New here... with ideas...

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zombie911
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New here... with ideas...

Post by zombie911 »

Hi all,
My friends call me Zombie... for good reason. I have recently finished a new (unproven) design in the form of an 18 gallon (10 gal main pot/ 8 gal thumper/secondary pot) connected via a constant recirculating Scottish hot box. My Lyne arm is also a recirculating hot box design that feeds a jacketed condenser vs. a more traditional worm. I know... WHAT?
I'll try to figure how to post picts. to explain. This whole setup is going to be electric, and thus my point in posting. I am in the process of setting up a 220v 3800 watt element in the main pot controlled y a mypin ta-4, and a 1500 watt stove element under the thumper/secondary boiler also controlled by a pid just to act as a pre-heater of sorts, and n other purpose.
My question is this... If I use an RTD temp probe in my output arm just before the condenser do you all agree I would have a constant pot temp with very little or no "surging"? I understand the shortfall of a PID with the probe in the pot... But how about to keep constant vapor temp.. I am of course using thermometers in both pots to monitor so I feel this is a very safe/controllable system. Any input is Greatly appreciated as I have spent more than a year designing, and a few months building this one of still.
Perhaps I should have started with a Thanks for ALL the info you all share here as it was invaluable to my interest/ research in this new hobby. Thanks... Z

Ps. I WILL post picts. Just have to set it up for a photo shoot... Thank, and Happy new year! :wave:
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by evilpea »

There is engineered then there is over engineered, what kind of spirit exactly are you after? Seems to me you will be very limited in what you could produce. Your vapor temp is controlled by your product for the most part it is going to stay a constant with the mash/wash as the variable.
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by zombie911 »

"Your vapor temp is controlled by your product for the most part it is going to stay a constant with the mash/wash as the variable."

That is exactly the goal I am attempting to achieve. Constant vapor temp just before the condenser. I believe this method will produce a consistent/ repeatable product with little to no concern as to what is in the pot(s).

I intend to produce mainly clean corn/barley whiskey by leaving the scrubbers out of the system, and gin/vodka by installing scrubbers in a head off of the second pot. The whole concept of a" one still serves all " approach is what my end goal really is. I agree with the over engineering aspect, and I am a firm believer in" KISS"(keep it simple stupid) but... I have to strive fr something unique for entertainment or it's not really worth the effort/time/money spent (to me).
For Info. purposes the basics are: 10 gal stainless stock pot
8 gal " " "
stainless deep well sink traps as collectors on the pot lids
1 1/2" tubing off the traps leading to 1 1/2" elbows
The 1 1/2" elbows lead to 3" adapters that make up the hotboxes.
The main to secondary pot use a 1 foot 3" tube drilled at the lowest point, using a 1/4" copper pipe to return any liquid to the main pot for further distilling.
the secondary pot/thumper uses a taller 1 1/2" "tower" leading to a 2 foot 3" horizontal box also drilled to return liquid to it's secondary pot. The condenser is approx 3 feet long with a 1/2" inner vapor pipe. All the gaskets (lids/strainers) are EPTFE. Lead/Cad. free solder.
If a pict says a thousand words I really have to post a few...
I have run one water only run to prove the theory using the home stove top, and it ran aces all the way. took about an hour to start thumpin', and another 20 or so minutes for the secondary boil to occur. Vapor collected as distilled water... Life is good!
My ral concern is in th use of the PID temp robe (rtd) at the true end of the line (so to speak). I believe my design will allow ONLY the true 172-175* vapor out of the system, and recirculate everything else.
If Anyone see's a flaw in he idea I would LOVE to hear it before I hook it up.
Thanks for the good reading... Z


I hav
bellybuster
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by bellybuster »

You cannot control the temp of a boiling liquid, that temp is set by the liquid itself, all you can control is the rate of boil.
Put a thermometer in a pot of water and bring it to a boil...212 degrees...try and make it hotter...

Just because someone's gonna say it... Yes the boil temp depends on altitude/pressure

PIDs are great for controlling temp, prior to the boiling point. Makes them a poor choice for use in stills.

From the sounds of things, your "hot boxes" are slobber boxes. With a return line? The theory behind them was that early vapours would condense in the slobber box and could be drawn off. Returning them to the boil would effectively mix them thru your entire batch

I'm just going on what you've written, pics could show me to be out to lunch, if so, disregard.
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by zombie911 »

Thanks BB,

I understand your point on PID controllers, and boil rate vs. boil temp. That is why I would like to install the PID temp. probe at the end of the lyne arm just before the condenser.

My "theory" is... Setting the temp to read Vapor @175*ish the temp in the pot would really be irrelevant. That is the purpose of the recirculating hot/puke boxes. Setting the vapor temp at its "sweet" spot should (in theory) allow me to collect only the Heart that we are all after, while allowing the over/under temp products to return to the pots (as you so noted).

That is the reason I posted here in this forum??? As I said I have spent more than a year researching, and designing this system. Hundreds of hours reading, and finally installing Auto Cad 3d to get the box/pot volumes correct for the over/under temp "by-products" to drop out of the way.

Again the reason for posting here is I found your membership to be VERY analytical in viewing new/rehashed ideas, and no-one to a person holds any punches. Understood I am discussing theory here... so I accept any/all input with no thought of hurt feelings.

The concept appears sound to me but I may have overlooked something that the combined experience here may spot.

Here is a Near finished pict. I have not yet hooked up the main pots return line (from the smaller box) or finished cleaning the copper but I have test run it (water only) am am VERY happy with the function/heat transfer.

If I need to move this conversation to another thread I will be happy to oblige as I am looking forward to as much input as you all are willing to share.

Thanmks again... Z
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by zombie911 »

I should have noted... The proposed mounting point for the RTD temp probe is at the top of the big boxes output. 175*ish at that point should allow the PID to run as it will in the pot(s).
Thx.
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by bellybuster »

so basically its a pot still with a thumper and 2 enlarged portions inline, one before and one after the thumper.
as I see it, anything that the "hotboxes" condense flows back to the thumper. There it will just be vaporized again and continue on out the end rendering your hotboxes useless. Also, once your still is up to temp the "hotboxes" will have zero effect as they will be the same temp as the rest of the still. Similar to passive reflux in a standard pot still, it only exists prior to the still being at producing temp (a minuscule amount after maybe) and in small scale its benefit is negligible at best.

Your thinking on vapour temps is flawed as well. You cannot control that, the ABV of the wash does, as the wash is depleted of alcohols, the temp rises. Any theoretical low point alcohols that your hotboxes have removed are now being mixed back into your wash. That is if in fact they are capable of removing anything.

Anything that you can remove half way through the still head, you can also remove at the output end, we call it cuts. We maximize the depth of smearing in these cuts with good recipe, good fermenting practices and good still operation.

I must say, that's quite the animal you've built there. I'm just a regular Joe so anything I pass on is based on my understanding of distillation. I feel I have a pretty good handle on it but am always willing to learn new methods/ideas
You're the second fella in a couple days trying to fractionate without lab equipment via temp. As far as I know it doesn't work.
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by bellybuster »

where on earth did you find that design??
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by Prairiepiss »

Didn't we just talk another person through this earlier today belly?

Ok read this thread.
Why you need a controller and what kind. (Electric heat)
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 62&t=43024

And this is the thread where we just talked someone else through this.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=14048

Your cheap little PID is not going to do what you need it to do.

YOU CAN NOT CONTROL TEMPS. You need to control the heat input. The wattage input. The amperage input. BUT NOT THE TEMP.

Thumper doesn't need heat input. It gets it from the main boiler. And will defeat the whole purpose of the thumper.

And holy moly what an over engendered still. That thing is not going to work like you think it will. If it works at all.

Are those big tubes you call Scottish hot boxs condensers? Placed horizontal?

Have you built and ran any other stills. Or is this your first?

Oh yea welcome aboard.
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by bellybuster »

it looks cool
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by The KYChemist »

That still kinda reminds me of this...
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by zombie911 »

" There it will just be vaporized again and continue on out the end rendering your hotboxes useless. Also, once your still is up to temp the "hotboxes" will have zero effect as they will be the same temp as the rest of the still."

That is the idea. Allow the boxes to heat making the required input heat less as the system runs. The size is calculated to allow over/under temp products to separate by volume/ specific gravity more so than heat energy.

"Your thinking on vapour temps is flawed as well. You cannot control that, the ABV of the wash does, as the wash is depleted of alcohols, the temp rises. Any theoretical low point alcohols that your hotboxes have removed are now being mixed back into your wash".

That is the point in the design. Keeping the unwanted materials in the pot, and only claiming the wanted hearts'

"YOU CAN NOT CONTROL TEMPS. You need to control the heat input. The wattage input. The amperage input. BUT NOT THE TEMP".

If you have a 20 foot column it will take X amount of heat energy to bring 175* vapor temp to the top. The pid will only apply the amount of energy required to do that not having ANY control on the liquid temp. A 1 foot column would require much less heat energy, and the pid will "see" this as a lower temp/boil rate in the pot. (granted my "theory"). I am NOT trying to control the pot temp. That will be determined by what the pid needs to reach the temp of the vapor at the probe. As the SG changes so does the required amperage input. That is in fact what a PID is designed for. Hands free maintenance of a set goal ie 175* vapor Regardless of the pot temp/amperage/wattage.

"Thumper doesn't need heat input. It gets it from the main boiler. And will defeat the whole purpose of the thumper."

The pre-heater is only to save time. I believe pre-heating to 120-130 will save 20 or so minuits per run vs. waiting fr the thumper to warm naturally.

"Are those big tubes you call Scottish hot boxs condensers? Placed horizontal?"

Not condensers but actually expansion chambers that will (in theory) force/allow over/unders a place to escape, and return to the pots.

"Have you built and ran any other stills. Or is this your first?"

Yes no... (Several 55 gallon pot/thumper set ups) or so it has been alleged...

"Oh yea welcome aboard."

Thank you!

""where on earth did you find that design??"

That dark half sleep state between awake, and insanity... Hot boxes were used in the 1400's as a way to burn off the volatiles. Sort of a heated lyne arm

"it looks cool"

I think so too... Thx!
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by zombie911 »

"That still kinda reminds me of this..."

I may try to improve on that too if this falls apart.
Love it!
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by Prairiepiss »

Good luck.
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by toast860 »

good luck
if you cant build a paper airplane, then leave the rocket alone.
its like wiping before you poop, dont make sense.
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by zombie911 »

"Ok read this thread.
Why you need a controller and what kind. (Electric heat)
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=43024

And this is the thread where we just talked someone else through this.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14048 "

Forgot to say Thx. for those. I am familiar with the content of both... That's what got me to this point. Another way to skin the cat, with far less attention/time...
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by Prairiepiss »

I can't wait to hear your results. Make sure you keep us updated.
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by zombie911 »

I will update as this progresses... Ma be a few weeks before I actually start to run because I have a stainless table being made, and have to wire (220+110) to the err... uhh... shop!
I may run a few times on a stove top to test the boxes effect but it is designed as a system, and truly dependent on precise vapor temp control. (no concern as to pot temp)
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by Prairiepiss »

It's a good thing you are trying to control it with vapor temp.

Oh wait you can't control a pot still with vapor temp either.

A video of it operating would be a great for the update.
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by zombie911 »

"Oh wait you can't control a pot still with vapor temp either. "

This is where I may be blinded by ambition. The way I see things... the PID will give the liquid (wash) the required energy to produce (whatever set temp) vapor. Yes? No?
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by Prairiepiss »

A PID could do that. After it took time to stabilize. But at what temp are you going to set it at? And why that temp?
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by bellybuster »

zombie911 wrote:"Oh wait you can't control a pot still with vapor temp either. "

This is where I may be blinded by ambition. The way I see things... the PID will give the liquid (wash) the required energy to produce (whatever set temp) vapor. Yes? No?
for certain blinded by ambition but I sure give you kudos for effort.
zombie911 wrote:"
"Your thinking on vapour temps is flawed as well. You cannot control that, the ABV of the wash does, as the wash is depleted of alcohols, the temp rises. Any theoretical low point alcohols that your hotboxes have removed are now being mixed back into your wash".

That is the point in the design. Keeping the unwanted materials in the pot, and only claiming the wanted hearts'
But as I said, once the still is up to temp there is nothing stopping your magically removed volatiles from flowing right up and thru your condenser. Only thing is now you have delayed that exit to where your hearts are.... theoretically by your theory.
zombie911 wrote:"
Hot boxes were used in the 1400's as a way to burn off the volatiles. Sort of a heated lyne arm
in the 1400s (your year quote) these volatiles did not get fed back to the pot. The theory, and I use the term theory very loosely, was that the early alcohols which they knew nothing about, would condense and be removed, not returned to the pot. They were smart enough to find that once the run was in progress they got no more liquid from the "hot box" due to it being the same temp as the rest of the still. Their theories were mostly correct-ish.
Then one day a smarter fellow came along and said, why not just throw away the early alcohols as you collect? Would be the same. and so pot stilling evolved and got a little more efficient.
These "hotboxes" stayed though, but, evolved into what is now called a slobber box. They discovered the hotbox served no real purpose but it did a fine job of catching all sorts of puked up crap. (they hadn't evolved into good recipe formulation)
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by zombie911 »

"A PID could do that. After it took time to stabilize. But at what temp are you going to set it at? And why that temp?"

175* is the first temp I feel could produce a decent run rate. I realize this idea leaves a VERY narrow window for error due to the vapor temps of both high/low volatiles. too high (180*ish) gets into foesils, 160*ish gets into keytones/methanol. I figure I have an 8* window to try. Thus the Need for a PID (+ - 0.3*)

"But as I said, once the still is up to temp there is nothing stopping your magically removed volatiles from flowing right up and thru your condenser. Only thing is now you have delayed that exit to where your hearts are.... theoretically by your theory."

That is the reason I added the "hot boxes". Perhaps that term is incorrect... More appropriate would be expansion chambers. I believe the relatively heavier water vapor will have time to collect the more volatile fore shots trapping them in the still, and the heavier foesils will never be able to reach the condenser due to head temp being too low for them to be in vapor at that point, again returning to the pot.
I was loosely using the term hot box as before I posted the picts. it was easier than describing a constant recirculating expansion chamber. Keep in mind... Everything had to be invented ONCE.
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by zombie911 »

Sorry about posting twice in a row. The idea seems solid, and this is really an experiment to see if the theory works more than a committed build. I have a "friend" that works for a chemical analysis lab, and therefore I have the ability to have a mass spectrometer reading on the end product. I know it is above and beyond a hobby at that point but I have a goal here... Redesign the wheel so to speak.
Who wouldn't love to set the temp and KNOW your product would be PERFECT. Every time!
You guys all know what comes next... "Just set it, and forget it"
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by bellybuster »

once again, I give you kudos for effort.
You really need to do some serious reading on distillation theory and fundamentals. You cannot fraction alcohols by vapour temp, nor can you control vapour temp. many before you have tried and just as many have refused to grasp the idea that it doesn't work. They all failed.
If your theories are correct, we could have azeotropic out of a single run in a pot still just by using a PID at the inlet to the condenser. No expansion chambers required. Not gonna happen.

The wash is a solution, not separate components. It boils as one liquid. Even below the boiling temp of water the water in the wash is boiling as well even above the boiling temp of...lets say methanol... there is still methanol present. The separate alcohols do not come off at their respective boiling points. That's why fractionating stills were invented. They are able to fractionate not by vapour temp but by redistilling the solution over and over and over (simplified version)
All your "expansion chambers" are offering you is a more expensive means to build a pot still that will by design, smear your product all to hell.

Now I am completely open to you showing me I am completely wrong. Nothing would make me happier than to find out that hundreds of years of evolving has taken us in the wrong direction completely and we've been wasting our time doing these things called cuts. What a waste!
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by bellybuster »

one other thing, by dumping the early condensate back into the pot you are effectively lowering the boiling point of the wash... again.
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by Prairiepiss »

Set it and forget it. Is not a good want for this dangerous hobby. The still should be manned at all times.
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by Hound Dog »

So are you basically trying to say that you are going to heat your wash up to 175 degrees because you think the alcohol will boil off separately and you can condense it? :shock: Hmmmm. That sounds like a great idea. :idea: I wonder why no one has thought of doing that in the hundreds of years we have been distilling alcohol. You sir are a genius! :eugeek: Please post your results for us. We will make sure you get full credit in the scientific journals when it gets published. 8)
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by bearriver »

Science called, I have him on the other line.....

Should I tell him your in a meeting and take a message?
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Re: New here... with ideas...

Post by bellybuster »

awww you guys are mean, funny... but mean

do you really have science on the phone???
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