where does yeast come from?

Little or nothing to do with distillation.

where does yeast come from?

oh, that's easy: GOD
2
18%
no, life isn't made in 6 days, it's all evolution
9
82%
 
Total votes : 11

Postby FireH20 » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:48 am

The Chemist wrote:Well, please let any of them you know that we haven't lost our minds over here!!

Yeah, I hope nobody thinks scientists here are trying to do anything but science, like scientists everywhere.

But now I'm going to really get myself in trouble, and it's all stoker's fault!

I used to ask "Why can't evolution be seen as a tool of creation?" Then everyone would be happy. But when I really read about the theory of natural selection, I realized that this is impossible if you understand either the theory, or faith. They are diametrically opposed at their very foundation.

Darwin's theory says that all of life, throughout the history of the earth, from amino acid molecules in the primordial soup until now, has taken its form as a result of random genetic mutations finding themselves in random environmental conditions, and giving traits that make the individual they find themselves in either more or less able to thrive, and therefore to reproduce, in that particular environment - thus replicating the mutation and passing it along to suceeding generations. Things could have gone in an infinite number of other directions, or none at all. The forms we see now aren't even necessarily the best adaptation to their environments - to a large extent they're just the ones who also got lucky. (Didn't get hit by lightning, for instance.)

The minute you introduce the idea that any of this was guided by any supernatural force, either in the mutations that get introduced, the environmental conditions, or anything else, in order to reach a desired endpoint (e.g. us), it is no longer the theory of natural selection.

As soon as you talk about any intention or design, you have removed the element of randomness which, to my understanding, is absolutely fundamental to natural selection. And what makes fundamentalists so hopping mad.

That's why I think that any attempt to reconcile creationism and evolution is doomed from the start - you'll end up with something that still doesn't make the faithful happy, but isn't really science either.

On that other hand, I've heard that the definition of a good compromise is when both sides go away unhappy...
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Postby FireH20 » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:54 am

stoker wrote:yes, they tried, but my opinion is that they failed.

The point they're trying to make is that their religion (The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) should be taught in schools as well, because they believe, no matter how silly their made-up religion is, it's no sillier than any other religion. Get it?
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Postby Longhairedcountryboy » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:28 pm

FireH2O, that link is awesome.
I'm still laughing about the declining number of pirates being the cause of global warming graph. It's so true, man. :lol:
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Postby FireH20 » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:35 pm

Longhairedcountryboy wrote:FireH2O, that link is awesome.
I'm still laughing about the declining number of pirates being the cause of global warming graph. It's so true, man. :lol:

Yeah, but now that that's settled, we still have to find an explanation for the global warming on Mars (seriously).

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36049
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Postby Longhairedcountryboy » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:51 pm

Martian Pirates?
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Postby possum » Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:11 pm

Or the lack of martian pirates.....


He has touched my heart with his noodley appendage.


Abscence of proof is not proof of abscence.
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Postby level Joe » Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:00 pm

Stoker this topic is a lot like politics in my opinion but I'll bite.

My 2 cents...

logical, consistent, systematic

Science and scientists (occupationally) revolve around testing, hypothesis and theory (best guess and what can be repeated with logical, consistent, systematic results).

Once you have proof of something... its over, it’s done, no need to study any further. Right? I'm sure scientific law hasn’t changed since the start of human awareness has it?

What I'm trying to say is don’t put too mush faith in what you can see, touch or feel. It will let you down or fool you every time. Nothing is proved absolute, nothing earthly or the universe for that matter is forever. Don't put too much faith in yourself or your limited time on this earth.

"The scientific method is limited to those phenomena which can be observed or measured. For example, what existed prior to the Big Bang and the known universe is outside of the realm of science to investigate.

Science is good at explaining "how things work" but not necessarily for explaining "why do such things exist" or "for what purpose." (Science does not really explain why the Universe exists.)" http://servercc.oakton.edu/~billtong/eas100/scientificmethod.htm
"before winning over the majority of scientists" must be nice to one of them, so smart and to have that kind of ??power?? to decide fact for the rest of us.

Religion is like science... fact is a matter of opinion.
Salus populi suprema est lex. [L.] The safety of the people is the highest law.
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Postby FireH20 » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:19 pm

Hi level Joe -

You're ascribing to science some things that aren't there.

"Once you have proof of something... its over, it’s done, no need to study any further. Right?" Wrong. No scientist thinks this way. There's always new information and insight to be gained. Newton came up with his laws of motion hundreds of years ago. Physicists are still examining their implications.

You're right when you say "don’t put too much faith in what you can see, touch or feel". Humans are flawed creatures, full of bias and faulty perception. But I do put my faith in what others have seen, touched and felt, and then said 'here, you try it.' And sure enough, when I try it (and when anyone else anywhere tries it), we get the same result. That's the scientific method.

Ethanol comes out at around 78 Celsius. Everyone who runs a still finds this to be true. If I have the opinion that it comes out at 90, does that call into doubt every one else's observation? Or just make me wrong? There are such things as facts, that aren't just a matter of opinion. Otherwise we could never watch TV, use a computer, drive a car, or do a million other things that we take for granted.

"The scientific method is limited to those phenomena which can be observed or measured." Absolutely true. No scientist would ever claim otherwise. But "what existed prior to the Big Bang and the known universe is outside of the realm of science to investigate", I disagree with. Cosmologists investigate this question every day. Nobody's close to an answer, of course. It may turn out that science never discovers this. It may turn out that our minds are too limited to understand it. But what happens outside the earth's atmosphere was once outside the realm of science to investigate, too.

We can also turn the question back at the asker: How and when did God come into existence? What was there before he existed?

Creationists often criticize science for claiming certainty, which it never does. True, scientists are people, and can fall into the traps of ego, turf wars, or politics. (Even Einstein, late in life, insisted on questionable things because he couldn't let himself be wrong). Since science is a human endeavor, it will never be done perfectly, or achieve the ideal of objectivity that it sets for itself.

But for this reason, part of the scientific method is to require many scientists to review, replicate, and criticize the findings of others. Eventually the facts win out (we hope). The system of peer review, and even the entrenched resistance of stubborn old farts, acts as a brake against the acceptance of any wacky idea that comes down the pike. A new theory has to be really, really, really proven before it's accepted. This is a good thing. Plate tectonics is a good example of this. It was denounced as an absurd fringe theory with no evidence to back it up, when first proposed.

But any scientist worth his salt will freely tell you what is known, what is not known, which facts fit the theory and which ones contradict it, how much confidence (or lack thereof) there is in the current theory, and even what is outside of science's realm to answer.

Questions of the "why" of anything fall into the last category. Ask any scientist. Science is a tool. You don't use a hammer to drive a screw (OK, sometimes I do but only if I'm really frustrated). Criticizing science because it can't answer "why" is like saying my dishwasher is completely useless because it can't play MP3's.

And expecting science to answer "why" is assuming facts not in evidence, as they say in court - that is, that there is a "why" to begin with. Regardless, scientists know that this is a question they can't answer, so they don't spend their time (and our tax dollars!) trying to.

On the other hand, the most fascinating thing I ever heard a physicist say was "Why is there anything? Why does the universe exist in the first place? Why is there not just nothing everywhere?" Of course, someone of faith will have an answer for this. But if you want true awe and mystery, listen to a cosmologist talk about the universe sometime. In general, I think that if those who level these kinds of charges at science ever actually listened to an hour-long interview with a scientist, they'd be very surprised.

Lastly, I'm always struck by one thing in religious criticism of science: If you ask a religious person to prove the existence of God, you'll be told that it's a matter of faith; he is in your heart; you can't ask for proof; maybe even that it's blasphemy just to ask the question. But when the same person turns to the topic of science, they start saying "Where's your proof? There's no evidence! That's not rational! That argument is illogical!"

Suddenly they're scientists! What's up with that? :)
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Postby Tater » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:33 pm

ok guys this post is straying . Lets let it die.
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Postby FireH20 » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:55 pm

tater wrote:ok guys this post is straying . Lets let it die.

Well - it did get started to provoke an evolution vs. creationism debate. Which goes hand in hand with a discussion of faith vs. science. But if you're afraid things will get ugly and affect more on-topic discussion, I share your concern.
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Postby Tater » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:11 pm

Yep found its best to leave politics and religion off fourm
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Postby FireH20 » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:41 pm

aw, stoker's gonna be so disappointed...
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