New Packing

[C2H5O5]

OK, I ordered 2 liters of SPP from Manu and I am in the process of getting the still ready for the new packing.

Removed and Cleaned the copper mesh with salt and vinegar, rinsed and boiled in water. Removing the mesh was a bear, I had to use a 4' piece of copper tubing, flatten and bend the end and twist the bend so when I pushed the tubing into the bottom of the column, I would twist until it caught the mesh, then pulled it out... there was no way of pushing it out from the top, it was just too restrictive.


I was trying to figure out a way to hold the SPP in place and as usual, I started over complicating things.
I ended up using a small piece of copper tubing then stripping some 10awg wire and slid two pieces inside the tubing and hammered flat, (pic 1) I sized the piece to fit in between the stainless ferrule and copper adapter then pushed a piece of copper mesh from the top snugly against the retainer to hold in place. (pic 4)
Copper retainer was soaked in vinegar then rinsed.

[pfshine]

Looks like it will do the trick. For scrubby removal put a corkscrew on a stick. Just put it in twist and pull.

[Bushman]

Where there is a will there is a way. On a side note I haven't seen or heard from Manu on the forum is years.

[C2H5O5]

Received the packing, Wow is it tiny, I knew it was small but its tiny. I actually had a few get stuck on the strainer.
Shipping was incredibly fast, packaging was near indestructible, payment was painless through paypal. Manu responded promptly to all my e-mails.
This cost me a bit more than double what it would have cost me to make it...it was well worth it.

Cleaned with boiling water then some heads, the oil came off the packing with the alcohol you can see what little oil was on the packing in the paper towel picture, very clean product from the get go.
I had to pull out my 100MM Macro lens to try and get a good shot of the shape.

I just need to be careful, spilling these would be like spilling sand.

here's a few photos.

[C2H5O5]

Here are a few photos with the Macro.
I will report back on how it performs.

[still_stirrin]

Tight.

Be careful when you run it so you don't flood it. It (the SPP) should get you to azeo easily.

Do you have a means to clean it? You probably will need to periodically clean it as the oils and crud from your washes will tend to collect and build on the SPP.
ss

[C2H5O5]

Tight.

Be careful when you run it so you don't flood it. It (the SPP) should get you to azeo easily.

Do you have a means to clean it? You probably will need to periodically clean it as the oils and crud from your washes will tend to collect and build on the SPP.
ss

I was worried about flooding and have been reading a lot about it, I'm not 100 percent sure how to tell if its flooding, I do have a sight glass at my reflex return but there will be copper packing there down to about 4".

Does it build up more or less than the copper packing? Hopefully it wont need cleaning often, what are other folks doing?

[rad14701]

Wow, C2H5O5, that is the smallest SPP I have ever seen...!!! Tiny isn't the word for it... I'd call it microscopic...!!! Let us know how it works out for you...

[C2H5O5]

OK, I ran a 5-5-1/2 gallon sacrificial run of Rads All bran through the new packing.
2 liters@ about 36"
Bottom 3" copper mesh, top 3" copper mesh, about 2" below reflux return.
Fired up as usual using my propane kab 6 burner, full reflux, water coolant on, shortly after heat up distillate was bubbling and spitting like crazy on top of the packing. Dialed the heat back, temp rose higher than usual to 186°, It usually holds for a while at 172°.
Tried taking off product, broken stream, and reflux was steady stream. Maybe 4-1
Sightglass fogged up immediately, it usually doesn't fog up until I am in the end of my run, I'm assuming it was water.
It was a hell of a balancing act between the heat, reflux and take off.
Had a little condensation at the top of my condenser, checked coolant and it was fairly hot but no stream, increased coolant, condensation stopped. This also never happens on reflux runs, but what was odd is it was water not alcohol.
Distillate was coming out cool.
Tossed 6 oz. then collected about -3/4-gallon and shut down.
ABV was 80 I'm a bit miffed, I figured I would get better ABV. My math says that 3/4 gallon is about right, I figured I wasnt heavy into tails because the collection was crystal clear.
could it be because it was a wash and not low wines?
I can get 95 when running low wines on my mesh packing.
I can reflux like crazy on my mesh, with no problem.
I'll be doing some low wines runs next week.

[still_stirrin]

...the new packing...(SPP) 2 liters@ about 36"...Bottom 3" copper mesh, top 3" copper mesh, about 2" below reflux return.

Can you blow through it? I fear that the SPP being that small is too tight.

..full reflux, water coolant on...distillate was bubbling and spitting...on top of the packing. Dialed the heat back, temp rose higher than usual to 186°, It usually holds for a while at 172°.

This is confusing...that the temp goes up after dialing the heat back...unless you reduced the coolant flow. Did your coolant to the RC get reduced?

..Sightglass fogged up immediately, it usually doesn't fog up until I am in the end of my run, I'm assuming it was water.

It wouldn't be water (steam) yet...you've got to get the alcohol, including fores and heads, before the water will make it to the top of your column. Plus, you said that the temperature you measured was 186*F. Water won't boil at that temperature unless you're in a partial vacuum, which I'm sure your packing isn't creating (if anything...it's the opposite).

It was a hell of a balancing act between the heat, reflux and take off.

No doubt!!!

...Had a little condensation at the top of my condenser, checked coolant and it was fairly hot but no stream, increased coolant, condensation stopped. This also never happens on reflux runs, but what was odd is it was water not alcohol....

This doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps others with a sight glass on top understand what you're saying here, but I don't.

...ABV was 80...I'm a bit miffed, I figured I would get better ABV...could it be because it was a wash and not low wines..I can get 95 when running low wines on my mesh packing...

Well, I think your SPP is too tight, not allowing adequate flow of vapor (without flooding) up the column such that your RC doesn't produce the necessary reflux to get higher %ABV. Starting with low wines will give you a higher starting point and the vigorous reflux you get with the copper mesh boosts the delta gain up to the 95%ABV measured.

How to solve this problem...may be to try a "shorter stack" of the tight SPP. 36" may be simply too much of it to allow enough vapor up the column to establish a good reflux operation.
ss

[C2H5O5]

...the new packing...(SPP) 2 liters@ about 36"...Bottom 3" copper mesh, top 3" copper mesh, about 2" below reflux return.

Can you blow through it? I fear that the SPP being that small is too tight.

I will try that as soon as the still cools

..full reflux, water coolant on...distillate was bubbling and spitting...on top of the packing. Dialed the heat back, temp rose higher than usual to 186°, It usually holds for a while at 172°.

This is confusing...that the temp goes up after dialing the heat back...unless you reduced the coolant flow. Did your coolant to the RC get reduced?

Sorry should have been clearer, using my phone to post. Temp with mesh held at 172. Temp with SPP packing went to 186, I had to back off on the heat to get the temp to drop.

..Sightglass fogged up immediately, it usually doesn't fog up until I am in the end of my run, I'm assuming it was water.

It wouldn't be water (steam) yet...you've got to get the alcohol, including fores and heads, before the water will make it to the top of your column. Plus, you said that the temperature you measured was 186*F. Water won't boil at that temperature unless you're in a partial vacuum, which I'm sure your packing isn't creating (if anything...it's the opposite).

It was a hell of a balancing act between the heat, reflux and take off.

No doubt!!!

...Had a little condensation at the top of my condenser, checked coolant and it was fairly hot but no stream, increased coolant, condensation stopped. This also never happens on reflux runs, but what was odd is it was water not alcohol....

This doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps others with a sight glass on top understand what you're saying here, but I don't.

Condensate was forming at the top of the condenser, checked the coolant where it drains and it was hot but no steam. When I wiped the condensate and smelled it, it was odorless

...ABV was 80...I'm a bit miffed, I figured I would get better ABV...could it be because it was a wash and not low wines..I can get 95 when running low wines on my mesh packing...

Well, I think your SPP is too tight, not allowing adequate flow of vapor (without flooding) up the column such that your RC doesn't produce the necessary reflux to get higher %ABV. Starting with low wines will give you a higher starting point and the vigorous reflux you get with the copper mesh boosts the delta gain up to the 95%ABV measured.

The problem isn't not enough reflux, the problem seems to be, too much reflux

How to solve this problem...may be to try a "shorter stack" of the tight SPP. 36" may be simply too much of it to allow enough vapor up the column to establish a good reflux operation.
ss

I may remove 6" of the SPP and see if that helps, it not, I'll go back to copper mesh

[C2H5O5]

Just checked tried blowing through it but couldn't tell, ended up inhaling but it was the only way I could tell, it was real hard to inhale, took out half a liter and it's much easier now, I think I'll try that and see what happens.

[rad14701]

It sure sounds like the SPP is WAY too small for your column... As soon as it becomes fully whetted it isn't allowing reflux to drop and vapor pressure is causing the percolation you are seeing... Trying less depth may help but I'm not overly optimistic... To work properly, SPP needs to be right-sized for the reflux column size...

[Hound Dog]

I am not a SPP expert but have to agree that it is just too small and causing flooding. I assume this is what you meant by bubbling and spitting on top of the packing. I run lava rocks and find that I can balance a liquid pool right at the top of my packing and this is the optimal state. I will find that during reflux (as long as nothing is flooding) if I cut the heat input back my temp will rise and if I increase the heat the temp will drop. This is due to the increase of reflux with the increased heat input stacking lower temp alcohol at the top. I have to say that I only tried SPP one time and did not obtain very good results so I have stuck to lava rocks and marbles.

[C2H5O5]

I fear you guys are correct. I'm not sure if I'm gonna even give it a chance or go back to copper mesh.
The mesh packed still is a lot easier to drive and I'm in this for enjoyment not grief.
I may chalk this up to an expensive learning experience.

[skow69]

Don't give up too quick. There is a learning curve to overcome. IIRC the diameter of an SPP spring should be about 1/10 the column diameter and the spring length should be about twice the diameter. So for a 2" column, that would make the diameter just under 1/4" and the length about 7/16". That's about what mine are, got 'em from BigSwede. But that is very odd. The specs on Manu's wares are usually spot on.

BTW don't drop the little bastards on the carpet! Or if you do, you can find 'em by walking around barefoot.

[C2H5O5]

Don't give up too quick. There is a learning curve to overcome. IIRC the diameter of an SPP spring should be about 1/10 the column diameter and the spring length should be about twice the diameter. So for a 2" column, that would make the diameter just under 1/4" and the length about 7/16". That's about what mine are, got 'em from BigSwede. But that is very odd. The specs on Manu's wares are usually spot on.

BTW don't drop the little bastards on the carpet! Or if you do, you can find 'em by walking around barefoot.

These are the specs for Manu packing
Dimensions of the SPP :
-2.4mm diameter
-2 to 3 mm length
-0.25mm wire diameter
-wire is stainless steel 304
I guess these are 1/20th the column (2")

[skow69]

FWIW this is where I got that idea. http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3 ... r&start=15
I was wrong about the length, he says it should be the same as the diameter. I don't know what makes this guy an expert, except he's Russian and talks a good rap. All things being equal, I would probably put just as much faith in Manu.

EDIT: Maybe Odin will weigh in here.

[cob]

Manu responded promptly to all my e-mails.

e-mail manu a link to this post and see what he has to say.

All things being equal, I would probably put just as much faith in Manu.

EDIT: Maybe Odin will weigh in here.

manu would be a better weigh in than odin in this case

[C2H5O5]

Manu responded promptly to all my e-mails.

e-mail manu a link to this post and see what he has to say.

All things being equal, I would probably put just as much faith in Manu.

EDIT: Maybe Odin will weigh in here.

manu would be a better weigh in than odin in this case

Just sent Manu an e-mail with a link...keeping my fingers crossed

[DAD300]

Once hot, SPP will take less power than you are used to. It will also take less reflux than you are used to.

You said 36" of packing...so that might be 36 Theoretical Plates...you don't really need ANY reflux.

Also...make sure your reflux is not too cold. If it is too cold (reflux condenser waste water should be ~140F) it will not penetrate the SPP and flash/flood on top.

As you heat the still, you should be able to feel the outside of the column and feel the heat rise inch by inch.When you reduce power to the boiler the extra mass of the SPP will continue to get hotter at the top for a while.

[skow69]

COB, I thought Odin was selling SPP also.

DAD, I don't get it. Why would hotter reflux penetrate better than cool?

[C2H5O5]

Once hot, SPP will take less power than you are used to. It will also take less reflux than you are used to.

yes heat was dialed back a lot, and yes, less reflux my usual is 4-1, I will try 1-1

You said 36" of packing...so that might be 36 Theoretical Plates...you don't really need ANY reflux.

I am now at about 26-28" of packing, I removed half a liter.

Also...make sure your reflux is not too cold. If it is too cold (reflux condenser waste water should be ~140F) it will not penetrate the SPP and flash/flood on top.

It may have been colder than I usually run, I will definitely check that

As you heat the still, you should be able to feel the outside of the column and feel the heat rise inch by inch.When you reduce power to the boiler the extra mass of the SPP will continue to get hotter at the top for a while.

it seemed the column got hot all of a sudden. There was another thing I failed to mention, I got a small leak from the tri fitting and copper adapter, it was weeping ever so slightly, I'm assuming it was due to the extra pressure buildup from the packing, I re tightened while the still was hot and no weeping.

I also added some copper mesh To the reflux condenser for next run

[cob]

COB, I thought Odin was selling SPP also.

not all SPP is created equally, and unless Odin is using and selling the same SPP as Manu

who better than manu to provide insight into his products idiosyncrasies as opposed to one more speculator.

edited to add I'm not saying speculation is bad, just look at all the innovation here on hd that started as speculation.

[skow69]

not all SPP is created equally, and unless Odin is using and selling the same SPP as Manu

I am hoping to hear Odin's theory about the optimum size for the springs, and whether or not it is dependent on the diameter of the column. Odin usually has firmly held opinions about such things and often has convincing research to back them up. At this point I don't see anyone with the credentials to qualify as an authority so I want to examine as many different theories as possible. Did you read the information from Dog's Master? He obviously has a lot of experience. My limited research yesterday turned up an industrial supplier who sells every millimeter from 1 mm X 1 mm up to 6 mm X 6 mm, but no explanation of how to spec the right size.

who better than manu to provide insight into his products idiosyncrasies as opposed to one more speculator.

Of course. I'm all atwitter waiting for Manu's explanation, as well.

edited to add I'm not saying speculation is bad, just look at all the innovation here on hd that started as speculation.

But speculation is not the same thing as extrapolating information from a theory so that you can apply the principle to a problem at hand. You don't always have to accept the vendor's advice as the final word. I love the way my (modified) SPP performs. If it is the wrong size, I want to know why.

[C2H5O5]

I have been in touch with Manu and he has offered some suggestions, I will try to summarize a bit.

1) The most likely problem is the one you feared yourself initially, flooding because the power is too much. If that is so, removing some SPP wont help, it will just flood lower in the column, here are some suggestions :

2) First thing to do is to make sure the SPP top level reaches the sight glass, that way you will know right away when you are flooding (liquid will pool on top of the SPP) remove copper packing from the top of the SPP

3) If you flood you have to cut the output, change the jar if you took in too much low abv, lower the heat *and wait at full reflux* until the temperature comes down to 172 F or so

4) Please do not bother managing reflux temp, what matters is vapour  temp (your thermo would be better placed above the sight glass to this effect)

5) After pouring the SPP dont compress it too much to fit more in, I recommend tapping the column no more than twice  on the floor to slightly compress the SPP. If you didn't compress the SPP (tapping the column) this recommendation doesn't apply

6) You have to insulate your column


I plan on removing the packing and put it back in without tapping, just about an inch below the sight glass with no copper mesh on top. This will probably be slightly under 2 liters and I'm guessing 36" of packing.
I can get my burner pretty low so I do have pretty good heat control.
I will most likely add a digital thermo to just above the sightglass or on top of the 2" cap
for #6 I'm not sure if it needs it, the still is in a shed that gets up to 120F easily, no wind/no draft. but if the man says to do it I'm going to at least try it.

[Brutal]

Interesting read! Looking forward to following along.

[rad14701]

DAD, I don't get it. Why would hotter reflux penetrate better than cool?

That dreaded shock cooling effect rearing its ugly head again which causes vapor collapse in the top portion of the column and that liquid gets pushed back up by vapor pressure buildup...

[DAD300]

Super cooled (too cold) reflux will cool the SPP on top and cause a pool of liquid only at the top. There are videos on youtube that show this.

It becomes very hard to stop a flood that gets to the takeoff of a VM. Not a Puke, a flood. This is also why I have a wad of SS Scrubbie at the top.

You can learn to run that SPP. It will have it's own parameters, heat, takeoff, etc...it will take some experimenting.

[C2H5O5]

Super cooled (too cold) reflux will cool the SPP on top and cause a pool of liquid only at the top. There are videos on youtube that show this.

It becomes very hard to stop a flood that gets to the takeoff of a VM. Not a Puke, a flood. This is also why I have a wad of SS Scrubbie at the top.
.

This is what I thought as well but Manu's suggestion...

4) Please do not bother managing reflux temp, what matters is vapour temp (your thermo would be better placed above the sight glass to this effect)

..... has me confused, I was under the impression to return the reflux hot. Pertaining to running your Reflux Coolant hot but not too hot where there is steam/vapor exiting your coolant output.
So vapor temp and hot reflux go hand in hand... I hope that makes sense?