Is it really Methanol?

[Bslingshot]

I am no expert and do not claim to be. However, I have read for years that the fore shots/heads should be tossed out because it is Methanol that boils off at a lower temperature than Ethanol (148.5F versus 173.1F at sea level). I know the fore shots contain something nasty because they do not smell very nice. However, most of the articles I have read also say the amount of Methanol in a wash or mash should be considered about 1 percent. 2 percent is a very safe assumption. Now, look at an equilibrium chart for Methanol and you will see, at the 2 percent mark on the X axis (mole of Methanol per mole of total solution which equates to percent) the solution has to achieve 206 degrees F for Methanol vapor to begin coming off. My question - why do we think the fore shots is Methanol since the solution in the still (wash) has not been close to 206 degrees yet, therefore there should be no methanol vapor in the column or collection head. The 148.5F value is for pure Methanol but we are not distilling pure Methanol, we are distilling a solution that has a very low percentage of Methanol, which should not be coming out of solution at the temperature the still is producing fore shots.

I always throw the fore shots away because I do believe it is something not desired but I have never believed it to be Methanol. This dilemma has always puzzled me and I would like to understand it. It would be interesting to run some fore shots through an analyzer and see what is in it. I think it is some type of fusel oils very closely related to Methanol. I have researched this many times for an explanation but every article I read gives a 280,000
page explanation on why Ethanol does not boil out of an Ethanol/Water solution at 173.1 degrees, shows why you need to look at an equilibrium chart, and then advises to toss the fore shots because they are full of Methanol coming off before the Ethanol due to the difference in boiling points. What about the fact that there is 10 to 15 times more Ethanol than Methanol in the solution and the amount of Methanol is less than 2 percent, requiring a much higher temperature than 148.5 degrees to begin coming out of solution. Am I missing something important here?

All opinions welcome but be easy with the spankings!

[Corsaire]

I don't think you're missing something.
Research has shown that methanol concentrations rise during tails, but it's measured in g/hlAA while abv drops during the run.

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=77481

In this thread they had samples of homedistillers' liquor analysed. The quince brandy may interest you. If I read it right, the tails had more methanol than the fores.

It also shows that the amount of methanol is small enough not to worry about, even when no cuts are made.

As to your question: why do we think it's methanol? It's the same reasoning that lets people believe that if they heat their boiler to the boiling point of pure ethanol that only ethanol will come out of the condenser.
Of course that's not the case, but it seems so logical at first

[Saltbush Bill]

Very refreshing to see a newbie who has their eyes open. The myths and beliefs surrounding methanol are many and varied. You will find many long discussions on the subject if you use the forums search function.
Fores are made up of many components.....only a small % of that is methanol.

[dmachura]

https://www.diffordsguide.com/encyclope ... stillation
https://www.whiskyandwisdom.com/bringin ... foreshots/

Read both links, they are quite clear, methanol is in fact more concentrated the fore shots; although still not at dangerous levels, of course methanol continues at lower concentrations throughout the run but not at the level of the fore shots.

[MartinCash]

https://www.diffordsguide.com/encyclope ... stillation
https://www.whiskyandwisdom.com/bringin ... foreshots/

Read both links, they are quite clear, methanol is in fact more concentrated the fore shots; although still not at dangerous levels, of course methanol continues at lower concentrations throughout the run but not at the level of the fore shots.

If you're going to contradict people who have been closely following this for many years, you might want to link to peer-reviewed science rather than two random blog posts.

[OtisT]

Lots of good reading on the subject in the HD links (NOT those two external articles.) From my research I understand that it is always a mix of various molecules at every stage of the run.

Some molecules can be separated/isolated more easily than others. The primary component of foreshots that I can identify by smell is Acetone, and acetone is very easy to isolate and remove with a little patience, even on a pot still. Acetone is widely used as a nail polish remover/thinner, so it should be something easily identifiable to you. A primary component of Heads is Ethyl Acetate, and I love that fruity/chemical smell.

Lots of folks don’t take the time to isolate foreshots and just let the foreshots and heads come out together. If you are not planning to keep a large heads cut, this can be fine. If your making something where you expect to keep a fair amount of heads, like a Brandy, or when you want to make an exceptionally clean neutral, removing the acetone first is more important. With acetone out of the way, I find that identifying slight nuances in the heads easier. I personally separate and remove just the foreshots on most of my spirit runs. I also take foreshots on stripping runs (in addition to the spirit run) when making a neutral or brandy.

I’ll add that If you follow proven recipes and unless you are fermenting twigs and sticks, methanol is a non-issue. You’ll consume more methanol in a glass of apple cider than you will in a good bottle of spirits.

This can all be filed under “It’s just my opinion”.

Otis

[dmachura]

Hey Martincash; just because its not posted in this forum it must not be true...most of the methanol opinions, yes opinions, in these posts are based on
an individual that had a high school science class run their samples through a chromatograph. So lets all believe them, versus master distillers that do it for a living.

[seabass]

Hey Martincash; just because its not posted in this forum it must not be true...most of the methanol opinions, yes opinions, in these posts are based on
an individual that had a high school science class run their samples through a chromatograph. So lets all believe them, versus master distillers that do it for a living.

Have these master distillers done any actual tests with results that can be shown and replicated? If not, it is nothing more than passing along unsubstantiated anecdotes as proven facts.

[Berserk]

https://www.diffordsguide.com/encyclope ... stillation
https://www.whiskyandwisdom.com/bringin ... foreshots/

Read both links, they are quite clear, methanol is in fact more concentrated the fore shots; although still not at dangerous levels, of course methanol continues at lower concentrations throughout the run but not at the level of the fore shots.

You're not wrong, the highest concentration of methanol is in the foreshot, but it's not like you remove a majority of it by tossing the foreshots.

If you measure the concentration as volume of methanol/volume of ethanol, the highest concentration is actually in the tails.

Here's some interesting reading on the subject, made by the Agri-Industrial Research Division of the European Comission. Especially figure 2. and 3. are very interesting.
A study on the possibilities to lower the content of methyl alcohol in eaux-de-vie from fruits

[MartinCash]

Hey Martincash; just because its not posted in this forum it must not be true...most of the methanol opinions, yes opinions, in these posts are based on
an individual that had a high school science class run their samples through a chromatograph. So lets all believe them, versus master distillers that do it for a living.

Yes, I'd rather believe the results of a chromatograph that something a distiller is repeating because that's the way they were taught it was.

You can equally argue that you should not believe a master distiller that does it for a living because they are intrinsically invested in selling their product and therefore biased. Just saying.

I'm a hobby distiller doing it for my own enjoyment and so I'd rather believe a peer-reviewed scientific study, if it's all the same.

[jonnys_spirit]

Best way to quantify this is fir example to do a spirit run for a particular recipe and collect into about 20 or so fractions and send samples of each fraction to a few labs for analysis and then compare results from each lab. Rinse and repeat for a couple different batches of the same recipe and procedure. Tabulate the results for analysis.

Please share your results!

Cheers,
Jonny

[zed255]

There are labs specializing in testing for the food and beverage industries, but the few I have looked at require a call to get pricing. That usually means 'If you have to ask, you can't afford it'. I'd still be curious to find out what a round of test would cost from a certified lab to tell me in no uncertain terms exactly what is in my distillate.

I looked at the articles and I personally put more weight on amateur lab results than anecdotal 'information'.

But even further, the amount of methanol we get from virtually any fermentation at the hobbiest scale simply can't make enough to be dangerous. One would have to actually try and make a harmful product, and then would likely fail. There are good sources of information I have seen, sorry no links handy. Foreshots are liquid evil for reasons other than methanol wether there's more there or not. If you drink beer, mead, wine or any other fermented beverage you drink all the undesirables. If you distill it you gain the benefit of at least removing an appreciable amount of the undesirable compounds.

Methanol has been beaten to death. It is only my opinion, but it is simply not a problem. Governments, media and devious scumbags have made the methanol myth carry on for ages. I'd love to see it laid to rest. My $0.02.

[MartinCash]

Methanol has been beaten to death. It is only my opinion, but it is simply not a problem. Governments, media and devious scumbags have made the methanol myth carry on for ages. I'd love to see it laid to rest. My $0.02.

In the last ten years or so, when I've been paying better attention and actually understood what they're discussing, every single media article about home-made booze and death from methanol turned out to have little to do with home distillation, and nothing to do with methanol.

We even had a couple of cases right in my neck of the woods that were reported as methanol poisoning in the media. After all was said and done (and long after the media had moved on to more exciting stories), it turned out the guy's 'homebrew' was a concoction of industrial chemicals including ethylene glycol. No distillation involved.

I never saw any retractions in the media about the home-distillation-is-deadly beatups they'd published the preceding week. And this is what we fight against. If I didn't shudder every time I hear it said, I'd call if 'fake news'!

IMO the methanol story is long established to be a non-event with the possible exception of high-pectin washes. Foreshots are evil and I get rid of them because I recycle heads. If I tossed my heads I'd not differentiate the foreshots. Acetone and acetaldehyde aren't in my recipe for a good product.

[Kareltje]

@Bslingshot: Very reassuring to read someone who has at least thought thoroughly about the matter.
Your question is well funded, your thinking is sound and your conclusion is correct.

Some good answers already have been given.

[Saltbush Bill]

I never saw any retractions in the media about the home-distillation-is-deadly beatups they'd published the preceding week. And this is what we fight against.

That is the problem, all cases that I have ever seen, at least in this country, proved in the end not to be distilling related.
You will never see retractions or apologies because they don't sell newspapers the way that headlines like "Methanol/Moonshine Kills" will.
Headlines make money, retractions don't, that simple.

Methanol has been beaten to death. It is only my opinion, but it is simply not a problem. Governments, media and devious scumbags have made the methanol myth carry on for ages.

[jonnys_spirit]

My son works in a test lab where they use GC to quantify various tests for medical marijuana. He reckons about average $50/sample to quantify certain compounds.

Cheers!
Jonny

[stillanoob]

Berserk, good reading, thanks.

[Dillonps]

Noob here. So what I’m gathering is it’s not good but not bad as in must throw out. If you redistill the batch would that help? So correct me I’m doing my best to learn before I buy my first. Run it all through add water and rerun. Is that a good idea? Also do you get that methanol in wash and mash?

[TwoSheds]

Hey Dillonps,

Good on you doing some extra homework before buying. There's a lot of aspects to this hobby to learn.

But when you smell heads coming off a still you'll understand, you wouldn't want to drink that stuff. It's not just methanol, though there will be some of that in there. It's a mix of chemicals that don't smell or taste good and some of them (like acetone) aren't good for you either.

The story that methanol is concentrated in heads and can make you blind has been disproven. Methanol comes out throughout the run, but never in concerning levels. So there will always be some methanol around, but there are bigger things to worry about.

Most flavored liquors are, or at least can be made by what you describe. Run once (stripping run), water down to 40% ABV or less, run again slower (spirit run.) It helps make a good, clean product and gives you a lot of control over your blend, assuming you collect in many small jars.

Hope that helps. Lost of reading to be had here!

TwoSheds

[still_stirrin]

… Also do you get that methanol in wash and mash?

Methanol is a fermentation byproduct. However, not all ferments are the same.

Fruit ferments (called “must”) are much more likely to produce methanol because of the compounds naturally occurring in the must.

Molasses ferments (for a rum) have many other compounds which can produce other “heavy alcohols” like those that will give you a headache, ie - propanol.

Cereal grain ferments can produce some other alcohols besides ethanol, but they also can produce other solvents such as the ketones, which includes acetone.

Regardless, how you ferment affects what and the amounts of these congeners that may be in your product. Pay attention to the “rules of brewing and fermentation” and you’ll be ahead of the crowd.

Distillation will help separate the volatiles from the lessor volatile constituents. However, methanol and ethanol are very near to each other, so they often form a azeotropic bond and as a result, produce simultaneously throughout the run.

If you collect the product into 15 or more jars, you’ll be able to separate “the good jars” from the “bad ones”. And practice (experience) will help you with this process. It may be “rough” at first. But you’ll get better as time passes. Oh, and this part of the hobby can’t be learned by reading the forum. You’ll just have to “jump in”.
ss

[Dillonps]

Thank you stirring! Rules of brewing is the sticky on this site right? I have been watching YouTube guy still it and he does that same thing with the jars. So if you both agree! What can you use the “bad” jars for?

[TwoSheds]

Thank you stirring! Rules of brewing is the sticky on this site right? I have been watching YouTube guy still it and he does that same thing with the jars. So if you both agree! What can you use the “bad” jars for?

StillIt is one of the best home distilling channels, for sure. Like any content, he doesn't cover every little detail every time, so keep watching and reading.

I bet there's a thread on what to do with foreshots and feints, but here's a couple uses that come up a lot. Whatever you do, make sure you label it! What it is and the strength. Will save you some surprises.

Foreshots are usually so small and I'm never sure what's in them (smell tells me more than ethanol) so I usually just dump them on a weed in the driveway or throw them somewhere safe outside to evaporate.

Feints, I think of as any of the jars you don't put into your blend, so heads and tails that you don't use. There may be other definitions. Here are some uses I know of:

Add them to your next spirit run of the same or similar recipe. They will increase your yield, but also your heads and tails cuts for next time so fraction out and use all your senses to blend.

Clean/sanitize equipment (if high enough proof)

Use in place of 'denatured' alcohol for woodworking, especially with shellac.

Weed killer

Ant killer

Fire starter

[still_stirrin]

… Rules of brewing is the sticky on this site right? …

Well, to a brewer, the “rules” would be:
1) Don’t try to make a ferment with a high specific gravity if your goal is a drinkin’ liquor (or beer). Keep the OG between 1.055 and 1.065 for best results.
2) Aerate the must/wash/wort properly before pitching the yeast. Yeast needs oxygen at the start to reproduce (called, “budding”) to generate enough cells to ferment healthily.
3) If using dry yeast, rehydrate the yeast in warm water; human body temperature is best for this. Just put a cup or 2 of water into a jar and add the packet of dry yeast. No need for any sugars or wort in the hydration jar. Dry yeast are brittle and if pitched directly into a strong wort, the osmotic pressure on the cell walls can break/crush the cell. Rehydration allows the walls to moisten and become flexible while filling the cell with water. When the rehydrated yeast is pitched into the fermenter, the osmotic pressure will displace the water with the wort and the yeast will start its lifecycle.
4) Keep the fermenter at the appropriate temperature for the yeast’s viability. Again, most strains of yeast will do quite well at body temperatures. However, cooling the fermenter slightly will slow aggressive ferments which will help control production of congeners.
5) Let the ferment work to completion. After (visible) activity has ceased, the yeast will begin to flocculate when the cells “clump together”. As it does this, the ferment will stratify and you’ll see the beer clear. It may take a week or 2 after fermentation finishes for this to occur. But it will clear naturally.

There, I hope that helps. It is general brewer’s information and not necessarily something you’ll learn by Youtube or the Discovery channel series. However, joining a homebrew club would be a great place to gain experience and learn a lot of skills.
ss