New Packing

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Re: New Packing

Post by HDNB »

C2H5O5 wrote: "the still would run better if you shove a sparkplug up your ass"....guess what :D
I think pictures would violate #4, but if you could graph out your results during this experiment it would really help us better understand. :ebiggrin:

i've learned a lot on this thread. it's great when some heavyweights can come in and give us some good data and help clear the air on some assumptions we would make in absence of their resources. that's what makes the forum great. without them it would be less.

my first thoughts were to insulate the column to the top of the packing, i was happy to see my conjecture affirmed by the manufacturer. I subbed now so i can see some results, i hope you will share them!
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Re: New Packing

Post by rad14701 »

manu de hanoi wrote:what size of SPP do you have ? and on which column diameter have you tried it ?
I will have to dig it out later and measure it rather than spit-balling... I'm in no way implying that the SPP doesn't work in my 1.25" column, it just doesn't work as well as 5/8" marbles... In fact the SPP works about the same as the coarse SS scrubbers I have been running for years as far as heat input, take off rate, and purity... Marbles, on the other hand, allow me to push more heat, collect a bit faster, and maintains 95% all the way through the run until the %ABV drops and output slows and turns skanky at the end of the run...
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Re: New Packing

Post by skow69 »

Oooooo spark plug! Me too. Me too.

I wanna be a 4 banger.

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Re: New Packing

Post by bbok »

#5) Definitely. Fascinating read.
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Re: New Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

HDNB wrote:
C2H5O5 wrote: "the still would run better if you shove a sparkplug up your ass"....guess what :D
I think pictures would violate #4,
I don't care if is against the rules I want to see this! :eh: :esurprised: :lol:
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Re: New Packing

Post by papapro »

I run 2" with the spp 4.5 x 4.5 mm similar as der woo I got from Poland my still
is powered by induction plate is a small 1300 w. When in heat up mode I run full tilt then reduce to 1000 W at full reflux the temps in the top column rises well above temps.
Then I equilibrate 1/2 to 1 hr then I noticed that te temp drops well below 78 deg C
usualy is about 77.2 or less. then I draw fores and heads very slow. Also I noticed that there was no difference betwen 800 W and 1000. At the 2-3 drops per sec I get azeo no problem and take off is almost the same.
I have ordered the temp probe so I can record on PC what is happening when I get it I will
post the graph.
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Re: New Packing

Post by C2H5O5 »

Started off with the spark plug ...that didn't work, sorry no pics, moved onto plan “B”
I am a bit leery of putting up a video, so I took a couple screen grabs of the Flooding/Boiling. If anyone has any ideas for uploading Vids Incognito, let me know.


  • Distilled in shed, no wind, door partially open, attic exhaust fan on and a fan in open window exhausting out.
  • Approx. 28% low wines
  • approximately 11 gallon charge
  • 5 gallons coolant per 19 minutes, a little more than 15 gallons an hour. Water was recycled into the garden and used to clean squirrel mess on my patio of walnut casings, they stain like hell
    water coolant in 70F approx.
  • Water coolant Outlet 118-137 during run.
  • Insulated column
  • Removed and Replaced SPP, tapped lightly once.
  • Removed copper mesh from top of SPP
20160917003 (Custom).jpg
No I'm not gonna leave it like that!
20160917005 (Custom).jpg

Suggestions I did not do,
  • Place a thermo in the center of the packed column.

8:20 - low heat
9:45 - refluxing
10:00 – perking/boiling, turned down flame, refluxed 15 minutes.
turned heat up, increased output trying to maintain a 1-1 reflux to takeoff.


1. 10:20 - 10:30 half/Pint 172F (fores) reflux 1-1 broken stream.

Fores are tossed in my alcohol cleaning jar for still cleaning and hopefully a sacrificial run for my not-yet-built pot still
Starting collecting product 10:30 water outlet 118F Distillate 84F

2. 10:30 - 10:38 Pint 172F Distillate at 84F w/ correction 96.1.......Reflux 2-1
20160917010 (Custom).jpg
3. 10:38 - 10:45 Pint 172F-------------------------------------------------Reflux 2-1
4. 10:45 - 10:52 Pint 172F-------------------------------------------------Reflux 2-1
5. 10:52 - 10:59 Pint 172F-------------------------------------------------Reflux 2-1
6. 10:59 - 11:06 Pint 172F-------------------------------------------------Reflux 2-1
7. 11:06 - 11:14 Pint 172F-------------------------------------------------Reflux 2-1
8. 11:14 - 11:22 Pint 172F-------------------------------------------------Reflux 2-1
9. 11:22 - 11:30 Pint 178F
10. 11:30 – 11:40 Pint 178F

so the first gallon was about one hour and I thought this was great.
When I got to the end of #9 @178F, I put the still in full reflux for about 3 minutes before it started flooding, once it started flooding, I opened output and was at a ratio of 1-1


11. 11:40 – 11:47 Pint, 178F, put back in full reflux and cut heat back
12. 11:47 – 12:08 Pint, 172F
13. 12:09 – 12:17 Pint 172F
14. 12:27 – 12:45 Pint. @12:35 temp up to 178F equalized column again, turned up heat
15. 12:45 – 12:52 Pint, Flooded
16. 12:52 – 1:04 Pint, had to increase reflux to a 3-1 ratio to keep column stable, product takeoff slowed significantly, bumped up the heat, temp back up to 178F, bumped up heat again and decreased out put and increased reflux 4-1
17. 1:04 – 1:28 Pint 172F
18. 1:28 – 1:54 Pint 172F
19. 1:54 – 2:21
20. 2:21 – 2:38
21. 2:38 – 3:00 Half Pint, 178F – 180F. Started seeing what looked like oil in water mixture figured it was late tails and STOPPED AT 3:00 PM , dumped this in my waste alcohol jar.


Perk/Flooding screen grabs
Screenshot 2016-09-19 10.23.01 (Custom).png
Screenshot 2016-09-19 10.22.57 (Custom).png

Notes.
  • Collected 20 pints. The first 8 pints was an absolute pleasure, a pint every 7-9 minutes...was like autopilot, after that I was on my toes the whole time.
  • I could tell when the temp was climbing as soon as I walked into the shed, it was humid and hotter than when running at 172...weird, was like walking into a sauna
  • Temp would rise, sight glass would start to get foggy then get wet before Perking, once perking, I would dial heat back and open output, then once column stopped perking, I would reflux to equalize column, temp would drop to 172, sight window would dry up and be clear.
  • Sight glass stayed dry and crystal clear as long as the temp was at 172F.
  • Ran the Kab 6 pretty low, I used much less propane than I normally do and the shed didn't get as hot as it used to
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Re: New Packing

Post by DAD300 »

I know it was from low wines, but a gallon an hour, from a 2" column is pretty damn good.

Less power and azeo all the way...congratulations. HUH! I heard that suggestion somewhere.

Once you get the hang of it, it will be one power setting most of the run.
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Re: New Packing

Post by C2H5O5 »

Yeah I was impressed, the first gallon was a lot quicker than I ever ran before. Product slowed pretty much after the first gallon. I just need to learn how to run the SPP the correct way. I need to try and leave the heat alone.
I'm gonna try and do s run this weekend to see if I can do better.
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Re: New Packing

Post by papapro »

c2h505 when you take off some heat to equilize the column try to run at that speed at 4 drips per sec or very slow streem i run 2" at aproximatly 800 w with heat up 1300 I do not increase the heat after equilize.
last weekend I tryed to run at 1150 and % was much lower about 80.
I think you run SPP's at max rate the manufacture says it is 115 w/cm2 Iget 96% at slower take of.
try to run slower.
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Re: New Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

If he's getting a gallon an hour out of a two inch column, he's not counting drips per second. That's pretty damn good. Shoot for a little slower than that and you won't have to fiddle with it. You're actually doing quite good. :thumbup:

By the way, I have the same trap adapter site glass at the top of my packing. I keep a steady liquid pool in the center of my glass the whole time. I find that to be my balance point.
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Re: New Packing

Post by C2H5O5 »

Yes I will be running slower next run, hell what used to take me 12 hours, took me less than half that this time around.
In the beginning a Broken stream not drips, hopefully the vid shows it better than words can explain.
Towards the later 2/3rds it was a quick drip for product and a broken stream for reflux.

HD, Do you run at a flooded state?



The camera wouldn't focus properly due to the heat so there not much video.
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Re: New Packing

Post by skow69 »

You mean like this?

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Re: New Packing

Post by C2H5O5 »

skow69 wrote:You mean like this?
Yeah exactly, I was able to keep it at that state and even get it to boil a little lower in the column. My temp was rock steady at 172F when it was boiling.
I have read all about the Fluidized bed and such but to be honest I was quite lost. Are you running like this? Give me some dirt!
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Re: New Packing

Post by skow69 »

That's how I run. I start about 1800 watts and end 2200 to 2400 watts.

Did you see this fustercluck? http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... +fluidized
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Re: New Packing

Post by skow69 »

NOTE: If you haven't read the thread, please skip this post. It won't make any sense.

BTW, since that thread I have come to believe that the term "fluidized bed" is not synonymous with "aquatic environment" (as I had thought). In fact, I now believe that "fluidized bed" actually refers to the bedding (the packing) becoming fluid because of the semi-flooded column (the "aquatic environment") and the volume of vapor rising through it.

I got that idea from a peer reviewed research article. It was quite the epiphany.
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Re: New Packing

Post by C2H5O5 »

Yes I read that several times and wont go into specifics and beat a dead horse but from what I could gather Odin was Adamant about Entrainment and that runing like this would smear product significantly, after his point the discussion stops. I still have no clue but it was a good read anyway.
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Re: New Packing

Post by skow69 »

Well, I stopped posting because I was happy with what I had and didn't see anywhere else to take it. And Odin didn't come back to explain his bullet in a fish tank fable so that stalled. As for entrainment, I can see that there is only vapor, no liquid getting to my product takeoff, so I'm not concerned.
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Re: New Packing

Post by C2H5O5 »

skow69 wrote:Well, I stopped posting because I was happy with what I had and didn't see anywhere else to take it. And Odin didn't come back to explain his bullet in a fish tank fable so that stalled. As for entrainment, I can see that there is only vapor, no liquid getting to my product takeoff, so I'm not concerned.
I thought the same thing, looking at my video I find it hard to believe that distillate will flow up and through the reflex coming down. Have you noticed any smearing?

I'm wondering If I should experiment a little with this?
Every time I look at my Video I feel like I'm at the laundromat :D
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Re: New Packing

Post by Odin »

skow69 wrote:Well, I stopped posting because I was happy with what I had and didn't see anywhere else to take it. And Odin didn't come back to explain his bullet in a fish tank fable so that stalled. As for entrainment, I can see that there is only vapor, no liquid getting to my product takeoff, so I'm not concerned.
I am sorry if I let you down, Skow. I am perfectly happy to explain my "bullit in a fish tank" paradigm. Please let me know if that's what you need. Here or in another thread.

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Re: New Packing

Post by C2H5O5 »

Odin, I would like to see it posted here if thats OK with you and Skow, but,
"explain it like you would to a child",
(Quote from Galaxy Quest) I'm not as seasoned as you guys :D
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Re: New Packing

Post by skow69 »

C2H5O5 wrote: looking at my video I find it hard to believe that distillate will flow up and through the reflex coming down.
I don't understand that point. Vapor is lighter than liquid. Therefor it wants to rise. In this case it is being propelled upward by new vapor being produced in the boiler. What else could it do?

Of course you can get enough reflux held up in the column to cause problems. That is called a flood. The solution is to reduce power. If you're not flooded, I take that as evidence that vapor and reflux are flowing.


Have you noticed any smearing?
Nope. My fractions are distinct with abrupt changes.
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Re: New Packing

Post by C2H5O5 »

Skow, if you look at my video, look at the angle and placement of the reflux return, I don't see how anything could travel up that reflux return, when the distillate is bubbling on top of the packing.
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Re: New Packing

Post by DAD300 »

He's talking about after the reflux re-enters the column...it will penetrate until it becomes as warm as the upward flow.
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Re: New Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

C2H5O5 wrote: HD, Do you run at a flooded state?



.
Yep. This is exactly where I keep the reflux level in my boka.
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Re: New Packing

Post by skow69 »

C2, part of our problem here is the terminology.
C2 wrote: I find it hard to believe that distillate will flow up and through the reflex coming down.
Actually, what flows up through the column is vapor. The liquid above your packing is reflux. It becomes distillate when it leaves the still. Distillate is the product of distillation.

I thought you meant you couldn't believe vapor would rise through reflux. I should have asked for clarification.
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Re: New Packing

Post by C2H5O5 »

skow69 wrote:C2, part of our problem here is the terminology.
C2 wrote: I find it hard to believe that distillate will flow up and through the reflex coming down.
Actually, what flows up through the column is vapor. The liquid above your packing is reflux. It becomes distillate when it leaves the still. Distillate is the product of distillation.

I thought you meant you couldn't believe vapor would rise through reflux. I should have asked for clarification.
Got it, thanks.
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Re: New Packing

Post by C2H5O5 »

Quick update.
The run I posted above had to be rerun, I was trying to make cuts and it was all over the place, I spot checked ABV and it was all over the place as well, I don't have my notes today but will gather them up and post my last two runs.
on my most recent run, I had to run slow and was pulling Azeo most of the run, I was averaging 25-30 minutes a pint but heat was low and not touched the entire run, reflux continued and temp was steady at 172. The still pretty much shut down automatically when I was in to what I assumed was my early tails.

My rerun of the run posted above I had flooding one time because I messed with the heat.
Looks like my comfort zone is 20-30 minutes a pint, I'm sure I can get better with fiddling but I'm happy with these results.
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Re: New Packing

Post by C2H5O5 »

Ok I got some numbers, I'll be making cuts this weekend and checking the ABV and post back.

Run#1

I pulled jars #2 and #3 from the beginning and #19 and #20 from the end of the run before making cuts for my next feints run, however I could not make proper cuts, I was all over the place so I spot checked the ABV as seen below and decided to just rerun the whole thing.

1.10:20 - 10:30 half/Pint 172F (10 Minutes) (fores) reflux 1-1 broken stream.

Fores are tossed in my alcohol cleaning jar for still cleaning and hopefully a sacrificial run for my not-yet-built pot still
Starting collecting product 10:30 water outlet 118F Distillate 84F
Distillate at w/ temp correction

2. 10:30 - 10:38 Pint 172F- (8 Minutes) Reflux 2-1 96% ABV
3. 10:38 - 10:45 Pint 172F- (9 Minutes) Reflux 2-1 96% ABV
4. 10:45 - 10:52 Pint 172F- (7 Minutes) Reflux 2-1
5. 10:52 - 10:59 Pint 172F- (7 Minutes) Reflux 2-1
6. 10:59 - 11:06 Pint 172F- (7 Minutes) Reflux 2-1 86.5% ABV
7. 11:06 - 11:14 Pint 172F- (8 Minutes) Reflux 2-1 96% ABV
8. 11:14 - 11:22 Pint 172F- (8 Minutes) Reflux 2-1 83.4% ABV
9. 11:22 - 11:30 Pint 178F- (8 Minutes) 95.9% ABV

So the first gallon was about one hour and I thought this was great.
When I got to the end of #9 @178F, I put the still in full reflux for about 3 minutes before it started flooding, once it started flooding, I opened output and was at a ratio of 1-1

10. 11:30 – 11:40 Pint 178F- (10 Minutes) 88.6% ABV
11. 11:40 – 11:47 Pint, 178F- (7 Minutes) put back in full reflux and cut heat back 93.8% ABV
12. 11:47 – 12:08 Pint, 172F- 11 Minutes) 93.8% ABV
13. 12:09 – 12:17 Pint 172F- (8 Minutes)
14. 12:27 – 12:45 Pint. - (18 Minutes)@12:35 temp up to 178F equalized column again, turned up heat 73.3% ABV
15. 12:45 – 12:52 Pint, Flooded- (7 Minutes)
16. 12:52 – 1:04 Pint, - (12 Minutes)had to increase reflux to a 3-1 ratio to keep column stable, product takeoff slowed significantly, bumped up the heat, temp back up to 178F, bumped up heat again and decreased out put and increased reflux 4-1 78.3% ABV
17. 1:04 – 1:28 Pint 172F- (24 Minutes)
18. 1:28 – 1:54 Pint 172F - (26 Minutes) 96% ABV
19. 1:54 – 2:21 - (27 Minutes)
20. 2:21 – 2:38- (18 Minutes)
21. 2:38 – 3:00 - (22 Minutes)Half Pint, 178F – 180+F. Started seeing what looked like oil in water mixture figured it was somewhere in the tails and stopped at 3:00 PM , dumped #21 in my waste alcohol jar.





Run#3 (rerun of run#1)

3rd reflux run diluted reflux run #1 to 25% low wines @ approx.9 gallons

1. 11:35 – 11:51 10oz172F- (16 Minutes) Distillate 3 – 4 drips a second
2. 11:51 – 12:18 Pint 172F- (16 Minutes)
3. 12:18 – 12:45 Pint 172F- (27 Minutes)
4. 12:45 – 1:15 Pint 172F- (30 Minutes)
5. 1:15 – 1:40 Pint 172F- (25 Minutes)
6. 1:40 – 2:09 Pint 172F- (29 Minutes)
7. 2:09 – 2:36 Pint 172F- (27 Minutes)
8. 2:36 – 3:03 Pint 172F- (27 Minutes)
9. 3:03 – 3:28 Pint 172F- (25 Minutes)
10. 3:28 – 4:01 Pint 172F- (33 Minutes)
11. 4:01 – 4:31 Pint 172F- (30 Minutes)
12. 4:31 – 4:58 Pint 172F- (27 Minutes)
13. 4:58 – 5:22 Pint 172F- (24 Minutes) 180F Flooded, because I played with the heat, cut product take-off, put in full reflux, pulled container equalized column
14. 5:22 – 5:46 Pint 172F- (24 Minutes)
Stopped at 5:46



Run#2 "I posted this out of order because run #3 was a rerun of Run #1"

low wines 28% @# approx. 8 - 9 gallons
set temp very low after initial heat up ran in full reflux 30 minutes, took off fores
After fores, did not touch the reflux, water or heat input the entire run.

1. 11:20 – 11:50 10oz172F (30 Minutes) fores 3-5 drips a second
2. 11:50 – 12:22 Pint 172F- (32 Minutes) increased product takeoff, drips per second like a steady dribble, not quite a broken stream
3. 12:22 – 12:51 Pint 172F- (29 Minutes)
4. 12:51 – 1:19 Pint 172F- (28 Minutes)
5. 1:19 – 1:52 Pint 172F- (33 Minutes)
6. 1:52 – 2:21 Pint 172F- (29 Minutes)
7. 2:21 – 2:52 Pint 172F- (31 Minutes)
8. 2:52 – 3:22 Pint 172F- (30 Minutes)
9. 3:22 – 3:55 Pint 172F- (33 Minutes)
10. 3:55 – 4:30 Pint 172F- (35 Minutes)
11. 4:30 – 5:04 Pint 172F- (34 Minutes) barely any reflux
12. 5:04 – 5:42 Pint 172F- (38 Minutes) 0 reflux
13. 5:42 – 6:33 Pint 172F- (49 Minutes) 0 reflux
14. 6:33 – 6:53 8 oz 172F- (20 Minutes) still almost stopped completely at this point
Stopped at 6:53

Run #2 and Run # 3 were an absolute pleasure, very long, but leaving the still alone, once dialed in after fores seems to be the best way to run my current setup.
Well my runs are not any quicker with the new SPP but I will say this, I am definitely using much, much, less heat.
If I get it dialed in right it's almost on auto pilot and Azeotrope is achieved.
The still will stop at the tails unless I play with it a bit.

I'll update this with the ABV numbers by next week.
"Carrots may be good for your eyes, but Booze will double your vision"

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manu de hanoi
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Re: New Packing

Post by manu de hanoi »

Hi
about run #1 : Above safe power setting used in run #3, flooding is dependent on reflux. Because at the beginning of the run #1, you were refluxing much less than at the end, it did not flood initially but then at the end it did.
It means that *if* you want to speed it up at the cost of tweaking, you can run with more heating power than in run #3 initially only and at the condition that each time you increase the reflux, you decrease the power accordingly (you'll have to experiment to get a feel for it ) until you reach the safe power you used in #3.
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