this might get shut down
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Re: this might get shut down
That land is not worth shit for raising cattle. Those calves will presumably end up on feed lots to be of any economic value. The cattle industry in "the west" does not make any sense, at all. Ranchers have been benefitting from very low grazing levies for a long long time, to the detriment of the environment (which belongs to us all). The south east produces many many hundreds of percent more beef per acre. It is natural and correct that such a system should be phased out. Isn't it?
Re: this might get shut down
They may well end up arresting the rancher for theft of services... If he was supposed to pay for use of public land to help his profit margin then he should be keeping current... The rancher has stolen from us all... If he has too many head to feed off his own land that isn't an excuse to use federal land, especially without paying for the use... I can't go and do whatever the hell I want on federal or state land so why is it alright for some rancher...??? That's my take on it...
Re: this might get shut down
You can tell when the cattle is there. I work this land. It's shit to start with and worse after grazing. He is infringing upon my freedom by using this public land for his personal gain. Now if the land was taken under eminent domain prior to the constitution, then this guy has a leg to stand on. If after the constitution, compensation had to be given to the land owner, whether they wanted to give it to the Feds or not. If these ranchers have been paid for the land in the past, but still use it now, then they don't legally own it and have no right to use it the way they are. If this feller is allowed to continue then it is a slippery slope of what is allowable on public lands. There would be no trees left and no yellowstone national park, etc.
I suggest to shut this topic down so we can all get back to focusing on abv, copper, and grains and not cattle and land appropriation and eminent domain.
I suggest to shut this topic down so we can all get back to focusing on abv, copper, and grains and not cattle and land appropriation and eminent domain.
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Re: this might get shut down
Like rockchucker has been saying , this is all bullshit and Federal land grabs for the benefit of private industry and financial interests . Rad , you are good at shining ; but , you don't know dick about cattle ranching .
>Where I live in the East we figure that a cow/calf pair require an acre and a half per day during the grazing season plus being fed hay throughout the winter season . That means that you spend most of your summer making hay to feed to those cows during the winter season EVERY FUGGIN DAY !
Ranching in the western lands requires 150-250 acres per day per cow/calf unit .(Coyote or any other western rancher corerct me if I am wrong) This guy is running 900 cattle on 600,000 + acres of uninhabitable desert land . Shut him and others down to preserve desert habitat and where you gonna put them cows back here in the East ? You want them 900 cows shittin alongside the border of your property line with the wind blowing toward your house ?
Or is a better alternative to just kill all them damn cows out there and then fork over $20 per pound for hamburger if you can find it that cheap ? Should that happen I could make a much higher profit of my herd .
>Sorry to rant . It's just that folks ought not to cuss a farmer with their mouth full
>Where I live in the East we figure that a cow/calf pair require an acre and a half per day during the grazing season plus being fed hay throughout the winter season . That means that you spend most of your summer making hay to feed to those cows during the winter season EVERY FUGGIN DAY !
Ranching in the western lands requires 150-250 acres per day per cow/calf unit .(Coyote or any other western rancher corerct me if I am wrong) This guy is running 900 cattle on 600,000 + acres of uninhabitable desert land . Shut him and others down to preserve desert habitat and where you gonna put them cows back here in the East ? You want them 900 cows shittin alongside the border of your property line with the wind blowing toward your house ?
Or is a better alternative to just kill all them damn cows out there and then fork over $20 per pound for hamburger if you can find it that cheap ? Should that happen I could make a much higher profit of my herd .
>Sorry to rant . It's just that folks ought not to cuss a farmer with their mouth full
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
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Re: this might get shut down
Suggestion duly noted and fully ignoredJBAR9 wrote:You can tell when the cattle is there. I work this land. It's shit to start with and worse after grazing. He is infringing upon my freedom by using this public land for his personal gain. Now if the land was taken under eminent domain prior to the constitution, then this guy has a leg to stand on. If after the constitution, compensation had to be given to the land owner, whether they wanted to give it to the Feds or not. If these ranchers have been paid for the land in the past, but still use it now, then they don't legally own it and have no right to use it the way they are. If this feller is allowed to continue then it is a slippery slope of what is allowable on public lands. There would be no trees left and no yellowstone national park, etc.
I suggest to shut this topic down so we can all get back to focusing on abv, copper, and grains and not cattle and land appropriation and eminent domain.
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
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Re: this might get shut down
Opposite sides of the fence is all I am seeing on this thread. Both sides of this argument make valid points.
I've seen the damage firsthand out here in the west, so yeah you know they are there.
Feel sad as well to see the erosion of an American west tradition. That's the nostalgic side of me.
This subject hit's a nerve with all of us in some fashion or another.
For now I am curious enough to let the thread continue. Waiting for some facts.
Until we get those facts please agree to disagree gents.
I've seen the damage firsthand out here in the west, so yeah you know they are there.
Feel sad as well to see the erosion of an American west tradition. That's the nostalgic side of me.
This subject hit's a nerve with all of us in some fashion or another.
For now I am curious enough to let the thread continue. Waiting for some facts.
Until we get those facts please agree to disagree gents.
Re: this might get shut down
I'm no city slicker... I grew up on a farm and worked my uncles farm... I live in the heart of farm country right now and deal with idiot farmers spreading cow shit on the roads rather than making sure the spreader is completely empty and shut down before leaving the field... Slather-assed dirt farmers too busy trying to make a living to do things right...!!! I also know enough about the law... As with any business, if your business model is flawed, get the heck out...!!! Pissing and moaning about not being able to use someone elses land without paying is pure BS... We used to lease our land to local farmers after we shut down do to economics... If they didn't pay, they couldn't use it... As far as I'm concerned, keep private cows off public land... I suppose someone would piss and moan of I culled one of their private cows off public land and filled my freezer... Go figure...!!! There's more than just a farmers point of view in this country, by the way... Starting to sound like the same rhetoric that we get from big business when they try to justify shady practices to line their pockets...Truckinbutch wrote:Like rockchucker has been saying , this is all bullshit and Federal land grabs for the benefit of private industry and financial interests . Rad , you are good at shining ; but , you don't know dick about cattle ranching .
>Where I live in the East we figure that a cow/calf pair require an acre and a half per day during the grazing season plus being fed hay throughout the winter season . That means that you spend most of your summer making hay to feed to those cows during the winter season EVERY FUGGIN DAY !
Ranching in the western lands requires 150-250 acres per day per cow/calf unit .(Coyote or any other western rancher corerct me if I am wrong) This guy is running 900 cattle on 600,000 + acres of uninhabitable desert land . Shut him and others down to preserve desert habitat and where you gonna put them cows back here in the East ? You want them 900 cows shittin alongside the border of your property line with the wind blowing toward your house ?
Or is a better alternative to just kill all them damn cows out there and then fork over $20 per pound for hamburger if you can find it that cheap ? Should that happen I could make a much higher profit of my herd .
>Sorry to rant . It's just that folks ought not to cuss a farmer with their mouth full
Re: this might get shut down
Yep lets let it go a bit longer.Few have walked close to making it political.Way I've read it the rancher is mad cause government wants land he use to use to protect some turtles .Hes saying that he should be able to use the land cause his family has for years.Gov says he owes land rent he not paid.He claims he shouldn't owe it.Bet the Indians out there are laughing there asses off.
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper
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Re: this might get shut down
Tater , if they were interested in protecting them turtles why did they kill 1400 of them that they had in their custody ? Harry Reid and the Chinese could tell you what the real story is . I agree that this thread should be allowed to exist as long as it remains a friendly dispute and no guns and knives come out .
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Re: this might get shut down
This is public land, My public land i dont care if his cows graze my public land. Put it to a vote in my county if anybody cares if his cows can graze on our land and i guaranty that 99% of us would say use it and if you can find an animal that eats salt cedar raise them to. As for destruction of land it is minimal just as much as the over populated wild horse or bison would create. How would you like it if i came in to your house and said this is mine now and you need to start paying me money to utilize your house?
Life is a journey you take alone. Make sure you do what you what makes you happy
Re: this might get shut down
One more thing I didnt know you lived in southen nv rad, if you want there is millions of acers of sage brush around for you to have. I dont know what kind of ferment you would use it with.
Last edited by pfshine on Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: this might get shut down
here in the west free range is or was the law. my great grandfather and grandfather free ranged livestock in montana
and idaho from the late 1880's , in my time free range ment the same thing with some changes, interstate, and high volume roads were fenced, secondary roads were posted free range, and if you hit a cow or sheep with your car it was your fault and you paid for the animal. if you wanted your land free of others stock you put up fence to keep others stock out and yours in. you put your animals out on free range branded,
after roundup you discover if you made money or not.
the land used for free range was national forest, BLM, and state lands.
changing the rules is an ever present game.
this mornings paper had a small article saying there appears to be a stand down.
hopefully it's not a temporary lul waiting for the cover of darkness and or apathy.
ruby ridge was my back yard and i hold little hope for the bundy's prevailing on
anything but a temporary basis, nonviolent hopefully, but a status quo result no way.
walking a hundred miles in another mans boots would qualify
and idaho from the late 1880's , in my time free range ment the same thing with some changes, interstate, and high volume roads were fenced, secondary roads were posted free range, and if you hit a cow or sheep with your car it was your fault and you paid for the animal. if you wanted your land free of others stock you put up fence to keep others stock out and yours in. you put your animals out on free range branded,
after roundup you discover if you made money or not.
the land used for free range was national forest, BLM, and state lands.
changing the rules is an ever present game.
this mornings paper had a small article saying there appears to be a stand down.
hopefully it's not a temporary lul waiting for the cover of darkness and or apathy.
ruby ridge was my back yard and i hold little hope for the bundy's prevailing on
anything but a temporary basis, nonviolent hopefully, but a status quo result no way.
walking a hundred miles in another mans boots would qualify
be water my friend
Re: this might get shut down
Good point about the Indians lol. My family were farmers, my uncle still owns one of the biggest dairy farms in aus, two of my best mates are farmers, but in my eyes farmers are just whingers, if they cant make lots of money they cry poor and expect the government to bail them out, my missus runs her own business and if its not doing well, bad luck, she doesn't get any help. Primary producers think there gods because they feed people. One day there wont be enough land to farm.
Here's to alcohol, the cause of, and solution to, all life's problems.
"Homer J Simpson"
"Homer J Simpson"
Re: this might get shut down
Sounds familiar, googe.
Re: this might get shut down
God bless the American farmer, he needs our support, and backing. Buy US grown meats, veggies and fruits, and grains, due to hardships they face they need our citizen support. I know not everyone's in the US, support your domestic agriculture no matter where you live local agriculture is the keystone to life, and farmers depend on us as we depend on them hit a farmers market or roadside stand, honey, eggs, veggies, meat, fruit, know the face that grows your health, live happy and healthy.
Everything's better home made, everything!!
15.5 keg 7.75keg 2"pot still, Gold CM
Never look down on a man unless it's to help him up.
15.5 keg 7.75keg 2"pot still, Gold CM
Never look down on a man unless it's to help him up.
Re: this might get shut down
Read the comments after this LAT article, sounds like a brawl if they could find each other.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow ... z2ynC4srFd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I was living in Idaho during the 70's while our government was running small farms out of business to the benefit of corporate farms. Don't think they cared about the Constitution even back then. Don't know enough to comment on this, but governments over the course of history have mostly cared about themselves, power and money.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow ... z2ynC4srFd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I was living in Idaho during the 70's while our government was running small farms out of business to the benefit of corporate farms. Don't think they cared about the Constitution even back then. Don't know enough to comment on this, but governments over the course of history have mostly cared about themselves, power and money.
heartcut
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.
W. H. Auden
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.
W. H. Auden
Re: this might get shut down
Wow the lat is a bunch of junk and full of lies. I was there the blm were the aggressors not the people there supporting the ranch. Video doesnt lie when they sicked there dogs on us or when they were shooting people with tasers or when pummeling women. No mention of them coming in with snipers or a penned in first amendment area.
Life is a journey you take alone. Make sure you do what you what makes you happy
Re: this might get shut down
Government is usually a good example of "None of us is a dumb as all of us".
heartcut
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.
W. H. Auden
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.
W. H. Auden
Re: this might get shut down
TruckinButch your numbers are a bit skewed.
One AUM (Animal Unit Month) generally is one cow and her calf/calves.
In most areas I am familiar with north of the 45th, 1 AUM requires about
1 - 2.5 acres per month - not per day. Of course that number is very
dependent on the placement of water - either by man or God.
The west was opened by those men and women brave or crazy enough
to think they could carve a home or an empire out of the wilderness.
There was no state or government lands in those days. Every acre of
federal, BLM or state lands have, at one time, been taken from someone
else, starting with the native Indians. For sure & for certain the government
DID NOT wander around the west and say " Hey lookie here a whole
chunk of Nevada, Idaho, Oregon, Arizona, Wyoming, with no one claiming it,
Let's make it a national forest!"
Didn't happen.
I have seen it a couple of hundred times, folks from the city (east or west),
who say "This land is for all of us" Most of them want to see Yellowstone park.
I ain't met one city folk yet who wants to live, work & survive, a hundred miles
from the nearest paved road. Or be willing to use their own funds, time &
equipment to repair a dirt 2 track that is the only access to the cow pasture. All
the while knowing that summer or hunting season is coming and with it the city
folks who will tear hell out of the 2 track with the monster tired 4X4's and laugh
while they toss beer cans out the window, leave the campfire burning, and shoot
hell out of the windmill - water tank - old Chevy truck we leave there just for
fence work just for the heck of it and then bitch that the rancher don't pay fair.
Farmers and rancher have to be good stewards of the land, its how we pay the rent. Of course
there are a few dumb asses who give everyone a black eye, but think about it no one rapes
the golden goose that feeds their family year after year, don't make sense.
Coyote
One AUM (Animal Unit Month) generally is one cow and her calf/calves.
In most areas I am familiar with north of the 45th, 1 AUM requires about
1 - 2.5 acres per month - not per day. Of course that number is very
dependent on the placement of water - either by man or God.
The west was opened by those men and women brave or crazy enough
to think they could carve a home or an empire out of the wilderness.
There was no state or government lands in those days. Every acre of
federal, BLM or state lands have, at one time, been taken from someone
else, starting with the native Indians. For sure & for certain the government
DID NOT wander around the west and say " Hey lookie here a whole
chunk of Nevada, Idaho, Oregon, Arizona, Wyoming, with no one claiming it,
Let's make it a national forest!"
Didn't happen.
I have seen it a couple of hundred times, folks from the city (east or west),
who say "This land is for all of us" Most of them want to see Yellowstone park.
I ain't met one city folk yet who wants to live, work & survive, a hundred miles
from the nearest paved road. Or be willing to use their own funds, time &
equipment to repair a dirt 2 track that is the only access to the cow pasture. All
the while knowing that summer or hunting season is coming and with it the city
folks who will tear hell out of the 2 track with the monster tired 4X4's and laugh
while they toss beer cans out the window, leave the campfire burning, and shoot
hell out of the windmill - water tank - old Chevy truck we leave there just for
fence work just for the heck of it and then bitch that the rancher don't pay fair.
Farmers and rancher have to be good stewards of the land, its how we pay the rent. Of course
there are a few dumb asses who give everyone a black eye, but think about it no one rapes
the golden goose that feeds their family year after year, don't make sense.
Coyote
"Slow Down , You'll get a more harmonious outcome"
"Speed & Greed have no place in this hobby"
"Speed & Greed have no place in this hobby"
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Re: this might get shut down
Coyote , what can I say on the grazing numbers Post drunk , edit sober ?
> I applaud your post . We got to deal with the same issues here . Plain sucks what kind of dicks some people coming out of the city can be toward us stewards of the land .
> I applaud your post . We got to deal with the same issues here . Plain sucks what kind of dicks some people coming out of the city can be toward us stewards of the land .
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Re: this might get shut down
No worries pard
Coyote
Coyote
"Slow Down , You'll get a more harmonious outcome"
"Speed & Greed have no place in this hobby"
"Speed & Greed have no place in this hobby"
Re: this might get shut down
In all honesty, it's not just city folk who have no respect for other peoples property... I know a lot of local farmer rednecks who tear the hell out of everyone elses property but would throw a hissy fit if it happened to theirs... All I have to do is look out my window at my own property... Shooting animals and leaving them to rot, dumping carcasses, dumping demolition materials they collected disposal fees for, hunting without permission, tearing up everything with 4x4's, and the list goes on... All done by country folk, not city folk... At least one is a young neighbor that I haven't caught in the act - yet...
Re: this might get shut down
Your right Rad, it is just the general decline of respect
shown for your fellow earth dwellers.
Most of the shit I see happening today - Why Ma would have
beat our asses just to warm them up for Dad to have a go at when
he got home. I would have been scared to death to have dumped
trash on someone else's ground and worse yet on our own.
The proliferation of stupid seems to show no weakening.
They breed and they vote.
Coyote
shown for your fellow earth dwellers.
Most of the shit I see happening today - Why Ma would have
beat our asses just to warm them up for Dad to have a go at when
he got home. I would have been scared to death to have dumped
trash on someone else's ground and worse yet on our own.
The proliferation of stupid seems to show no weakening.
They breed and they vote.
Coyote
"Slow Down , You'll get a more harmonious outcome"
"Speed & Greed have no place in this hobby"
"Speed & Greed have no place in this hobby"
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Re: this might get shut down
i read a few other forums postings after you first posted this. little of what was posted was informed or even educated, mostly flame, prejudice, andpfshine wrote:Wow the lat is a bunch of junk and full of lies. I was there the blm were the aggressors not the people there supporting the ranch. Video doesnt lie when they sicked there dogs on us or when they were shooting people with tasers or when pummeling women. No mention of them coming in with snipers or a penned in first amendment area.
trolling.
one thing did stand out (from tater's link)
what the hell is BLM doing with snipers????
rest assured alphabet soup is not done with this man. C.O.B.
be water my friend
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Re: this might get shut down
Some links here.
The court order: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/prog ... -26-13.pdf
The federal judge who issued the court order: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_D._George
Executive Order 12548 -- Grazing Fees: http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/s ... 21486b.htm
The Constitution of the State of Nevada article 1 section 2: http://www.leg.state.nv.us/const/nvconst.html
The court order: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/prog ... -26-13.pdf
The federal judge who issued the court order: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_D._George
Executive Order 12548 -- Grazing Fees: http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/s ... 21486b.htm
The Constitution of the State of Nevada article 1 section 2: http://www.leg.state.nv.us/const/nvconst.html
Re: this might get shut down
This guy has 14 kids. I'm wondering how a farmer living on such poor, tired land can afford that many kids. He appears to fit the profile of a particular demographic of benefit sponger quite numerous in certain parts of the rural western US.
Give me the turtles any day.
Just sayin'!
Give me the turtles any day.
Just sayin'!
Re: this might get shut down
We do rotational grazing. That means we move the cows from a small confined area to another every day or two. They are never allowed to eat all the grass in one paddock before move to the next. They don't have time to tear the paddock up, but they do fertilize it well. So every thirty days or so, they get back to the first spot. The land has thirty days to recoupe.
This makes max use of the land, reduces disease, reduces parasites and max density of the cows. And we see our cows every day. No sickness goes unnoticed. Max effort for maximum dollar (better beef).
When these ranchers (in this story) graze the cows on public land, they put a cow out there, it only moves as far as it has to to get the next mouthful of grass or drink of water. They do over graze and strip the land. The rancher goes looking for it a year later when it is ready to be moved to a feed lot, fattened and sell to butcher. It's minimum effort, for average dollar paid for mediocre beef.
But don't minimize the dollars. If this family had 900 cows out there, at harvest that's way north of a $1,000,000.00usd. They don't qualify for food stamps. So, if he owes fees, he should be ready and willing to pay them.
I pay my mortgage every month, my taxes every year. He should too...
This makes max use of the land, reduces disease, reduces parasites and max density of the cows. And we see our cows every day. No sickness goes unnoticed. Max effort for maximum dollar (better beef).
When these ranchers (in this story) graze the cows on public land, they put a cow out there, it only moves as far as it has to to get the next mouthful of grass or drink of water. They do over graze and strip the land. The rancher goes looking for it a year later when it is ready to be moved to a feed lot, fattened and sell to butcher. It's minimum effort, for average dollar paid for mediocre beef.
But don't minimize the dollars. If this family had 900 cows out there, at harvest that's way north of a $1,000,000.00usd. They don't qualify for food stamps. So, if he owes fees, he should be ready and willing to pay them.
I pay my mortgage every month, my taxes every year. He should too...
CCVM http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
DSP-AR-20005
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
DSP-AR-20005
Re: this might get shut down
He should have to pay to use public nv land. Those fees should go to clark county or the state not the fed or blm foe which they do nothing. That being said they should have put a lein on his property or somthing of the like not come in with hundreds of armed to the teeth agents snipers helicopters and heavy equipment. Then steal his property put up a first amendment area tazer and assault people and throw pregnant woman to the ground. The whole thing was unconstitutional and an obnoxious show of force. As for the tortoises the blm is killing them by the hundreds.
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Re: this might get shut down
Interesting with our borders so porous the battle the government chooses to fight!??
Re: this might get shut down
It's all diversion.
CCVM http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
DSP-AR-20005
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
DSP-AR-20005