SPP Machine Begins

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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by BigSwede »

I've got to say, if this cutter concept fails, and I'm referring to the mechanism and blade rather than any sort of sensor, I'm going to be bummed, because this thing has been a huge amount of work. I have no idea why I went in this direction rather than simply adapt some off the shelf cutter, but once started, I needed to finish it. I have confidence in the mechanics of the solenoid, it's the cutter blade itself that worries me. It needs to have decent longevity to make it all worth while.

Anyway, here's the auto-cutter mechanism, minus the actuating sensor.

Blades fresh out of the furnace, wrapped in stainless foil to protect from oxidation. These were heat treated to Rc 60. Those coils in there were scraps of SPP to space the pieces. Chisel is at the bottom.
sppm45.jpg
As mentioned, I tested them and they passed with flying colors, but 30 SPP cuts does not equate to 5,000+ cuts. Next task was to create a mechanism using a pull solenoid to integrate everything. It ended up being quite a chore, because this sort of device has a violent action, and the materials all had to be top quality and made to a good tolerance, or things would wear and break prematurely.

The solenoid is mounted on a base of aluminum, and the cutter mechanism next to it. All the parts laid out for final assembly:
sppm51.jpg
The chisel blade runs in a brass track, a good bearing surface for steel. Added a steel bridle device that the solenoid could pull on, and two straps. A steel pin holds it all together:
sppm56.jpg
sppm57.jpg
At the solenoid end, another steel pin connects the straps to the solenoid proper. Layout, length, were all tricky because the stroke had to be correct.
sppm61.jpg
The feed of the SPP strand into the cutter has to be accurate and tight. I cannibalized some old parts from a machinist dial indicator and a length of 3/8" copper tube, and these allow full adjustment for the feed; no way for the SPP to jam up or miss the cut hole. Mounted the 10A SSR at the end with some heat sink grease. The entire mechanism acts as a heat sink. Shouldn't be an issue as the solenoid only draws a half amp or so.
sppm63.jpg
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by BigSwede »

TY Rockchucker, I am happy with how it turned out. All I have to do is engineer and mount the sensor that actuates the cut. I'm going to go initially with Dad300's thought on a self-generating cut sense. I'm going to mount a piece of very thin spring steel below the cutter which will complete the circuit to actuate the solenoid. Hopefully, the violence of the cut will eject the SPP section and break the circuit, resetting the solenoid. If it doesn't work, there are other options.

It all boils down to the chisel.

Some more pics for the technically-minded out there! :mrgreen:
sppm65.jpg
sppm70.jpg
Slightly OT, I FINALLY got some of the copper I had bought from a guy on eBay to complete my project. I needed about a dozen male adapters, very simple ones, 3/8" C X 1/4 MPT, but the dude blew me off and didn't ship. I had to open a dispute on eBay to get the stuff. It was still 1/2 the price of buying commercially, but the delay really hacked me. These will all be part of the condenser plumbing for the MixMaster - going to plumb with hard copper from the base of the rig, rather than have vinyl tubes hanging from the still.

Also, anyone who has watched the MixMaster being built knows it has a strong element of Steam Punk with rivets and an old-fashined industrial style - how's this for a hand wheel for the mix valve? :wink: Yea, or nay? I think it's kind of cool. Stole it from an old coffee grinder.
mixhan01.jpg
And there's a nice view of my shop, to me, a happy place. Big rack with all sorts of raw stock just to the right of the hand wheel.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by BigSwede »

Powered the cutter today by simply manually activating the solenoid - perfect function, slices right through with no deformation. All that's left to do is engineer some sort of SPP length sense to activate the cut.

I am a bit worried about that part, but if it proves fiddly, there are always timers of various kinds to fall back on. If you Google "industrial process timers" or similar, there are thousands of results and it can be pretty confusing. For those not wanting to roll their own from a 555 chip or similar, Auber instruments has a perfect timer for this sort of thing, not bad at $35.

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=115

I forgot I even had this thing, but for another project, many years ago, I had mounted one of these into a nice box with two 120VAC outlets, dirt simple. All I have to do is plug in the solenoid directly. The timer is programmable (to the hundredth of a second) to do exactly what we want... wait X seconds for the coil to build, activate the cutter, then do it again, forever.

I tested it to wait five seconds, then energize for 0.2 seconds. Pulled those numbers out of thin air, but they are all adjustable. 0.2 should be fine to make the cut.
sppm73.jpg
sppm74.jpg
All you'd need to do with a timer like this is to start your SPP winding, do a test run for maybe a minute, but measure the time accurately. Then, measure the length of the SPP coil. Do some math, determine your winder makes X" of SPP per Y unit of time, and then program the cutter timer to cut the lengths desired.

This'll be a fall back if the mechanical sensing doesn't work.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by DAD300 »

I don't know, but if I had a timer that worked, it is probably more accurate. The only drawback, is that the timer will fire with or without SPP in the cutter. While the SPP making the mechanical contact will not fire without...SPP. Mechanical switch would save the cutter.

At 375 rpm, I measured ten inches of wire, made an inch of SPP in ~ten seconds. So, it needed a cut stroke every 2.5 seconds.

You're shooting low on the number of cuts you'll be making. I calculated a gallon of mid sized SPP was ~18,000 pieces, give or take a hundred.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

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DAD300 wrote:
You're shooting low on the number of cuts you'll be making. I calculated a gallon of mid sized SPP was ~18,000 pieces, give or take a hundred.
That's what has me concerned. If the cutter wears out, it'll be a lot of work to make another, vs. buying a $8 off-the-shelf cutter of some sort that gets bolted to a plywood board, and is actuated by pneumatics. Something like that could be replaced in a few minutes.

There are machines that make springs, and they have similar cutters that operate 1/second or faster, and do so for a long time. I don't think they use exotic materials, just good quality tool steel for the cutters. We'll see how it goes.

I connected my cutter device directly to the timer, and it worked perfectly. 0.1 second activation was enough for a full cut. I did make this thing so that the cutting stops not by having the chisel edge bang against a flat, but by having two large surfaces contact instead of the chisel edge.

Tomorrow - going to try a run using either the timer or a length sensor, give it a serious workout. Assuming all goes well, I'd like to mount everything on a t-slotted aluminum extrusion and create a dedicated SPP machine that doesn't need to be mounted on a drill press or lathe.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by DAD300 »

Your machine is very robust. Your cutting edge will hold up fine and can be sharpened many time to remove nicks...I bet it will not nick. The hand cutters I used, I never sharpened, but the pivot joint did get sloppy and ruin a couple.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by rager »

good stuff , id like to see this thing in action! keep up the quality work. I wish I had a shop like that to work in.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by BigSwede »

I have GREAT NEWS for anyone thinking of building one of these, or something similar.

Dad300, your simple concept of having the SPP trip a sensor works perfectly. It's scary-effective, better than anything I could do with a timer. :D
sppm75.jpg
I'll be honest, after I remembered that timer unit I had stashed away, I was very tempted to blow off the SPP actuated auto-cut mechanism, but I said I would try it, bought a little SSR for it, so I rigged up a simple sensor just for a test. It's nothing more than a piece of plastic, a thick plastic washer, and some very thin music wire to act as a trip. I bent the end of the trip wire way down so it cannot get tangled with the SPP. The 120 degree trip angle protrudes about 1/4 of the SPP diameter into its path.

Contact is made between the SPP coil and the copper tube that feeds the SPP strand into the cutter, and is guaranteed by the normal lateral wiggly movement of the SPP as it winds.

Quick and Dirty:
sppm76.jpg
12VDC feeds the solid state relay input through the SPP strand and the sensor, and of course controls 120VAC into the solenoid.

I slowly fed a SPP strand into the device. <chunk> Instant reset. The action was much faster than even the 0.1 second energizing I tried with the fancy electronic timer. It's so fast, you can barely see it, just hear it. The violence of the cut ejects the SPP nugget strongly, instantly resetting the circuit.

Some thoughts - this is a zero crossing SSR. This means that at a minimum, it (the SSR) will be energized for at least 1/60th of a second, or 1/50th for most of the world at 50 Hz. I think this SSR behavior eliminates chattering or hysteresis issues in the moment in time when the cut is being made, when the nugget might be rattling/vibrating around in there for an instant. Other SSR's that slam on/off whenever might cause solenoid chatter, buzzing, or other issues.

I don't know if this method would work with a slower cutter, like a pneumatic cutter, unless it could be rigged to finish a cut once started. But it is insanely perfect for a solenoid cutter.
sppm77.jpg
No doubt in my mind that I'll be using this. Got to make a better, more robust, sensor mount.

I'm going to run the machine, make a video. If the cutter proves durable, I'm going to pick up a geared AC or DC gearmotor off eBay, looking for 120 to 250 RPM. Something like that would be ideal for SPP. You don't need accuracy, just good torque. A DC motor could be speed adjusted. Then, as I mentioned previously, the whole rig will be mounted onto a single T-slotted aluminum extrusion, for a stand-alone SPP machine. That way, don't have to tie up a drill press or lathe.

TY Dad300! Obviously I'm psyched and excited. :thumbup:
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by DAD300 »

Cool...I like it when simple stuff works.

I once spent a week designing a opto fired solenoid to hold a piece of rubber car molding while it was drilled. $300usd fix per machine.

At the end of the week a tool setter asked if I would look at his design. He had made a holder for a cut off paint brush that worked perfectly...free scrap from the shop...aahhh

Simple is good...
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

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I am obviously excited about this thing, it's a lot of fun when work comes together... separate components do their jobs to produce a desired outcome.

I started shopping for a suitable DC gear motor. Most of them are too slow. Or too expensive. But I did find an interesting and VERY reasonably priced gear motor right on Amazon. Hard to pass this up:

Image

$16, it's a new surplus 12VDC gear motor originally designed to actuate a car power seat. The ACME threaded spindle needs reworking, though. Placed the order, it's on it's way, along with an inexpensive Chinese PWM unit for speed control.

Then I remembered I had a couple of boxes of old motors and such stashed away, and sure enough, in one box was a beautiful CMC DC servo with a solid steel planetary gear box, pulled from a CNC machine. This thing was probably $700 new. I removed the encoder (not needed), applied 24VDC to it, and away she went, smooth, quiet, probably 400 RPM. It's going to be killer.

All I need to do is make an adapter for the output shaft that will accept my 1/4" bits, mount it all on a suitable base, and hopefully it'll be puking out SPP at a good rate, very soon! :ebiggrin:

Obviously need to finish my still build too, or there's no point in making SPP.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by manu de hanoi »

Odin wrote:
BigSwede wrote:clean c*nts, strong ejection, and no visible wear, knicks, or dimpling on the chisel./quote]

:wtf:

Great to see you guys stepping this up! Awesome! And please do provide to other homedistillers, if you can. There certainly is demand!

Here's a picture of my bigger SPP for my 5 inch columns ...
Image
:wave:

Regards, Odin.
Hi Odin, you shouldnt call your new packing "SPP", there is no spiral nor prismatic involved
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by manu de hanoi »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJixFumTspo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

If I may, this machine has about nothing in common with the one I use now. But it may be enough for someone patient for personal use.

BTW it's not MIg wire as the vid says, it's wire for making SS ropes
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by BigSwede »

Hi Manu - I contacted you earlier for an SPP quote, but decided to pursue this on my own. Lots of respect for the work you do... you've got some nice stuff on offer.

I believe in the video, you used a 555 timer circuit to trip the cutter, and I thought I'd go in that direction, but as I said above, the simple contact sensor worked spectacularly well.

I've got everything I need - power supply, gear motor, speed control, cutter, and wire feed mechanism. It just awaits integration.

Cheers!
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by manu de hanoi »

BigSwede wrote:
I've got everything I need - power supply, gear motor, speed control, cutter, and wire feed mechanism. It just awaits integration.

Cheers!
My quote will seem a whole lot cheaper in a few weeks time :D Have you made a raw estimation of how long your rig would have to run to fullfill your target ?
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

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manu de hanoi wrote: My quote will seem a whole lot cheaper in a few weeks time :D Have you made a raw estimation of how long your rig would have to run to fullfill your target ?
What you asked was very reasonable, but I am a DIY fool, and will happily spend 2X or more - very typical of me. :shifty:

No idea how long it will take. I have 4 kilos of wire to start the ball rolling.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by Bob Loblaw »

Swede - I'm looking forward to the videos of that thing cranking out SPP
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

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Thanks Bob - I've got enough time and effort into it at this point that I decided to "do it right", so I ordered some structural aluminum t-slot extrusions and hardware from Bosch Rexroth:

http://www13.boschrexroth-us.com/Framin ... px?units=1

It's great stuff if you've never worked with it, very easy to make a stable, strong mounting, platforms, and locations for the various mechanisms can be adjusted via the t-slots. It can be pricey, but for a project this small, not too bad.

I've got 700mm of this stuff coming as well as some 90 degree gussets and other assorted pieces.

Image

I'm planning on fitting an ER-16 collet spindle onto the gear motor and hopefully keeping everything tight and strong. But it'll be a couple weeks. In the mean time, I'm finally finishing my still build, if I can deal with the heat; it's all outside in a metal building, and cracks 110 f with ease. :cry:
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by Hound Dog »

Sounds like a high tech building cooling system project is next on the "round tuit" for you :D
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

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Hound Dog wrote:Sounds like a high tech building cooling system project is next on the "round tuit" for you :D
Oh, man, I dream every year of finally fixing the heat (and cold) problem in my shop. Work becomes seasonal... in the summer, I'm pouring sweat and about to faint, winter time, freezing. I've got one of those HUGE fans about 4 feet across, it helps a little. But blows crap all over the place. :esad:

What I need to do is wall off the work shop area properly, and add an AC unit. Just got to get around to it. And save the pennies, it'll be expensive.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

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Pics of the build... I know it's not a still, but it'll definitely help one out when it's done! :ewink:

Waiting on the structural aluminum, still lots to do. Picked up some widgets from Amazon. Amazon is LOADED with interesting and generally cheap Chinese gadgets. Most of them work, do what they're supposed to do. Got a 24VDC 15A switching power supply for the spindle motor, and a 2KW DC PWM speed control for the spindle. My wife is still OK with all these little packages arriving every 2 days. :angel:

The spindle motor, dragged out of a dusty old junk box. Brushed PM DC, it's from some surplus CNC machine, has a 10:1 planetary gearbox.
sppm81.jpg
To mount the SPP bits, I needed something that would accept a 1/4" diameter round. I could have just made a simple sleeve, but decided to go fancy/complex, and instead modified a cheap ER16 collet adapter to fit. Normally these things are scary hard steel, but I got lucky... browsing Amazon, a reviewer stated "it's soft stainless steel" which is normally bad, but perfect for me. I could cut it. $13, where a proper, USA-made ER16 collet adapter usually costs about $125... or more. For this, cheap and soft is good.
sppm83.jpg
Cut it down, made a press (interference) fit SS sleeve to fit the motor shaft. The ER adapter was metric, the motor imperial.
sppm85.jpg
Once pressed together, the sleeve and collet holder are permanent. Drilled and tapped it for a pair of set screws.

These are the "production" bits which I hardened.
sppm87.jpg
sppm89.jpg
These ER collets are slick, will hold a range of diameters with great force and precision. I turned a pair of bronze wire guides for the bits, mounts with a simple set screw. I couldn't tell the speed of this motor, but visually, it's right there around 400 RPM, and the PWM device will allow good control of the speed.

The spindle motor will be horizontal, and will feed a horizontal winding of SPP directly into the cutter, which will be mounted vertically. This will let the SPP get ejected to the right, also allow easy access to the length sensor.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

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More work - here's the prototype machine which worked well and is something that anybody reasonably handy could fabricate and set up on a drill press.
sppm30.jpg
But it needed a bit of refinement. One of the issues faced by any SPP machine is the wire tension, which can be, needs to be, pretty high. As the spool unwinds, there's a lot of popping, start and stop, because the wire does not feed as smoothly as it should. Like a spool of thread, the location of the wire changes as it exits the spool... travels back and forth.

I'm going with the "up and over" angle arrangement. This certainly isn't the only way to go, but it is compact.

The new wire feed mechanism. Very similar, but with improvements. And much neater.
sppm91.jpg
The big improvement is a heavily spring-loaded idler pulley (lower right) that is the first pulley the wire encounters. It's designed to smooth the start-and-stop jerkiness that the prototype has.

For those not familiar with linear motion, this is a recirculating ball linear way in miniature. Total overkill, but I gathered these in many sizes surplus over the years, so I put a tiny instrument-grade device to work. In larger sizes, say 3 inches by 2 inches, the loads these things can handle is rated in tons, and modern CNC machinery with iron tables weighing a thousand pounds, ride on similar devices with near zero lateral play. They are awesome devices.
sppm93a.jpg
Machined a small steel "truck" that gets bolted to the device, and into that goes the pulley shaft. A spring connects the truck to the end of the rail.
sppm93c.jpg
sppm93d.jpg
The wire routes through 3 more pulleys to smooth the feed before it goes "over the top" (sounds like WW1 :ebiggrin: ) through an adjustable pulley.
sppm94.jpg
The goal is smooth, continuous feed with an adjustable tension, and as I mentioned earlier, I found tensioning the wire spool itself was easier and more effective than tensioning the wire as it travels to the spindle. The latter... tended to be full on or full off. Maybe I didn't execute it properly.

Anyway, waiting on the aluminum t-slot extrusions to integrate motor, spindle, wire feed, and auto cutter. Can't wait to turn it on and hear <chop> <chop> <chop> ... :moresarcasm:
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by DAD300 »

I like that you make the wire change directions a couple of times. It seems to take the kinks out.

You're going to need room on your vertical plate for larger rolls of wire when you move to 30+ pound spools. Or an off machine support for the larger spools. It's the next step to making the wire cheaper!
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

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DAD300 wrote:I like that you make the wire change directions a couple of times. It seems to take the kinks out.

You're going to need room on your vertical plate for larger rolls of wire when you move to 30+ pound spools. Or an off machine support for the larger spools. It's the next step to making the wire cheaper!
:o Haven't even thought of that... I guess in theory I could set up a big spool close to the machine, then run the wire through about a dozen winds on a small, empty spool, and from there, route the wire as normal. Hopefully, the wire would feed OK.

On the top side; wire feed device, and simple wire clamp:
sppm96.jpg
I had some time today, so I made 2 more cutters from A2 steel. The machining is the easy part. The hard part is getting these dead hard, then correctly tempered. A2 transforms at about 1760 f. or 960 C. I like A2 because it's "air hardening", meaning I don't have to dunk it in some liquid. I can wrap it in SS foil, which protects it from oxidation and scale.

For fun - bench muffle at 1760, parts are coming out...
sppm95a.jpg
sppm95b.jpg
sppm95d.jpg
sppm95e.jpg
Two more chisels, one at 45 degrees - the original is 30 degrees - and a second with a round, angled notch like you see in some wire cutters. Tried them both after tempering, they all seem to work well.

Thanks for following this far. I know most of this is machine shop stuff, but the original SPP machine was designed to be produced by anybody handy with tools, and it does work well. That'll be it until the stupid structural aluminum makes it in, and everything can come together.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by waster »

BigSwede, are you taking pre-orders yet?
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

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waster wrote:BigSwede, are you taking pre-orders yet?
:ewink: When, or if, that happens, it'll be with the blessings of the mods of this forum. The steel wire to run the machine is about $20/kilo. I haven't the slightest idea of any sort of price structure, even if I will sell SPP at all. This project was started purely for the fun and satisfaction. But thanks!

Manu de Hanoi sells SPP at a very good price. It's a shame that there aren't more sellers. I suspect I am about to find out why that is soon, when the machine runs.

I am on vacation now, no shop work. It'll start up toward the end of this month, August.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by Bushman »

BigSwede wrote:
waster wrote:BigSwede, are you taking pre-orders yet?
:ewink: When, or if, that happens, it'll be with the blessings of the mods of this forum. The steel wire to run the machine is about $20/kilo. I haven't the slightest idea of any sort of price structure, even if I will sell SPP at all. This project was started purely for the fun and satisfaction. But thanks!

Manu de Hanoi sells SPP at a very good price. It's a shame that there aren't more sellers. I suspect I am about to find out why that is soon, when the machine runs.

I am on vacation now, no shop work. It'll start up toward the end of this month, August.
I believe Odin also sells SPP in various sizes depending on the diameter of the column.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by Odin »

We stopped selling it, actually. Need all we can make for our own stills.

Regards, Odin.
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by BigSwede »

Much progress... 80% finished.

I had to wait for the structural aluminum. It came, then I went on a needed vacation. Back home, I got some good work done. More work than I thought, but it's been fun. Basically, only electrics to go.
sppm97.jpg
The spindle was mounted on a pair of uprights, plenty rigid.
sppm102.jpg
The all-important wire-feed mechanism sits on a slide that allows adjustment right and left, height as well. The cutter was hard to place. In the end, I mounted it below the main table, and the SPP will have to turn 90 degrees and drop down into it. This is no problem, I've tested strands and they flow through smooth copper pipe with ease.
sppm106.jpg
sppm115.jpg
To Go: Needs the PWM module for the motor mounted and wired, as well as the trons for the auto cutter. It needs a cup, chute, or some other sort of container to capture the cut SPP. Can't wait to try it!
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Tokoroa_Shiner
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by Tokoroa_Shiner »

Wow. Once again I am amazed by your work.
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BigSwede
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Re: SPP Machine Begins

Post by BigSwede »

Been wiring all afternoon. I may have a problem. I know we have some really smart electrical people that can possibly keep me from screwing this up. A diagram is probably needed:
sppm116.jpg
I have mounted a 24 VDC switching power supply to the frame of the machine. The case of the supply is earth grounded via a regular North American 3-prong 120 VAC plug; thus the entire machine is earth grounded, which is normally good.

The 24 VDC goes to a PWM board, then to the motor. That part is fine. I'd also like to use the 24 VDC to activate the auto cutter. The way it's set up, the auto cutter body is part of the frame, thus it's earth grounded as well, right to the plug in the wall. My plan was to have the cutter body ALSO carry the negative DC line, and the cut sense probe, insulated from the rest, carries +24VDC. When the SPP strand completes the circuit, the SSR gets 24VDC across its input, delivering 120 VAC to the solenoid. CUT.

Diagram is not clear, the cutter body is connected to the frame and is also earth grounded.

My question - I'm not sure this is possible. Can the earth grounded machine frame also act as "ground" for the 24 VDC circuit? My gut says yes, but I already let the magic smoke out of one supply messing around a month ot two ago. Don't want to do it again.

Thanks for any help.
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