied petroleum gas and substitute fuel) for use for combustion in the engine of a motor vehicle, to take out an Auto-Fuel Trader’s Licence.


not that I feel your way of breaking the law is any worse than our way of doing it, just passing on the info so you don't tell the wrong people you make fuel without an licence
Don't be a dick
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

res wrote:Sounds really interesting Magreil, :thumbup:
I dare say the membership would be happy with a link to a reputable site that confirms your assertions, I hope you find it.
Cheers.
https://youtu.be/C1SDAgLn-tk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
User avatar
res
Novice
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 2:59 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by res »

Magreil wrote:
res wrote:Sounds really interesting Magreil, :thumbup:
I dare say the membership would be happy with a link to a reputable site that confirms your assertions, I hope you find it.
Cheers.
https://youtu.be/C1SDAgLn-tk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Sorry, I meant something pertaining to it being legal in your area.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
Winston Churchill
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

Swedish Pride wrote:I think you do need a licence pal
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/excise/min ... cence.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

What is an Auto-Fuel Trader’s Licence?
From 1st July 2012, Section 101, of the Finance Act, 1999 (as amended by the Finance Act 2012External link) requires all Auto-Fuel Traders who produce, sell, deliver or deal in, or on, any premises mineral oil (i.e. hydrocarbon oil, liquefied petroleum gas and substitute fuel) for use for combustion in the engine of a motor vehicle, to take out an Auto-Fuel Trader’s Licence.


not that I feel your way of breaking the law is any worse than our way of doing it, just passing on the info so you don't tell the wrong people you make fuel without an licence
That's fair enough, I have been producing fuel for my generator for the past 10 years from willow grown on my own land, land which have been past down many generations, before combustion engines were invented my people used wood to heat themself's, I do understand that for commercial uses a licence is required by law of government, but for your own use only, produced on your own land, common law supersedes corporate law and statuds.

I am a free man, a living man and as such am entitled to live, without harming others in a manner that suits myself.

I'm here to learn, to be safe in my work and to share my experience with like minded people.

So can we give this a rest guys and move on ???
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

res wrote:
Magreil wrote:
res wrote:Sounds really interesting Magreil, :thumbup:
I dare say the membership would be happy with a link to a reputable site that confirms your assertions, I hope you find it.
Cheers.
https://youtu.be/C1SDAgLn-tk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Sorry, I meant something pertaining to it being legal in your area.

It's not illegal because I produce for myself
smokineod
Novice
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: Next to the bent tree and the crazy neighbor!

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by smokineod »

Still unproven that it's legal man. Thusly your still breaking the strictly held forum rules. I'm sure this thread will be locked shortly cause you clearly aren't getting it. Good luck in your activities.
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

smokineod wrote:Still unproven that it's legal man. Thusly your still breaking the strictly held forum rules. I'm sure this thread will be locked shortly cause you clearly aren't getting it. Good luck in your activities.
I have the same permit as you I guess and 90% of everyone else here, the difference is I'm not drinking my produce, instead I'm using it as a form of energy

What kinda permit do you have ???
smokineod
Novice
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: Next to the bent tree and the crazy neighbor!

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by smokineod »

You clearly haven't read the required reading. Start with "The Rules we live by" and then on to Cranky's for some spoon feeding. Enjoy, maybe you'll understand where every single person that has posted is coming from.
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

smokineod wrote:You clearly haven't read the required reading. Start with "The Rules we live by" and then on to Cranky's for some spoon feeding. Enjoy, maybe you'll understand where every single person that has posted is coming from.
Just because you make smaller amounts than me doesn't make me worse than you, don't talk with your mouth full of crap
smokineod
Novice
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: Next to the bent tree and the crazy neighbor!

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by smokineod »

Yea your clearly not gonna last very long here. Good day sir!
Magreil
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by Magreil »

smokineod wrote:Yea your clearly not gonna last very long here. Good day sir!
Long enough to make a complete Hippocratic of you is good enough
User avatar
skow69
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3230
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Cascadia

Re: Making ethanol for fuel

Post by skow69 »

Magreil, there is no reason to be insulting. All they are asking for is a link to a government document that verifies that you can make fuel without a permit. It is not an unreasonable request because virtually everywhere else on Earth a permit is required. Why not just post the verification and be done with it? Then we can move on like you want to.
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
Post Reply