Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

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AZM
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Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by AZM »

Hi everyone,

I've been searching web for a couple of days to build my own distiller. I am engineer by the way but not the chemical one.

I decided to make 4" fractional reflux column with ordinary vapor management design. (plate fractionation + reflux condenser + condenser).

But did not decide on the type of fraction and did not decide the material (ss/copper/glass?)

Probably I'll make both perforated and bubble plates.

Building this standart column design is not my concern. It is alredy done and discussed at various topics.

My concern is to built it in more easier and cheapest way, and use minimum amount of sources. I am not a modular designer guy. According to my opinion when someone tries to make something modular, the cost usually gets higher and higher and consumed time gets longer and longer.

I want to discuss the following issues with you guys.

1. Perforated plate.
Why not use stripboard for the plate? It has 0.1" predrilled pattern. I think drilling tiny and many holes is very very difficult.
Stripboards are cheap and easy to procure. I have doubts about the sanitary class of it, and will investigate about that but I guess it does not have any issues. It is resistant to alcohol and high temperatures. Why not use?

2.Why do everyone built inspection/sight glasses for all the fraction levels. Once these glasses are removed, total cost decreases enourmously.
If cleaning is the concern, male threads can be tapped and fractions can be coupled with threaded couplings.

3. Why all the designs are cylindiric? We don't have high pressure and high speed fluid flow along the system. Cubic fraction rooms may also be employed. If this decrease the cost of built, why not use?

4. We are not dealing with high pressure system when distilling, but most of the systems designed seems to be made of parts which work at high pressures.

In my opinion just after we get our fluid at vapour stage , and the vapor is flooded and captured inside the tubes, no outer materal is important. If the vapor does not interact with the material, why use expensive material? For this reason utlizing ss or copper outer sleeeve for the dephlegmator/condenser is just waste of sources.

5. Bubble plate.
I met a youtuve video in which a guy built bubble caps from plasma cutter tip and standart pipe cap. I liked this idea and note here if someone uses this as well.


These are my argues on the hardware.

I am welcome to discuss any suggestions.

Regards.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by still_stirrin »

AZM wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:56 am... I am not a modular designer guy. According to my opinion when someone tries to make something modular, the cost usually gets higher and higher and consumed time gets longer and longer.
What kind of “engineer” are you?

I would hope that you have a thorough comprehension of your requirements for the distillation system. You know ALL the products you intend to produce. You know the quantity of the products you plan to produce and what you intend to do with them. You understand how to produce the spirits and what to do to make them consumable.

What modular design gives you is the ability (without significant rebuilding and reassembly) to produce a variety of products. You can use common components needed for different products. In this sense, modularity is the BEST economically. Instead of “point designed”, the modular still affords flexibility of design. Since flexible design features are included in a modular still, the “first cost” may be slightly higher. But, it will be significantly less costly than building multiples of systems to meet the varying requirements of different products.

If your requirements are only for “a one trick pony”, then a point designed system could suffice. Otherwise, you’re just naive.

AZM wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:56 am 1. Perforated plate.
Why not use stripboard for the plate? It has 0.1" predrilled pattern. I think drilling tiny and many holes is very very difficult.
Stripboards are cheap and easy to procure. I have doubts about the sanitary class of it, and will investigate about that but I guess it does not have any issues. It is resistant to alcohol and high temperatures. Why not use?
What the heck is “stripboard”?

For perforated plate systems, the size and hole pattern and even number of holes affects the vapor to liquid interaction as well as vapor throughput. If the stripboard can satisfy the requirements, then perhaps it might be an acceptable material for your system.

And materials selection does matter because the column is a hazardous environment with volatile and corrosive fluids. And bear in mind that the product will be consumed by humans, so sanitary considerations apply too.
AZM wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:56 am 2.Why do everyone built inspection/sight glasses for all the fraction levels. Once these glasses are removed, total cost decreases enourmously.
If cleaning is the concern, male threads can be tapped and fractions can be coupled with threaded couplings.
Sightglasses are not a “hard requirement”. In fact, multi-plate designs have been built without sightglasses installed. But, the sightglass does give a “window” inside the column where the vapor/liquid interaction occurs and the process can be observed for successful (and stable) operation. They’re just a nice feature to include.

I’m sure that other solutions for monitoring the process could be implemented. But, high-tech monitoring systems could add to the system cost. So, production demands and capital cost should be fully vetted first. Develop your system’s requirements before you proceed to design and then fabrication/production, or you’ll be building and rebuilding throughout the process. This is my advice, as I am a senior systems design engineer with extensive mechanical system design experience.
AZM wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:56 am 3. Why all the designs are cylindiric? We don't have high pressure and high speed fluid flow along the system. Cubic fraction rooms may also be employed. If this decrease the cost of built, why not use?
There have been column still designs discussed (and built) by members on this website which were not cylindrical. And they have worked. But not without compromise. And often that owed to increased manufacturing expense. Common materials are selected due to cost and availability, making them popular for our designs. Plumbing pipes are cylindrical and the easiest to source and construct with.

And system maintenance should be one of your system’s requirements. Unusual, non-conventional design may be challenging to keep clean mechanically. Round pipes are easy to scrub, if and when necessary. A square tube has internal corners that may provide nucleation points for buildup of resins and constituents entrained in the vapor stream.
AZM wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:56 am 4. We are not dealing with high pressure system when distilling, but most of the systems designed seems to be made of parts which work at high pressures.

In my opinion just after we get our fluid at vapour stage , and the vapor is flooded and captured inside the tubes, no outer materal is important. If the vapor does not interact with the material, why use expensive material? For this reason utlizing ss or copper outer sleeeve for the dephlegmator/condenser is just waste of sources.
Don’t forget that material selection includes fluid flow properties and thermal transfer considerations. Copper is an excellent heat transfer material and works well to conduct heat from rising vapors and pasing that heat to falling condensate. This amplifies the reflux process. Sure, it is an expensive material to use, but there is a reason why distillation systems have used it as a material of choice for years.

And copper also has a chemical interaction that helps eliminate sulfides from the product. You’ve got to decompose your requirements to develop a solution for the product(s) you intend to produce. Making rum....there will be sulfurs in the ferment to contend with in your still. Plan for it.
AZM wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:56 am 5. Bubble plate.
I met a youtuve video in which a guy built bubble caps from plasma cutter tip and standart pipe cap. I liked this idea and note here if someone uses this as well.

These are my argues on the hardware.

I am welcome to discuss any suggestions.
Why not consider laser cut perforations?

There are many manufacturing processes available to a builder, but it depends on the budget for the system. If you’re a “garage builder”, then the tools available and cost effective will dictate your build. If you have access to industrial machinery (like a plasma cutter) then your toolset is greater than many, if not most hobbiests on our site. “Use what you got” for sure. There aren’t restrictions on how you build...just do it.

And in conclusion, I caution you with respect to relying on Youtube as your source for distilling knowledge...there is a lot of bad information out there and you could be led into a dangerous situation. On this website, we stress safety first. And the membership here represents a world of knowledge of the hobby. Read and learn and you’ll understand better the reasons behind the many designs discussed here. Almost all questions have already been asked and answered many times before, so seek them out and you’ll know.

Be safe. Be responsible. And be discrete.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by OtisT »

AZM,
If less expensive and simple is a major criteria and you think windows are undesirable, you should consider building a simple packed column section. They are very efficient for fractioning and certainly cheaper and simpler than any plated solution. Just buy or make a spool and fill with mesh and Shazam!

+1 to SS’s reply.

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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by LWTCS »

1. The thing is, hole size, active area,and inactive area have to more or less be commensurately sized according to your power input. Otherwise you'll have flooding if you don't want to run slow as dirt. Or you won't be able to load the plates at all because the hole size is too big.

2. With out the sight glass some of the bits in answer #1 will be unknown for you. Though you are likely a very smart person, your lack of experience will make it difficult to trouble shoot with out a good visual indicator imo.

3. Pipe / Tubing is easiest to source for the average slob. Can do square if ya like. On really large scale stuff square likely helps with improving laminar flow. Does all that matter at the hobby scale? Naw.

4. Because much of what is used in the form of tri clamp parts originally comes from industries that do indeed deal with higher pressure. As it turns out, this material makes for a finished product that will last a life time and it makes it intrinsically more safe . What wrong with that?
I am ambivalent about your assertion that an HX shell doesn't have to be expensive material. Plenty of folks around here have used other materials and so it just seems you need to dig deeper.

5. When I think of a fractional column, I think of multiple take off ports that will allow you to draw off product from various points on the gradient. If this is your intended goal I would use bubble caps. I would also not draw off product with vapor management technique. Notwithstanding entrainment, you'll get a better result (and still behavior if you have SIGHT GLASSES) by drawing off finished product as liquid when it comes to fractioning. Though this way of thinking probably applies more for continuous distillation, I feel you'll still benefit for batch.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by fizzix »

*Stripboards are those fiberglass/resin hobby-style circuit boards.
Blank on one side, and copper-cladding on the other.

stripboard.jpg
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by LWTCS »

fizzix wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:45 am *Stripboards are those fiberglass/resin hobby-style circuit boards.
Blank on one side, and copper-cladding on the other.


stripboard.jpg
Oh lord,,,,let me step aside and put my hard hat on.....
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by AZM »

Thanks buddy for your time..
still_stirrin wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:23 am What kind of “engineer” are you?
Just an ordinary one with considerable/sufficient amount of engineering insight.
still_stirrin wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:23 am I would hope that you have a thorough comprehension of your requirements for the distillation system. You know ALL the products you intend to produce. You know the quantity of the products you plan to produce and what you intend to do with them. You understand how to produce the spirits and what to do to make them consumable.
Yes, of course.. This is why I am concentrating on fractional column.

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:23 am What modular design gives you is the ability (without significant rebuilding and reassembly) to produce a variety of products. You can use common components needed for different products. In this sense, modularity is the BEST economically. Instead of “point designed”, the modular still affords flexibility of design. Since flexible design features are included in a modular still, the “first cost” may be slightly higher. But, it will be significantly less costly than building multiples of systems to meet the varying requirements of different products.

If your requirements are only for “a one trick pony”, then a point designed system could suffice. Otherwise, you’re just naive.
Well, This is an approach my friend. I agree you in some circumstances. But do not agree you in this occasion. Flexibility of design and purpose of design are close friends. They never "walk alone". Cheers ! I need to take a sip.

In most cases, I see modular modular designs. i.e. modular fraction rooms in a modular distillation system. This is certainly not a good design. In my opinion it is waste of sources.

Modularity is a trap. It is a black hole, if you don't know how to use it.

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:23 am
What the heck is “stripboard”?

for perforated plate systems, the size and hole pattern and even number of holes affects the vapor to liquid interaction as well as vapor throughput. If the stripboard can satisfy the requirements, then perhaps it might be an acceptable material for your system.

And materials selection does matter because the column is a hazardous environment with volatile and corrosive fluids. And bear in mind that the product will be consumed by humans, so sanitary considerations apply too.

I'd prefer you to google or wiki it before writing. I understand you are aware of internet misinformation but I again stongly disagree you about this. What the hell we are doing here if internet is full of junk information. Internet connects people information. It is our duty to pick and process them.


Stripboard is a perforated board used in electronics.

By the way, bearing in mind the technical requirements, I would like to discuss the employment of this hardware. It looks like it meets the requirements. Why not use it.

For sanitary requirements... I already told that I am not sure and investigate about it.

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:23 am Sightglasses........ They’re just a nice feature to include.
It is a nice and so fancy feature. But increases cost as every nice things do.

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:23 am I’m sure that other solutions for monitoring the process could be implemented. But, high-tech monitoring systems could add to the system cost. So, production demands and capital cost should be fully vetted first. Develop your system’s requirements before you proceed to design and then fabrication/production, or you’ll be building and rebuilding throughout the process. This is my advice, as I am a senior systems design engineer with extensive mechanical system design experience.
I certainly agree. But my discussion is about the cost. It increases the cost. I am also a senior engineer (aerospace) with extensive amount of high tech mechanic and electronic systems design and manufacture experience.

I can assure you that distillation is not a rocket science :) However I was a bit shocked when I read flow management control techniques in here. Nothing can stop a human from his purpose.

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:23 am There have been column still designs discussed (and built) by members on this website which were not cylindrical. And they have worked. But not without compromise. And often that owed to increased manufacturing expense. Common materials are selected due to cost and availability, making them popular for our designs. Plumbing pipes are cylindrical and the easiest to source and construct with.

And system maintenance should be one of your system’s requirements. Unusual, non-conventional design may be challenging to keep clean mechanically. Round pipes are easy to scrub, if and when necessary. A square tube has internal corners that may provide nucleation points for buildup of resins and constituents entrained in the vapor stream.
Since I am new at this forum and distillation universe. I have not experienced off the road home made designs yet. I will be looking for them. Each configuration is very very valuable and may provide information about more to come.

By the way, I am not arguing about usage of plumbing pipes, Of course it is the first ring to bell when we are dealing with any kind of flow.

my point is why not use other materails as well. For example, we have distillation at a tea/coffee pot. (I am thinking out loud now, please don't judge) The first thing may come into mind for this example is why not we use a multi staged teapot with some modifications.

The flow may also fractionate at each pot. Of course there may be losses but the concept is same.

Most designs we are dealing here do hot have higher pressure or higher temparature than the pressure and the temperature while making a tea in a teapot. Major difference that create hazardous enviroenment is the alcohol. Which is also a more volatile fluid than water. But this is certainly manageable at this nonpressurized levels. We all know and take the risks of it.

My friend. I hope you got my point. I am trying to discuss efficiency/compromise, final product/total cost, What we got/what we give. The rest is not nuclear physics.

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:23 am Don’t forget that material selection includes fluid flow properties and thermal transfer considerations. Copper is an excellent heat transfer material and works well to conduct heat from rising vapors and pasing that heat to falling condensate. This amplifies the reflux process. Sure, it is an expensive material to use, but there is a reason why distillation systems have used it as a material of choice for years.

And copper also has a chemical interaction that helps eliminate sulfides from the product. You’ve got to decompose your requirements to develop a solution for the product(s) you intend to produce. Making rum....there will be sulfurs in the ferment to contend with in your still. Plan for it.
:) That's good information. Thank you.

However, I guess you missed the point or I did not explain myself clear enough. I told, "If the vapor does not interact with the material, why use expensive material? For this reason utlizing ss or copper outer sleeeve for the dephlegmator/condenser is just waste of sources."

The material I am mentioning is the outer sleeve of the condensation units. They do not have to be copper or ss. Also they do not have to be sanitary class as well. They do not physically interact the fluid.

The effective heat transfer is in between the fluid (which flows in inside copper or ss tube) and the coolant fluid. The outer material has insignificant effect. Except you want a heat transfer in between the coolant and the environment. But that is not the case here.

That is why usage of expensive material for the coverage of condensations units is waste of money and sources.

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:23 am And copper also has a chemical interaction that helps eliminate sulfides from the product. You’ve got to decompose your requirements to develop a solution for the product(s) you intend to produce. Making rum....there will be sulfurs in the ferment to contend with in your still. Plan for it.
That is valuable information. Thank you.

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:23 am Why not consider laser cut perforations?

There are many manufacturing processes available to a builder, but it depends on the budget for the system. If you’re a “garage builder”, then the tools available and cost effective will dictate your build. If you have access to industrial machinery (like a plasma cutter) then your toolset is greater than many, if not most hobbiests on our site. “Use what you got” for sure. There aren’t restrictions on how you build...just do it.
Most of us are not professionals here, and do not have industrial machinery at home.

"Use what you got" components mostly does not affect the efficiency of the system much. Bear in mind, in most cases, your conceptual or preliminatry design ideas is far more efficent than the efficienty of the quality of the product you utilize for that design.

In this case, plasma cutter tip and a standart copper cap are examples for on the shelf products. With a small modification you may have a bubble cap.

And utilizing this quality of bubble cap at your system most probably have insignificant loss on efficiency. The concept is important here.


I hope I reflected my insight here.

I gave the stripboard and plasma tip example for simplifying the manufacturing process with a little compromise from the efficiency, but the cost drop is high. I am very welcome to these kind of suggestions

And of course safety is first, sharing knowledge is very precious.

Thank you.
Last edited by AZM on Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by AZM »

LWTCS wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:57 am 1. The thing is, hole size, active area,and inactive area have to more or less be commensurately sized according to your power input. Otherwise you'll have flooding if you don't want to run slow as dirt. Or you won't be able to load the plates at all because the hole size is too big.

2. With out the sight glass some of the bits in answer #1 will be unknown for you. Though you are likely a very smart person, your lack of experience will make it difficult to trouble shoot with out a good visual indicator imo.

3. Pipe / Tubing is easiest to source for the average slob. Can do square if ya like. On really large scale stuff square likely helps with improving laminar flow. Does all that matter at the hobby scale? Naw.

4. Because much of what is used in the form of tri clamp parts originally comes from industries that do indeed deal with higher pressure. As it turns out, this material makes for a finished product that will last a life time and it makes it intrinsically more safe . What wrong with that?
I am ambivalent about your assertion that an HX shell doesn't have to be expensive material. Plenty of folks around here have used other materials and so it just seems you need to dig deeper.

5. When I think of a fractional column, I think of multiple take off ports that will allow you to draw off product from various points on the gradient. If this is your intended goal I would use bubble caps. I would also not draw off product with vapor management technique. Notwithstanding entrainment, you'll get a better result (and still behavior if you have SIGHT GLASSES) by drawing off finished product as liquid when it comes to fractioning. Though this way of thinking probably applies more for continuous distillation, I feel you'll still benefit for batch.

Thank you for reply.

1. I understand. The bigger the hole size, the higher the feed power to prevent flooding. Anyhow, I will be looking for more subsitute plates which may be easily accessed.

I did not size it by the way but, immediately searched over the net for off the shelves products. And came up with 2.3mm drilled plates at Aliexpress. This stripboard has 2.54mm drill. And asked the users here if somebody also considered it?


2. Yeah. I here to gain experience before doing it. Thank you for your compliment. We all are.

3. You got my point.

4. There is nothing wrong with that. To make an anolgy, if your aim is to travel a distance on a rough terrain, you don't choose a 4 wheel SUV to arrive your destionation. Yoy may use, but you don't have to. It is not necessary. A truck is enough and sufficient.

And I am new to this forum. I am still fast scaning over the pages to see the examples. If I missed those kind of examples, thats my mistake.

5. At first, I also chose to proceed with bubble caps. At first thought, I saw no difference between them. They are almost identical. They both bubble.

But I read some comments that claimed better aromatic results for perforated plate technique. According to me the major difference between the concepta is (please correct me if I'm wrong) the streaming vapor is bathed with the fluid at the same temperature by bubbling. On the other hand, at perforated plate, the higher temperature vapor is bathed with the fluid at lower temperature

I'm trying to bind how this temperature difference affect the aroma.
Last edited by AZM on Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by AZM »

fizzix wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:45 am *Stripboards are those fiberglass/resin hobby-style circuit boards.
Blank on one side, and copper-cladding on the other.


stripboard.jpg
Why, what bothered you? I did not got the point.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by LWTCS »

"According to me the major difference between the concepta is (please correct me if I'm wrong) the streaming vapor is bathed with the fluid at the same temperature by bubbling. On the other hand, at perforated plate, the higher temperature vapor is bathed with the fluid at lower temperature"


Well,,,,I'm not really sure what all that means?
My recommendation is predicated upon the turn down ratio of each system. Bubble caps have the largest operating range because they do not require pressure to maintain liquid hold up,and therefore are a bit more forgiving to run.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by AZM »

Yes, that is simply the explanation . "require pressure to maintain liquid hold up"


This is the kinematics of the vapor. Lets try to define in more detail.

First, we have to define the conditions.

Lets say the system is being heated sufficiently and continuosly and vaporization process is just started and the system is not at equilibrium state:

1. At bubble cap, lets say.

There will be e temperature difference between the upcoming vapor and the fluid on the upper room. It is expected that the upcoming vapor is slightly higher than upstairs fluid.

Basically the stream is created by pressure difference (lifting force) which is the function of density which is also a function of temperature, If this force is sufficient enough, vapor supress the liquid wall and escape from it. Else, it may condense and never bubble and mix within the liquid mixture. It is all about the temperature.

2. At perforated plate.

the mass of the stream is less. because the path of the particles are bounded with the drill size. The upstairs fluid have also less temperature than the incoming vapor. Therefore vapor again try to travels from high pressure to low pressure (the cause of the lifting force).

However, since the incoming vapor amount is limited by the drill size, there is less vapour travelling through upstairs. If this amount of vapour does not have sufficient energy to overcome condensation, (or it does not have sufficient lifting force to escape from the fluid). It will either condensate, or do not bubble and mix within the fluid at upstairs.

Therefore, the upcoming vapor has to have more temperature difference. If the temperature difference is higher: the density will decrease, resulting more lifting force; the fluid energy will increase. So it will have enough power and kinematics to overcome the condensation.


the major bubbling difference is this. If the hole size is big, it is expected to have more heating source for fluid flow.


Note that, I basically tried to explain the kinematics. I guess adhesion and cohesion forces are also important on bubble size, Also there are other forces exerted on the fluid partices which are neglected.

Howeever, hey wll not change the conclusion. The vapor has to have more pressure difference, or more temperature, or more power.

So what do we have.

1. at bubble plate. the of amount of vapor dissolve in the upstairs is less than the one at perforated plate.
2.at bubble plate, the bubble escaped from the upstairs fluid has less temperature than the on at the perforated plate. The bathing of the vapor is occuring at less temperatures at bubble plate.


most probably, the aroma of the perforated plate is better because of the first conclusion.

But this is my approach. I need approval. I thought outloud.
Last edited by AZM on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by Corsaire »

AZM wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:44 am
fizzix wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:45 am *Stripboards are those fiberglass/resin hobby-style circuit boards.
Blank on one side, and copper-cladding on the other.


stripboard.jpg
Why, what bothered you? I did not got the point.
The point is they are made from materials not fit for distilling...
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by AZM »

How did you end up with fiberglass is not appropriate for distilling?
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by Corsaire »

I don't use a reflux column yet, so I can't answer your questions there.
I can give you my opinion on the cooling sleeves. They can be made out of anything you like, since they only come in contact with cooling water. However, you have to consider the fact that different materials have different thermal expansion rates. A coupling between say a pvc outer shell and a copper product pipe may not seal properly after several heat cycles.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by LWTCS »

My recommendation is completely predicated upon ease of operation with respect to maintaining the most stable still behavior.

The notion of aroma being better with perf plates is far too subjective. There have been very robust discussions within this community that have argued to the ends of the earth over this topic.

I suspect the difference in aroma (one way or the other) is so minimal that the average taster would have to be trained and well acquainted with all manner of spirits.

I would personally prefer to say that perfs are easier and more affordable manufacture as well as easier to clean and maintain.
Bubble caps on the other hand offer a wider operating range.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by LWTCS »

AZM wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:22 pm How did you end up with fiberglass is not appropriate for distilling?
Depends on weather or not there are any resins contained within I suppose?
Are you able to acquire a material data sheet?
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by AZM »

I give up on strip board substitute. For older used resins (before 1990s), there may be possiblity of ethanol to dissolve the resin. This was realized after ethanol blended gasolines published. Old boat owners, which use mostly fiberglass fuel tanks, complained about damage at their fuel tanks after use of ethanol blended fuel.

According to rough web search, fiberglass companies took precautions to this and manufacture ethanol resistant fiberglass products, however I could find no information to support the usage or the disadvantage of usage.

So it seems to be risky for use with ethanol.. On the otherhand fiberglass tanks are widely used for their asid resistance and they can also be used in potable sanitary systems.

But ethanol seems to be risky.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by LWTCS »

AZM wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:39 pm I give up on strip board substitute. For older used resins (before 1990s), there may be possiblity of ethanol to dissolve the resin. This was realized after ethanol blended gasolines published. Old boat owners, which use mostly fiberglass fuel tanks, complained about damage at their fuel tanks after use of ethanol blended fuel.

According to rough web search, fiberglass companies took precautions to this and manufacture ethanol resistant fiberglass products, however I could find no information to support the usage or the disadvantage of usage.

So it seems to be risky for use with ethanol.. On the otherhand fiberglass tanks are widely used for their asid resistance and they can also be used in potable sanitary systems.

But ethanol seems to be risky.

And this is why the distilling community here more or less promotes the use of the "expensive " materials for still fabrication.
Ss, copper, and sometimes glass when ever ethanol is involved with contact.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by OtisT »

Hi AZM. Earlier in the thread you asked about using some alternate materials for your build in places where the alcohol does not touch, mentioning the exterior jacket of a condenser as an example. You will want to consider the thermal expansion characteristics of various materials if you follow up on this. There are a few threads here that discuss this very subject. The copper or stainless vapor path will expand/contract a different amount and at a different rate than something like a PVC jacket, so getting a good seal that lasts will be a challenge. One of the last things you want while distilling is a cooling leak. Just food for thought.

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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by NZChris »

If you are chasing aroma, you can save yourself all of the expense and work of building a plater by building a pot still head. Don't get to thinking that because platers cost more and look fancy that they make better flavored products, because it isn't true.

What do you want to make?
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by OtisT »

NZChris wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:10 pm If you are chasing aroma, you can save yourself all of the expense and work of building a plater by building a pot still head. Don't get to thinking that because platers cost more and look fancy that they make better flavored products, because it isn't true.

What do you want to make?
I just read his intro thread. He wants to make Vodka, Gin, Whiskey, and Turkish Raki.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussionuis

Post by Yummyrum »

AZM
I fully get where you are coming from with all your questions . I remember thinking the same things . I had ( and still have ) an old copper water heater and I wondered why I couldn’t cut it up and use all the copper sheet in it to make me a plated still .
I agree , it doesn’t have to be thick High pressure water mains pipe that a lot use . It only needs to be strong enough to hold itself up .
I also questioned the use of a square still and figured it would be a piece of cake to fold up a long copper box on a folding machine , make square cross flow plates from the same thin copper and solder the lot together with out windows .
I still think its possible as a poor mans way to go .

Having said that I ended up acquiring a section of 4” pipe ( which was the thin walled DWV type as it turned out ) and the rest is history . How ever , I began with the intention of making it not modular as I agree with you that each connection point is time and money . Back then I had little of either .
But as the project progressed , bit by bit made each bit modular . First the connection to the deflagmator as I figured I may at some stage like to experiment with more plates . Then I thought why not make a 1 plate + 2 plate + 3 plate sections so I can have any number between 1 and 6 . Then I just ended up making 4x single sections .

As far as drilling holes go , its easy . The thought of drilling several hundred holes blows the mind but I doubt it took me more than 2 hours to do 4 plates .

I am pleased you are not going with strip board . One thing that a lot of newbies forget is that there is not just water and ethanol in the still . There are dozens of other chemicals before and after the ethanol fractions arrive that the still has to be exposed to .For this reason the only synthetic material approved is Teflon as it is inert to all chemicals. Other materials maybe used so long as you wrap them in Teflon tape to provide a barrier .

As far as windows go , I also fought this one . I’m the sort of guy that has to question everything and doesn’t just like to accept general thinking .
But I am a inquisitive too. That lead me to add sight glasses . Again I only intended to have one at the top so I could see if the plates were loaded and that it wasn’t flooding and about to blow excessive amounts out the condenser .

So I looked at all the windows everyone else used and figured I would make my own ... just go be different ( and at that stage I hated the look of chunky tri-clamps ).
So I spent hours making them including grinding up window glass to fit as they were unusual size. But once I started making one , it was like a factory and didn’t take that much more time to make one for each section .

At the end of the day I ended up with a modular still . And I’m pleased I did . I am constantly switching things around and trying different combinations . That would have been impossible if I had gone with my original tight arse approach .
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by NZChris »

OtisT wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:25 pmHe wants to make Vodka, Gin, Whiskey, and Turkish Raki.
You don't need a plater to make any of those. Gin base doesn't have to be as neutral as is preached on forums & Youtube, so I've just made myself a large batch of gin base spirit using a pot. Whiskey doesn't need a plater. Raki is traditionally made using pot stilled grape spirit.
If you really want to strip most of the flavor out of something, I saw 2" & 3" copper on my last two visits to a scrappy, both were ideal for a cheap packed column, $3/lb. Marbles instead of plates, no sight glasses, build in a day.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by AZM »

Hi everyone..

When we were discussing the hole size of the perforated plate, a bulp flahed in my head. I was almost messaging, if the drill size is too much, then we could put a hat on and make it bubble.. I would say this as a joke, but it came out to be true.

In theory, the aim of the fraction column is make use of vapor-liquid contact. This is same for packed which is also fractional distillation. Same for perforataed plate and same for bubble plate.

The aim is vapor liquid contact. Not to replicate how the others do it.

Therefore, I created my bubble generator and put a hat on the bubble generator.. I didn't stick on the traditional design. Just put a hat on.

Then after a bit playing with it, (as in procaps), I ended up with three plate bubble caps, without a need of a downcomer..

All we need is pipe sections, plate and soldering.(also a cap may also be used)


Image

Image

Image


Then I constructed a tree from these and put it all in a glass pipe. The tree is hung on the flange.

Image

Note that I forgot to add the downcomer on the simple plate one,
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by AZM »

In these examples, I utilized 6 caps. However I need to size them. I don't know how to size caps yet and need to study a bit about theory.. In fact a cheng student may do it by heart. If someone could lead me a quick tutorial, I will be very appreciated.

I don't want to use the sizing of prebuild ones . I need to know, why it is as it is.

Besides, Instead of sight glasss, utlilizing full glass pipe converts the system as sight seeing place.. Which is also incomparable with respect to cost.

I spent whole my saturday thinking about this and ended up with this type of construction..

Besides, I will also make a perforated plate tree.

As I told before, I had concerns about driling tiny holes. In fact we don't need to drill tiny miny holes. There is a very very easy way to have small holes. Of course with a little trick.

Which is again a two plate design. If two big hole drilled perforated plated put on each other and twisted, then we have small holes. The plate size may be increased to have more and more smaller holes..

I don't know why I stuck on having perfect circular holes at the first hand. The important thing here is to create a liquid vapor contact surface, not the contact surface's perfect shape.


I came up to laminated perforated plate approach after I saw following pots.. :) I was really amazed when I saw those.. This is almost a built perforated column.

Image
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by AZM »

Also there may be another modified perforated plate design:

Which is laminated meshed plates. (Like cartridges). A mesh can be filled and stiffed in between two big hole drilled perforated plates. This way, hole size that the molecules pass through may become even smaller and smaler.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by still_stirrin »

Have you made anything yet? Or, is this all “scribbles on a napkin”? I don’t see any products yet...just hypotheses.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by AZM »

No, net yet. I've just started. I am here to discuss the hardware.

And yes, it's all on paper.. I draw the 3d models above in order to share the idea for others and take comment.

They are drawn with google sketch up. Free and very simple application. Very easy to use.

Construction will be straight forward after the decision of how to make. My search will continue on how to ease the contstruction and why it is made untilll... Well, I don't know.

I just know, i want to produce a fractional column.

Please share your ideas. It is more important than the final product.

The above type of design will make the contruction easy and make it both functional and modular.

Functional in terms of it can both accomodate perforated, bubble plates with just changing the tree inside the glass tube. The rooms may also be packed with glass beads or mesh if desired and continuos fraction may also be achieved.

Modular in terms of you can utilize this column at any design with just satisfying inlet and outlet restrictions.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by Corsaire »

So you're intent on making a glass column?

Just make a class packed column. It can give you the neutral for your gin and raki needs, and run it like a pot for whisky and gin.

Make some end plates to hold the glass, seal it with teflon tape. Make those plates out of ss or copper, whatever you can work with.

I'd go with a ccvm setup. To my current knowledge, it's the simplest and cheapest build type.
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Re: Fractional Distill, Hardware discussion

Post by AZM »

Hi again guys, it has been a week now, and since then I have thought about how to construct my still.

I have still did not start construction, and it seems it will take a while. I'm still on hardware selection process..

First, I want to clarify something about my approach. I will not construct it right away. And the reason of decisions will definitely not be because xxxx did it. yyy has it, zzz works.

As I said, I will try to limit the emprical methods while constructing my fractional still. I have to in some sense. Utilizing the sieve or bubble cap in the design is empiric. But no further. I have to know why I chose some parameters so that I can comment on my output's taste. And I will know that I will not waste my time.

We all have to know that, in general sense, the stills we produce here are very very robust in terms of having alcohol. That is what ever you do, or you change a parameter in the system, you will have alcohol at the end.

In other words, unless you explode the system, or do not have a successful mash, you get alcohol. Changing design type, control technique, or the design's parameters will have hardly effect on what you get. You'll still have alcohol.

e.g. The hole size of the sieve plate, the size of the drill size, column height etc. input power amount will not stop you having alcohol at the end. It will only change the percentage of alcohol.. may be small.. may be big.. The only way to understand the efficiency of your system is to benchmark the results it with just substituting it with a empty column (make it pot still) and with providing all the other conditions same.

And some parameters are also functions of other's. If you are unable to satisfy one parameter, you may compensate it with changing the other.

that is why most people say do it right away. BUT I WON'T :)

Else I would do definitely construct a packed column. Which is the one all fractional designs converge to. It is where the distillation technology now.

You cannot understand a packed distillation's dynamics unless you mathematically model the distillation at infinitely small cross section areas both at lateral and longitudinal axis and sum them up throgh the whole column volume. Then we would have an idea about the performance of it. Otherwise, you do one thing, experiment it. And do the other and experiment it and go with more iterations till you are done.

The aim is what is done for what?? at the things that we can control..
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