Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

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C2H5O5
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Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by C2H5O5 »

Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

After reading countless threads, on various forums and discussion boards. I decided to swap out my copper mesh for Spiral Prismatic Packing.

Those who have read my Welcome post "Thank you from C2H5O5" back in October http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 27&t=57874" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow already know I only do a run every fall and this will be my third season. But before I go into that I want to give you a little background on myself. I have always dabbled in stuff and love researching, tinkering blogging and chatting about these projects. If I get something in my head it will haunt me till I try to implement it. I need to start researching, making drawings, gathering supplies, I have stayed up countless hours at night with something as simple as working on a recipe.

I was on here a few years ago under a different name and asked the mods to cancel my posts because I got cold feet and lots of arguments with the wife, anyhow I progressed with my plans and the wife is OK with it. I got lots of flack from some posters about it, but my Marriage is more important to me than a bit of shine, after all, who's gonna change me when I'm old and wearing diapers!


When I first got my house I converted the garage into a wood shop, (the wife wanted to keep her cart in it :thumbdown: ),and dabbled with cabinetry and basic wood working stuff, Routers, Lathes, Biscuit Joiners, Table Saws, Dadoing, Dovetailing, etc...

Then I got heavily into Halloween when my first child was born, I have built animatronic props, air driven props, Fog Chillers, electronic timers, and quite a few other things, messing with pipework, solenoids, pneumatic s, electronics, fiber-glassing, etc... I would start as early as late august to get ready for Halloween. Eventually it consumed me so much and Mother Nature was not complying with my plans and the kids were getting older so I stopped.

This freed up an incredible amount of time. Then I got into Smoking and built my own Pit from a compressor and piped in propane burners from scratch, it can run on wood/charcoal/lump or propane. Here I dabbled with metal cutting (lots of metal) airflow/drafting, thermal mass, propane, welding and all types of cooking.

Then Firepits and schwenkers, Ornamental Koi pond, Garden pond, NFT Aquaponics, Kratky Beds, Deep water culture. Then more recently I got into permaculture and converted all may gardening into Hugelkultur.
All the while and I still have stuff in the house that needs to be done.

There have been many, Arguments, Anger, Burns, Cuts, Gashes and ER Visits on this journey but never any regrets.


All of this required a lot of research, asking for help, asking questions, failures, successes. But in the end I am always happy and enjoyed the journey. My friend and family think I am compulsive and just jump into things, little do they know the amount of time and research I put into these hobbies.

My only regret with this new found hobby is that I can not openly discuss or Blog about it. But I guess its a moot point because of posting videos and such, whatever.

What does that all have to do with this post? Well for one its to state the obvious, I like to tinker and also to try new things.
Also it points out that, it is with the help of others that I have been able to achieve what I have so far and that one person can really make an impression and give folks that little push sometimes needed to move forward, which leads me to this post.


After researching to death SPP, I decided to give it a shot, I don't know if I was compelled with the efficiency of this packing or if it was just another reason to tinker.
I think I also got inspired by DAD300 and his posts, he seemed to make it all seem worthwhile and took a lot of the unknowns out of the equation.

Here's the post that DAD300 helped me out on http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewt ... =1&t=62129
I wont go into the specifics of the packing, this is something that is specific to each person and their still.

I ordered my Stainless wire yesterday.
Blue Demon 308LSI X .023 X 10# Spool stainless steel welding wire https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GJ ... UTF8&psc=1
After ordering I looked around work for some spare press parts to make a Spiral Prismatic Packing Cutter Head. It didnt have to be fully automated but it had to be a manual feed auto.



Here's a short video on what I got so far. (Will it work? I don't know but you guys will be along for the ride.)

https://youtu.be/SFwWR29SdJI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Attachments
Cutting Head
Cutting Head
20160616018 15.jpg
20160616012 15.jpg
20160616003 15.jpg
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DAD300
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by DAD300 »

IF you can automate the cutting...you have it down. Making it is easy...cutting it sucks!
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C2H5O5
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by C2H5O5 »

DAD300 wrote:IF you can automate the cutting...you have it down. Making it is easy...cutting it sucks!
Hopefully this will work, I have a backup plan I am working on if this shear gets dull. Hardened steel gears are my backup, hopefully it wont be needed.
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by Pesty »

I saw a video where a guy used a big pair of sheers rigged up to a drill as another drill wound it..

Here ya go

http://youtu.be/WyEjic5SgiU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Oh and I'm a tinkerer as well.. Stop over thinking and try to KISS

saved my sanity
C2H5O5
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by C2H5O5 »

Pesty wrote:I saw a video where a guy used a big pair of sheers rigged up to a drill as another drill wound it..

Here ya go

http://youtu.be/WyEjic5SgiU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Oh and I'm a tinkerer as well.. Stop over thinking and try to KISS

saved my sanity
Thanks that does help.
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C2H5O5
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by C2H5O5 »

OK, My stainless steel wire is scheduled for delivery this week so I got to get moving.

Worked on the Mandrel last night and a speed control, I'm using a drill with a foot pedal from a sewing machine. Polished and tapered the bit to reduce binding and help slide off easily.
20160720181 (Custom).JPG
Ran some copper .024 and kept tweaking the mandrel until I was happy with the diameter.
20160720210 (Custom).JPG
20160720200 (Custom).JPG
The foot pedal gives great control I just need to work on a better feed system, holding a 10lb spool of wire isn't going to cut it.
Attachments
20160720250 (Custom).JPG
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by rad14701 »

Just remember that SS wire has significant spring-back which is one trait that copper wire doesn't have... Due to this trait, your SS SPP may form a different shape and finish up a bit looser than your experiments with copper... Tensioning and speed adjustments will be somewhat different... Keep us posted...
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by Bushman »

rad14701 wrote:Just remember that SS wire has significant spring-back which is one trait that copper wire doesn't have... Due to this trait, your SS SPP may form a different shape and finish up a bit looser than your experiments with copper... Tensioning and speed adjustments will be somewhat different... Keep us posted...
I didn't realize those characteristics about copper and SS, will be following this as well. To C2H505 you might contact Odin I know his company makes SPP packing and if he sees this thread he might be able to offer advice. I also believe DAD300 has made SPP's.
C2H5O5
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by C2H5O5 »

rad14701 wrote:Just remember that SS wire has significant spring-back which is one trait that copper wire doesn't have... Due to this trait, your SS SPP may form a different shape and finish up a bit looser than your experiments with copper... Tensioning and speed adjustments will be somewhat different... Keep us posted...
Yes I figured that would be the case and probably even a bit more difficult to work with, That's why I didn't finish making the cutting head yet, and I may have to take a bit more off the mandrel or even make a new one.
Thanks
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C2H5O5
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by C2H5O5 »

Bushman wrote:
rad14701 wrote:Just remember that SS wire has significant spring-back which is one trait that copper wire doesn't have... Due to this trait, your SS SPP may form a different shape and finish up a bit looser than your experiments with copper... Tensioning and speed adjustments will be somewhat different... Keep us posted...
I didn't realize those characteristics about copper and SS, will be following this as well. To C2H505 you might contact Odin I know his company makes SPP packing and if he sees this thread he might be able to offer advice. I also believe DAD300 has made SPP's.
Thanks, Yes DAD300 made and uses SPP and I have received a lot of help from DAD300 on this, without his assistance I wouldn't even be trying this :clap:

My goal is to get the wire coiled before next weekend, because if my cutter head doesn't work, I'll have a week in OC MD with some shears... sipping on my Sweet Tea shine :D
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by C2H5O5 »

You know, I am really sick and tired of scams and BS, I orderd this wire three weeks ago and was scheduled for delivery today, here Is what I get in my e-mail TODAY...

Hello,

Due to a lack of availability, we will not be able to obtain the following item(s) from your order:

"Blue Demon 308LSI X .023 X 10# Spool stainless steel welding wire"

We've canceled the item(s) and apologize for the inconvenience. If you see a charge for the canceled item, we will refund you within 1-2 business days.

If you are still interested in purchasing this item, it may be available from other sellers. Please visit the detail page for this item below:


Then I go back on Amazon to repurchase and there's no 10 pounders left, only 2 pounders at $86.00 a piece and 30lb at $176.00 each, such a scam.


I RE-ordered from USA Weld 10 lbs for $77.00 free ship.

I don't think it will be here in time for vacation next week, man this PEEVES me!! :evil:
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by C2H5O5 »

Actually, I ordered June 16th, 5 weeks ago.
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by C2H5O5 »

Saturday was a pleasant surprise, my Welding wire came in and being giddy with excitement I ran down to the basement and started to make my packing. Well it was a total Fail, I spent most of Saturday and a bit of Sunday with no product at all. I made three more mandrels to no avail. I studied the process, increased tensions, decreased tensions, changed feed angles, changed mandrel tapers, different speeds, nothing worked.
I knew the SS wire would be springier but I could not get this stuff to work.
The wire would bind too much and not slide off the end and start doubling up then forming a big ball, when I loosened it, the wire would just slip and not grab to spin and form the coil.
I was so disappointed especially since I wasted all that time when I could be working on my All bran ferments. I gave up and tossed the 10 pounds of wire in the work shop for later projects. If I want the SPP I will have to buy it.
For now I'll have to be happy with the copper mesh. After all I am in this to enjoy it, not beat my head against the wall.
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by Kegg_jam »

That's a bummer. Was looking forward to seeing this work.

BigSwede has a killer setup, but that is beyond my skill set and budget at the moment.
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by Hound Dog »

Kegg_jam wrote: BigSwede has a killer setup, but that is beyond my skill set and budget at the moment.
Is he still kicking? Haven't heard from him in ages. Figured a tinkerer like him built wat he wanted and is off to build something new that caught his attention. :ebiggrin:
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C2H5O5
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by C2H5O5 »

Although I am admitting defeat short term I will be picking back up on this after I get my runs finished. Here's what I have found out so far.
Mig welding wire is a bear to work with, I assumed this from the beginning but figured I would eventually get it to work, I was wrong.

I have two options I am working on

1) .041 Stainless Lock wire
or use a soft temper wire
2) McMaster Carr “bend and stay” 302/304 stainless steel wire 0.025” #8860K62

Since I just spent $80.00 on welding wire that I can't use I need to do this in smaller stages, I'll probably start off with a pound of #2 to see if I can get it to work.
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by DAD300 »

The design of your mandrel worked for copper...but needs to be a little dif for SS.
Mandrel.jpg
Copper slides off pretty easily compared to SS. So, I could see copper coming off the long slope of your pictured mandrel and SS sticking to it.

SS needs to make one or two harsh bends around the mandrel and then get off the square of the mandrel. My mandrels are short and have an initial sharp edge, then rounded to reduce sticking. SS also helps you accomplish this. When you get the tension right on the feed end it wants to spring off the mandrel.

I use flat blade screw driver bits. Use a dremel tool to cut the slot in the front. Then profile the slope from back to tip with a file while they are spinning.

My tension device came down to two necessary items.
Wire path diagram.jpg
A- the wire had to come from behind the mandrel

B- it had to make a revolution around something to take the tension (from being delivered on a roll) out of it.

Where the green spring is, most of the time I just held a gloved hand there. If things went wrong I could break the wire with my hand. Amazingly the .025-.045 wire seems to break between 25 - 30 pounds. When the tension was right this could run off an indefinite length of spiral.

C2H5O5 you're almost there...
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by C2H5O5 »

Just broke down my setup but I will try it again after my run this year.
Going to try a one pound roll of the "Soft Temper Wire".
It would be nice to get this to work as easily as possible so others can try it.
I'm hoping the tempered cuts easier too.

I think the Russians are using a "Lock Wire" (Safety Wire).

I will update
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by DAD300 »

Most of the tiny Russian SPP is made from fishing wire, because they get it for free...lock wire is very soft.
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by papapro »

rad14701 wrote:Just remember that SS wire has significant spring-back which is one trait that copper wire doesn't have... Due to this trait, your SS SPP may form a different shape and finish up a bit looser than your experiments with copper... Tensioning and speed adjustments will be somewhat different... Keep us posted...
To make copper hard and springy you have to hardened to do so heat up the wire to 400 deg F and slowly let it cool down. this could be done in the oven and left over night.
copper reacts opposite to steel, to make it hard heat up and cool down quickly, if you do this with copper it become soft,
Copper wire is used for electric purpose so is soft.
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by NakiMoonShine »

Hello. I am new at making SPP and can't seem to get the mandrel right. My
attempts are just a clump of wire. The wire doesn't want to spring off the
mandrel. What am I doing wrong? Hope you can help me. Thanks.
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by cob »

NakiMoonShine wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:03 pm Hello. I am new at making SPP and can't seem to get the mandrel right. My
attempts are just a clump of wire. The wire doesn't want to spring off the
mandrel. What am I doing wrong? Hope you can help me. Thanks.
read this yet? https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... e#p7219805
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Re: Spiral Prismatic Packing Journey

Post by acfixer69 »

That was a great thread to bad he flew in and flew out. Left some great droppings. Wish I scoffed some of his makings.
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