Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

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yakattack
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

Thanks cob. That makes sense. I will have to make a tray just for fans to force air movement up through the grain bed. Should be pretty easy.

Sp- thanks. I actually enjoyed the build. It needs a bit of trim to cover exposed end grains in the wood but otherwise I'm happy with it.


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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

Just finishing up my malt cabinet now. Just recording wet weights per draw used with this batch that's ready today.

Pics to come.
Draw one
3561 grams wet weight

Drawer 2
3722 grams wet weight.

Drawer 3
2396 grams
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

And she's done for now. Have grain in the cabinet drying as I type this. Will report later how well it dries. Now I need to come up with a small teat protocol to measure how well it malted. Thinking cooking a small amount, and testing the wort. Have to figure that out yet.

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Attachments
Controller mounted to the side of cabinet. Thermo probe in the grain bed.  Got to love plug and play.
Controller mounted to the side of cabinet. Thermo probe in the grain bed. Got to love plug and play.
Close up of fans installed and underside of the screen material with grain in. Fans blowing up through the grain bed.
Close up of fans installed and underside of the screen material with grain in. Fans blowing up through the grain bed.
Fans in place in cabinet.
Fans in place in cabinet.
Fans wired in
Fans wired in
Grain in the drawer.
Grain in the drawer.
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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bitter
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by bitter »

To figure out malt rate, I do it with sprouts on.. take a part handful and then see what percent malted.

After than then do a small 1g mash in a pot on the stove. I like to do same as what I would do for wort and aim at about 1.065 based on weight...

You will need to check the % moisture aft malt.. this will effect things.. BTW the wheat I got from you had about a 90% malt rate. To check moisture % after malting I used a small cloth bag. Put 1 lb of dried malt and then put in the over at as low as I could 170F for 1-2 hours... then weigh the malt. See what % moisture... then you will know really how much malt you have and a good check for your drying routine. This 1 lb of malt will be toasted a bit.. you can use higher temps... to make different malts... ad adjunct for flavor. Plan on this 1 lb being for flavors as much of the enzymes will be destroyed from the higher temp.

You could make a honey like or carmel malt.
Here is a good reference for malt temps
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/exp ... r-own-malt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

For a caramel or honey malt you would want to put the grain and soak them and then in overn toast about 155-158F for a while to get the malt to convert and get sweet for about 1 hour. Once its sweet, then toast at higher temp to get caramel/ honey flavors... I tried once and it was not perfect... I toasted at 350F for about 20 minutes.. was not enough... need more I think.. Try and sample go based on smell and taste a grain or 2 as you go..

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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by StillerBoy »

Yak.. you have a very nice built and well documented, and it should work well..

You may have to rotate the drawers, the top drawer may not get enough air if you pack them to heavy, otherwise should be ok..

Mars
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

Thanks Mars. Ya I have had to rotate them already. But this batch is almost 10kg of malt. I will keep batch sizes to 6 kg max and spread over 4 trays to keep the air flow.

Right now I have the fans blowing up through the grain bed. I'm wondering if I would get better drying if I had the fans mounted at the sides at the bottom drawing exterior air in over the element and allowing it to escape up. As it is right now I'm not sure if I'm getting the best air flow. I am also going to keep my eyes oven for a better 120v fan as these ones don't seem to move as much air as I'd like
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by speedfreaksteve »

Looks great! What do you use for steeping that much grain all at once for the first step?
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

Steve- each batch starts out with 4 scoops from a pitcher ( aproxx 4kg) and into a bucket. 5 gallon bucket is perfect for this amount and up to 6 kg. After that you're going to be over flowing at some point.

Then I use a few totes, the clear kind for cloths that slide under a bed, for my germination process. I will be building a slow tumbler for this step at some point I think. But we will see.

Then its into the kiln to dry,

After 20 hours this last batch still isn't done. For some reason my controller let the temp really drop.... not sure why it did that. Weighed drawer one totaled 2518 grams with a starting weight of 3561grams..

Which is a 30% moisture content reduction. Close to where I want to me but not quite there. I am assuming around 10% Mc to begin with. Steeping will bring it up to 450%Mc. I need to bring it below 10% if I plan to store it. Which I don't right now.

I'm going to increase my base drying temp to 38*c after a few more hours of research. At this temp the most I should lose is about 6 to 7 percent of the enzimes activity. Which isn't bad at all.

Into the oven at 170 with the fan blowing and the door cracked open for 2 hours is hr next step for drawer 1. Starting in a few minutes.

New weights to come in 2 hours
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

Figured out why it's not working. I have to replace the element. The plug connection over heated and broke the connection.
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

After 2 hours in the oven at 170 the weight is down to 2258 grams. Which is an aditional 8% moisture reduction. Now they stay open in the bin for up to 2 weeks before use. This batch is all going to vodka so no extra toasting is required.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by Bushman »

Yak, this is a great thread. Thanks for documenting the steps for other interested members, sharing is what makes this forum great.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

Thanks bushman. I've honestly really enjoyed it and if I can give back even 1 percent of what I've gained from this community I think I will have done ok. If anyone wants it I can do a start to finish ( day by day ) malting thread. I know myself I learn better with visuals so I would take a lot of pictures as well. There are however a few really good threads on malting all ready.
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

Hmmm.
Did a quick test mash of 1 lb of the malt. I think both my protical and my malting need work.

I took 1 lb and ground it in my mill.

Took 2 qts of water and brought it to 170f. Removed from heat. Added malt and stirred temp settled at 155. Covered and wrapped in a towel for 90 min, temp dropped to 102. Poured mash through a strainer to remove grain. Took sg reading. After converting for temp sg of 1.025.

Going to take this lb and wort and bring it back up to 155, try and hold it at that temp for an hour or so, see if it brings up the sg to a more respectable lvl. I need to get some iodine to do a starch test.
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

Brought temp back up to 150 and held for an aditional 90 minutes. No water or grain added.

After temp correction sg is now sitting at 1.035 or 47% so better conversion but not great. I'm going to be chalking that up to the fact that I didn't get the greatest malt conversion with this barley. It is feed stock.

Any thoughts, advice, tips are always welcome.

Next test. Bring same grain and wart to a boil. Add an aditional 2 qts and mash in another lb orlf the malt. See if that brings it up.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by speedfreaksteve »

47% is fine for a first time. Your malting quality will surely improve. I find that you get better malt if you can dry it slower rather than using an oven as well. Your setup should work well for that if you have it dialed in right.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by Badmotivator »

I've been enjoying watching your product, yak. But now I'm confused. My gut tells me that your malt has plenty of enzymes. After all, commercial malt has many multiples of the diastatic power it needs to convert itself. For your malt to not convert even its own starch must mean that you have a really tiny fraction of its potential DP? Either that or there is something wiggy about your mash test? I'm curious about what your working hypothesis is.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

BadMO - to be honest Im kinda scratching my head too. Can you think of a different test protocol to try? I'd love to narrow this down and nip it in the butt now.

I had assumed it was because I only got around 50 percent of the grain to malt, but barley gelentanizes at a lower temp then barley malt. So it should have converated to around 1.055 to 1.068ish.
But it didn't....
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

I'd like to build something like this myself for corn. Your cabinet looks like just the ticket.

Can you tell me a little bit more about what you're using for a heating element? What temps are you seeing in the grain beds?
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

Mch- the element is the element from my electric smoker. Simple small oven element. I don't bring it up past 38c in case I denature the enzimes..( which speaking of that may be why this batch didn't work out so well. That lb had also been oven dried at 170f after being in the kiln.

I'm controlling the element with an ink bird temp controller. I like it. So the grin bed never gets more than a degree or two about 38c if there's anything specific you want a picture of let me know.

You could in reality use a stove element or a small oven element.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

yakattack wrote: If anyone wants it I can do a start to finish ( day by day ) malting thread. I know myself I learn better with visuals so I would take a lot of pictures as well.
+1
We can always use more info about malting corn around here!
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

Haha if I had a way to grind the corn after if do it. Maybe I'll do a small test batch if I can get my hands on se.un cracked corn. Right now all I have is wheat and barley.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by bitter »

MichiganCornhusker wrote:
yakattack wrote: If anyone wants it I can do a start to finish ( day by day ) malting thread. I know myself I learn better with visuals so I would take a lot of pictures as well.
+1
We can always use more info about malting corn around here!
+2 !!!!

Also I think your efficiency is better than you think

1lb in 2l of water should At 100% will get max 1.062. You got 1.035 about 60% (Did you cool your sample before measuring I don't find calculators for adjust to work very well if your temp was 140 when measured could be int he 1.050 range)

I have a few comments. Putting in water at 170 (strike water temp) would denature some enzymes. For a test like this I like to target a mash temp of 148F were more beta is active. For beer about a 152F s a nice rounded beer not too sweet but also ferments to about 1.010 - 1.012 normally depending on yeast used.

How fine did you mill you grain. for recirculating systems larger crash is best.. for BIAB you want the grain crushed but pretty well. almost flour'd but husk still intacted. Another tip get a small BIAB bag to keep the grain off the bottom of the pan.

You can get use something like this if you can't find pure iodine.

https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/BTF_Iod ... itizer.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

It a good sanitizer also.

B
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

Second attempt.

Following bitters numbers,

1 lb of barley malt
2 lts of water

Combine water and malt in pot.
Slowly heat to 148. Hold between 145 and 150 for 90 min.
Pour mash through strainer. Simulate sparge by pouring drained mash back through the grains while in the strainer.

Took sg reading. 1.031 at 42.2c after conversion that's sg of 1.037

Took an aditional 2 ltrs of water at 48*c and sparge into a seperated container. Measured and got 1.000 so no risidual sugars left in the grain.

Calculate gives me these numbers

Gravity at 100% Efficiency:
1.072 - max
Gravity at 75% Efficiency:
1.054
* Efficiency:
51.39%
Points / Pound / Gallon (ppg):
18.5


Not happy with where I'm at with this. I can taste starch still. I'm going to step away from barley and switch to wheat and see if it's my process or this batch of grain.

Thoughts?
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

yakattack wrote:Thoughts?
Two things:

Have you tried an iodine test for starch yet? Might tell you if you definitely have residual starches that are not being converted.

Second, I have noticed this happen with corn malt. Try another test:
Put 1# of your ground up malt in one gallon of water and bring to a boil. Cool to 150F and add another pound of your crushed malt.
Mash for a couple hours.

If you are still at SG 1.037 then we know something. If you get better numbers then we know something else.
I know that with corn I definitely get better numbers by boiling most of my corn malt and using some the remainder for its enzymes.
Unlike corn, your barley should gelatinize at mash temps, but maybe a good strong cooking will make some of the starches more available to the enzymes.

Edit: A third thing. You could try mashing at lower temps, say 140F, to avoid denaturing your enzymes. Then they should convert everything even if the DP is lowish, just a bit slower.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

I will have to try the boiling test. If I'm lucky that will work.

I will have to pick up iodine tomorrow. Thanks mch. Will update once I try the boil.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Another thought, depending on how long your malting process went on, your grains may have become overmodified.

Another possible test: add equal parts malt and raw wheat flour to see if that raises your SG. That would show if you have plenty of enzymes.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by bitter »

What temperature are you malting at? Ideally you want to be in mid to low 60s or get more uneven malting.

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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

Well guys. Verdict on iodine test is in. There is still a lot of un converted starch. Going to do what mch suggested. Boil 1 lb and convert with another. Pound is boiling right now. Will know in a few hours. Going to add malt and hold at 140 as per suggestion.
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by yakattack »

Well here are the results.

Boiled 1 lb crushed barley malt in 3 ltrs of water.
Then brought to 140f. Added 1 lb of crushed malt. Held at 140f for 2 hours.

Took sample of clear beer. Zero starch in the clear.

Took sg and after correcting for temp I endnup with 1.051.

Using the same calculator as before I get this for efficiency.

Gravity at 100% Efficiency:
1.090 - max
Gravity at 75% Efficiency:
1.068
* Efficiency:
56.58%
Points / Pound / Gallon (ppg):
20.4

Out of curiosity I re did the iodime test on the cloudy beer. This showed starch off the scale. The iodine went almost black. If I remember correctly this is a false positive due to fine pieces of the crushed barly such as the husk.. unless I'm wrong.

So with this in mind, i am ready to chalk this up to the majority of the malt being under or over modified.

Unless you see a possible different cause I'm which case I'm all ears to hear another possible solution.

* scratches head*
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Re: Building a malt kiln/ drying cabinet.

Post by bitter »

You have me purplexed...

By chance have you done a boil test on your thermometer to see what it reads. 212F should be boiling hard. I'm wondering if your thermometer is off.. and pushing mash temp too high denaturing your enzymes?

B
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