Coolant system build

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Coolant system build

Postby Fraser » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:09 am

I'm working on a coolant system using propylene glycol in a closed loop for my still. I'm running a 200L boiler with two 5,500 W electric elements. I picked up this chest freezer on the cheap and put 1/2 copper pipe with flair fittings through the lid. Those are two 1/2 inch copper wort chillers that I put inside, and I'll put a bunch of containers of ice inside too. Anyone used this solution before and dialed into the optimal temperature where it's not too slushy to pump through but still cold enough to work efficiently?

Any advice or thoughts are welcome. Thanks.
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby bluefish_dist » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:18 am

I think you will quickly find that the freezer becomes overwhelmed by the heat input. Power in = power out. If you look at the amp draw and voltage of the freezer it is probably no more that 1200watts. If you are pushing 10k of power into your coil it will probably warm up quickly and soon the freezer will not be able to keep up.

You might be able to make it work with a large reservoir and just try to keep that cooler. But even then you will only slow the rate of warming. I use two 300 gallon totes to cool 8000w and then I can get a 20-30 deg temp increase. I have considered going to 3 when I add more power.
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby Fraser » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:28 am

I'm only using both elements for rapid heat up, then I can shut one of them off and run the single element at around 60-70% power. I think you're right though. Even with a lower power usage this may not be enough. I"ll see about adding some additional reservoirs, maybe outside. I could always get some more coils and submerge them in there let the ambient temp of the water cool it down. Thanks for the input.
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby still_stirrin » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:32 am

Use your closed loop system to heat your swimming pool. That'll work...guaranteed.
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby Fraser » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:36 am

There is a swimming pool about 100 feet away. I'd need a pretty large pump to move that water up there though. Pretty good idea though!
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby The Baker » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:07 am

Fraser wrote:There is a swimming pool about 100 feet away. I'd need a pretty large pump to move that water up there though. Pretty good idea though!


Not having a pool....But actually it is not silly.
Your pool would already have a pump to recirculate the water through the filter. Seems logical you could connect into that system which should be more than powerful enough to push the water 100 feet in an ordinary garden hose. Tee off (near the pool, no need for additional long hoses!) a hose (may need to be big, like the line just from the pool pump to the tee), with a tap at the tee, returning additional water to the pool when the tap is 'on'. Then if the pressure to the still is too high use that as a by-pass to reduce the pressure. And of course have a hose returning still cooling water to the pool.

This is exactly what I am doing. In my garden rain-water tank (maybe 1,200 litres ??) I am installing a submersible pump. Maybe 7,000 litres an hour, 15 foot head. I have an outdoor power socket close. Bigger pump than I need (but the smallest of that type available) and can also be used to water the garden or whatever. Doesn't use a lot of power and only cost $90. Bypass will reduce pressure as needed. and no trouble pushing the water (say) 60 feet.

Afterthought:
Probably I over-thought the system, in your situation. No doubt the pool needs topping up from time to time.
Just feed the still with cooling water from the tap and run a hose to the pool with the warm water from the still.
With the advantage there is no salt or chlorine in the water you use, some of that stuff helps corrode stainless.

P. S. From time to time you will want warmed water to start a ferment. And to wash up. Use that same warmed water, from a joining fitting on the hose-to-the- pool. G.

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Re: Coolant system build

Postby bluefish_dist » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:30 am

Don't use a pool with an open loop system. If you get a leak you risk getting tca from the chlorine. This has happened to one distillery already and they pretty much had to level it and rebuild.

You can do a closed loop and just run glycol in the distillery. No chlorine in the distillery.
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby Yummyrum » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:48 am

Fraser .... good on you for specifyng Propylene Glycol :thumbup:

We should always specify FDA approved Propylene Glycol when referring to distilleries as the less informed could take it as the the extremely toxic Ethylene Glycol used as engne coolant by mistake . The word antifreeze seems to get bandied about as if they are the same thing often .
It certainly makes for a good story when the media want to add an extra beat up to a moonshine bust .
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby rgreen2002 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:59 am

Have you considered air.... allow the majority of the heat to dissipate into the air with the assistance of a fan and/or radiator system? Run to the air before the freezer.... this will allow for dissipation of heat and decrease overall wattage the freezer would need to keep up with... Or use a bath instead of the freezer....?
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby Fraser » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:16 pm

All good input. Thanks a lot. I have some thinking to do about what may work here. My space is limited but I may be able to get a big radiator without spending a lot and set it up outside in the loop. Put a big fan behind it. I'm sure it'd be more efficient in the winter, but may work well enough now to give me a little reduction in heat.
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby kimbodious » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:20 pm

check out BamaBill's cooling tower here
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby shadylane » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:20 pm

rgreen2002 wrote:Have you considered air....?

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=56652
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby rgreen2002 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:45 pm

shadylane wrote:
rgreen2002 wrote:Have you considered air....?

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=56652



Exactly!!! Shady has done damn neary everything... :lol:
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby djc » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:52 pm

Bluefish, what is tca?
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby bluefish_dist » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:28 pm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_taint Not as common in distilleries, but is almost impossible to get out once it's established. A good idea to avoid chlorine if possible.
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby Fraser » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:23 am

I think I'm going to run the loop outside through the wall and into a good sized car radiator with an industrial fan behind it, then bring the line back in to an in-line pump to go back through my chiller. That solution would cost me probable $150 total in parts and lumber and should bring down the temp well enough to run this still for a long time.
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby rgreen2002 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:16 pm

Amazon has this thing: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LNGRTQI/_e ... 3HLVRPMLAI

It's a 12 X 12 Water to Air Heat Exchanger and only runs about $75 bucks. Maybe they have one bigger.

Actually...this 12x12 is only $66: https://www.amazon.com/Water-Heat-Excha ... HGFZSMPSKY

And here is a 20x20 for about $150: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LU0VCMO/re ... B00LNGRTQI 169,000 BTU!!! (for what that's worth using it as a cooler and not a heater...)


In the end....they all just look like radiators...maybe a visit to a local U-pull could net a bigger one that could be cleaned up. (Cooling purposes only... :mrgreen: )
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby Blarney Stoned » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:09 pm

Fraser wrote:All good input. Thanks a lot. I have some thinking to do about what may work here. My space is limited but I may be able to get a big radiator without spending a lot and set it up outside in the loop. Put a big fan behind it. I'm sure it'd be more efficient in the winter, but may work well enough now to give me a little reduction in heat.


Friend Fraser, ebay is full of rads like the one listed below. I use a smaller but similar cooler that I robbed off a friends sprint car in conjunction with a 55gal. blue rain barrel with garden hose fittings. Works a treat.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-BBC-GM-Fabr ... 18&vxp=mtr
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby droo1966 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:29 pm

I run my system through a tropical radiator (Ford Falcon) with the thermo fans running non stop. With a 55 US gallon tank and 2400 watts of power it suits my needs. (I use a 15 US gallon boiler)


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Re: Coolant system build

Postby Oldvine Zin » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:10 am

droo1966 wrote:I run my system through a tropical radiator (Ford Falcon) with the thermo fans running non stop. With a 55 US gallon tank and 2400 watts of power it suits my needs. (I use a 15 US gallon boiler)



OP is using a 50+ gal boiler with 11000 watts of power, his results may vary. Oh and TCA is a big thing, being in the wine industry it's a big concern for us - no bleach in the winery and we stopped using corks.
Last year I was visiting one of our distributors and noticed an opened bottle of whiskey on the receptionists desk, since it was 9AM I commented about starting your morning with a shot, she replied with no this bottle is a sample of cork tainted whiskey,I had never heard of that before in high test but it did have that nasty wet cardboard aroma.

Bleach and natural fibers (wood or cork) with alcohol makes nasties in your product

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Re: Coolant system build

Postby Fraser » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:20 am

Thanks for all the good advice. We're going to get a high velocity 18 inch attic fan and mount it inside of a 30 gallon barrel (on its side) with its bottom cut off. We're going to mount a nice sized radiator on the end of it and hang it on the side of the building. May look a bit like a jet engine, but should work pretty well. It should knock a lot of the heat out of the loop for sure.
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby Pikey » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:06 am

Oldvine Zin wrote:
.......... natural fibers (wood or cork) with alcohol makes nasties in your product

OVZ


No more "oaking" - then ? :shock:
Centuries of using cork - all wrong !

Wow - we live and learn eh ? :)
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby still_stirrin » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:41 pm

Pikey wrote:
Oldvine Zin wrote:
.......... natural fibers (wood or cork) with alcohol makes nasties in your product

OVZ


No more "oaking" - then?...Centuries of using cork - all wrong!...Wow - we live and learn eh?

You left off the most important word...."bleach". OVZ's quote says:
Olivine Zin wrote:Bleach and natural fibers...

It is the chemical interaction between the bleach and the fibers with alcohol products which produce the TPA toxicity, not the natural fibers (and alcohol alone). The key caution is "bleach".
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby Pikey » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:05 pm

still_stirrin wrote:
Pikey wrote:
Oldvine Zin wrote:
.......... natural fibers (wood or cork) with alcohol makes nasties in your product

OVZ


No more "oaking" - then?...Centuries of using cork - all wrong!...Wow - we live and learn eh?

You left off the most important word...."bleach". OVZ's quote says:
Olivine Zin wrote:Bleach and natural fibers...

It is the chemical interaction between the bleach and the fibers with alcohol products which produce the TPA toxicity, not the natural fibers (and alcohol alone). The key caution is "bleach".
ss


I would doubt anyone would mix bleach with their alcohol - especially in view of the "Chloroform" thread :shock:

I assumed that to be what he was referring, because he said "Bleach AND ......" , so simply concentrated on the "natural fibres"

Your interpretation seems somewhat divergent from mine - do you think he was meaning cork or wood which had been bleached then ?

In the uk we would have said "Bleached natural fibres such as .... "

is "Bleach AND natural fibres... " a normal way of saying "Bleached natural fibres..." in the USA ? :?
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby ShineonCrazyDiamond » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:32 pm

How pedantic do we have to get, and what's the purpose?
The man said what he meant, and it seemed quite clear to me. Any further interpretation is solely for your own agenda. I hope if you choose to quote any one else it is done so in context. The above is not, and then speculated upon. You want to know what he meant...ask him! Appears to be right here.
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby Pikey » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:41 pm

ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote:How pedantic do we have to get, and what's the purpose?
The man said what he meant, and it seemed quite clear to me. Any further interpretation is solely for your own agenda. I hope if you choose to quote any one else it is done so in context. The above is not, and then speculated upon. You want to know what he meant...ask him! Appears to be right here.


Not pedantic at all - If I read what he wrote, I make no apology.

If he meant something he didn't write - SS seemed to imply a different meaning which I had not considered, I investigated this and asked a question about our different languages, which is yet to be answered - your attack is completely unwarranted :roll:
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby ShineonCrazyDiamond » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:31 pm

He said bleach and fibers. You quoted him out of context, and made a condescending remark that implied he was rejecting oaking and corks.

It's manipulation, and you have a well enough grasp on the English language to know so.
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby bluefish_dist » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:00 pm

The reason I brought up Tca's, which are caused by mold, bleach and fibers was the suggestion to use a pool as a cooling reservoir. That has been done and it resulted in the distillery being rebuilt due to contamination. http://nyloveswhisky.com/lost-spirits-update/
Bleach in a distillery is not a good choice. Best to avoid it even for cleaning since it can sit in drains and still cause issues.
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby Pikey » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:52 pm

ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote:He said bleach and fibers. You quoted him out of context, and made a condescending remark that implied he was rejecting oaking and corks.

It's manipulation, and you have a well enough grasp on the English language to know so.


Please substantiate that remark - My grasp of UK Eng[Edit- L]ish is sound.
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Re: Coolant system build

Postby ShineonCrazyDiamond » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:20 pm

I agree. I wasnt attacking your comprehension, I was acknowledging it.

Which is why this

Pikey wrote:I investigated this and asked a question about our different languages,


Was obsurd to imply that language was a barrier.

My only complaint is that you cut words off a quote to perpetuate an unprecedented statement by OZ. It's not right to do. Outside that, if you were only kidding, or truly confused, that was lost in translation.

I do not wish to continue derailing this otherwise informative and safety minded thread.
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