Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
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- goinbroke2
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Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
Maybe I got spoiled living in Germany, but when I ask for a beer, I want a BEER! Not a blue berry infused beer or a prickleberry beer with artichoke heart extract, blah, blah, blah...
I noticed the same at micro distilleries. They all have some obscure variation on liquor, whisky made with unicorn farts and beetle dung juice or whatever. Of course they are all "artisinally hand crafted with ounly the finest ingredients and purest water" blah, blah, blah .....
Sick of all this marketing crap, give me a whisky made from the tradition grains. Give me a beer made from malted barley/water/yeast. PERIOD!
Is it just me or is everyone else tired of all the gimmicks and marketing double talk?
I noticed the same at micro distilleries. They all have some obscure variation on liquor, whisky made with unicorn farts and beetle dung juice or whatever. Of course they are all "artisinally hand crafted with ounly the finest ingredients and purest water" blah, blah, blah .....
Sick of all this marketing crap, give me a whisky made from the tradition grains. Give me a beer made from malted barley/water/yeast. PERIOD!
Is it just me or is everyone else tired of all the gimmicks and marketing double talk?
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
Yet another good reason for being your own "artisinal" distillery. You can craft your own variation based on your tastes. Myself, I happen to like high corn rye bourbon (75% corn. 12.5% rye, 12.5% barley). No added crap, just grains. But there must be a market for the "oddball" stuff. You have to remember that a distillery is really a marketing company that just so happens to sell booze.
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
I posted this on another forum.
Not exactly about blueberry flavored moonshine but enlightening.
After my last visit to the liquor store and reading some Bourbon blogs I wanted to create a thread about how much of Bourbon is hype and how little "craft".
This says it much better than i could although just like everything this guy says as Gospel. The comments under the video are as "passionate" as some of the ones here.
Cheers
Not exactly about blueberry flavored moonshine but enlightening.
After my last visit to the liquor store and reading some Bourbon blogs I wanted to create a thread about how much of Bourbon is hype and how little "craft".
This says it much better than i could although just like everything this guy says as Gospel. The comments under the video are as "passionate" as some of the ones here.
Cheers
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
I don't see a link.Bamaberry wrote:I posted this on another forum.
Not exactly about blueberry flavored moonshine but enlightening.
After my last visit to the liquor store and reading some Bourbon blogs I wanted to create a thread about how much of Bourbon is hype and how little "craft".
This says it much better than i could although just like everything this guy says as Gospel. The comments under the video are as "passionate" as some of the ones here.
Cheers
Re: Anybody else sick of the different
[/quote]I don't see a link.[/quote]
Just click on the video itself.
Just click on the video itself.
- Twisted Brick
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Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
You're not alone, gb2.Is it just me or is everyone else tired of all the gimmicks and marketing double talk?
Its not just the start-ups, however. There's also the intentionally misleading marketing and labeling practices of recognizable distillers who merely contract purchase their product and portend to handmake 'small batch' artisanal spirits that were made by somebody else in a giant whiskey factory hundreds of miles (Indiana) from the bourbon mecca of Kentucky. https://www.thedailybeast.com/your-craf ... in-indiana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
The winner for blatant deception is Proximo Spirits, 'distiller' of Tin Cup Whiskey. Their ads gave the perception of being distilled in Colorado using pure water when the spirit is actually contract distilled in...... Indiana. The reason it's blatant is that Proximo lost a $425k deceptive advertising lawsuit and immediately went right back to the same ads showing their mountain whiskey being enjoyed at elevation in the snow. You may have caught their ad (YouTube: Tincup Whiskey) during the NLCS baseball playoffs.
http://www.classactionsreporter.com/set ... ass-action" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Isn't that the beauty of homedistilling?Sick of all this marketing crap, give me a whisky made from the tradition grains
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”
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Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
Tried Tin Cup once, after one drink, rest went into the "clean it up"carboy, didn't want to pollute the feints carboy. Absolutely the worst "whiskey" I've tried. It just reinforced my belief that I can make better.
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
I feel the same way. I like my beer as just that. Beer.
While on vacation, the wife and I took a tour of a fairly new craft distillery that only produces rum. They made 3. A white, a 2 year aged in used bourbon barrels, and a pecan honey rum. None very impressive. Their claim to not doing a spiced rum is because distillers use spice to hide the other nastiness. Well, they should start spicing their rum.
While fighting the urge to ask too many questions and getting elbowed in the ribs from the mrs, i asked about how they do their cuts.......distiller makes cuts by taste and smell. I thought, ok these guys are maybe pretty good.
They run a 300 gal boiler into a column, taking usually 5 litres, thats right folks, only 5 LITRES of heads out per run!!!!!! I pull usually 2 litres from a 12 gal spirit run double thumped!!
On to the tasting room, tried all 3 types and instant nose sting. Nothing but heads. All that and a 38 dollar per fifth asking price.
I'll stick with what i make.
While on vacation, the wife and I took a tour of a fairly new craft distillery that only produces rum. They made 3. A white, a 2 year aged in used bourbon barrels, and a pecan honey rum. None very impressive. Their claim to not doing a spiced rum is because distillers use spice to hide the other nastiness. Well, they should start spicing their rum.
While fighting the urge to ask too many questions and getting elbowed in the ribs from the mrs, i asked about how they do their cuts.......distiller makes cuts by taste and smell. I thought, ok these guys are maybe pretty good.
They run a 300 gal boiler into a column, taking usually 5 litres, thats right folks, only 5 LITRES of heads out per run!!!!!! I pull usually 2 litres from a 12 gal spirit run double thumped!!
On to the tasting room, tried all 3 types and instant nose sting. Nothing but heads. All that and a 38 dollar per fifth asking price.
I'll stick with what i make.
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
when the new guys wade into the pool so full of bullshit from the big boys, it's no wonder they have to put out 7 different gins and 10 vodkas with a ton of marketing...gotta make a buck to buy them barrels ya know!
dill pickle vodka all the rage around here. I can't imagine. all y'll that never had a real Canadian Cesar prolly don't get why dill pickle...but it is supposed to make a hella Cesar.
a few friends in the vendor business tell me vodka outsells all other spirits 2-1 (combined!) it's a big chunk o market. In Canada, Rye is the second best seller and spiced rum third.
so what it boils down to is there is no accounting for taste. I mean, i ain't got a hole dirty enough to put dill vodka in, but the shit actually sells out here! Spiced rum is nice for a single round for a change, (h'ain't tried Windy's yet. ) but real unadulterated rum is something you can hang your hat on...and it's damn rare unless you make it yourself.
that was a pretty interesting video ^^^
dill pickle vodka all the rage around here. I can't imagine. all y'll that never had a real Canadian Cesar prolly don't get why dill pickle...but it is supposed to make a hella Cesar.
a few friends in the vendor business tell me vodka outsells all other spirits 2-1 (combined!) it's a big chunk o market. In Canada, Rye is the second best seller and spiced rum third.
so what it boils down to is there is no accounting for taste. I mean, i ain't got a hole dirty enough to put dill vodka in, but the shit actually sells out here! Spiced rum is nice for a single round for a change, (h'ain't tried Windy's yet. ) but real unadulterated rum is something you can hang your hat on...and it's damn rare unless you make it yourself.
that was a pretty interesting video ^^^
I finally quit drinking for good.
now i drink for evil.
now i drink for evil.
- thecroweater
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Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
Its the same story here with blenky fire ant gins etc etc same with beers and ciders. I'm good with it as no one has held a gun to my head and said buy this. I walk into a craft what ever and try what I want to try or a flight/paddle of what I thing will be a selection that will give me a good overview of where they're at. Small fish entering a very big pond need an edge and if that's rhubarb and cranberry gin or zucchini schnapps to corner some hipster market power to them if they can pull it off. Good aged spirits take time too age, that's money laid up so some kind of cash flow strategy is going to be needed by most. Waste of bloody time trying to promote a clean as voddy when it will just be one more of 200 others. Some marketing wank irks me a bit but if I don't like something I don't drink it say like the extra hopped hopsy hopped "IPA's" that taste more like a green pine cone than any actual IPA ya ever tasted. Had one in Kalamazoo MI that had 16 different hops in it, lord god it took till the next day to get my taste buds back on line after that painful hops tea episode yet I liked all their other beers.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
- goinbroke2
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Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
But it so funny when there is a farmers market with 4-5 micro distilleries and 4-5 micro breweries and every freaking one says "our water is so soft and that's why ours is the best" and the next say "our water has lots of minerals, that's why ours is the best" Then there's the "we hand crack every kernel the old fashion way, the way the true artisans did it with a wooden pestle to ensure even.." I said hold on, you crack EVERY piece of grain by hand? The wife jabbed me in the ribs but I waited for an answer. "oh yes, this is what they did years ago before big business took over and ..." hold on, WHO cracked every single kernel of grain with a wooden pestle? It would take you a month per pound! At that several people wandered away and the look on this guys face when he knew he was caught in a lie but didn't know how to back out was priceless. I said are you sure you don't mean you crack every piece with a wooden mill? Seeing his way out he quickly agreed "yes, yes that's what I mean, I don't do it of course, the owner does" This guy is just the minimum wage guy hawking the likker at a farmers market and is going by what he is told to say. I was a bit of a dick, but to me that's flat out lying to the public.
Of course the other side I suppose is that people want a story and don't care if its true, they just want a warm and fuzzy story. Yes I extract raw alcohol from the rare vodka tree that only grows in northern Siberia and we carefully brought one to North America on a wooden boat that used sails exclusively to ensure pollution wouldn't effect the tree during the voyage. Then we used horse and wagons to transplant it to where it is today.
There's a winery that opened Sept 2016 here. They bought a piece of farm land which had a barn on it dated 1888 or something like that. In the valley magazine that promotes foodie stuff and beer/wine/likker for tour buses etc there was several articles. One was about this particular winery. They used the EXACT same words in all three articles, "we don't want to be the biggest, we want to be the best" Then it went on with other stuff with all the catchwords.
I get to the back of the magazine and there are ads there for various things and...hey, there is that winery that just opened in September (magazine was dated Oct 2016) The ad says "come taste the heritage, come taste what history tastes like" couple other things I forget with the image of the old barn and big numbers 1888 superimposed across the whole ad. They've been open a month...and they are talking about history/heritage (and of course artisan/hand crafted/blah/blah/blah)
What a crock of sh1t!
Of course the other side I suppose is that people want a story and don't care if its true, they just want a warm and fuzzy story. Yes I extract raw alcohol from the rare vodka tree that only grows in northern Siberia and we carefully brought one to North America on a wooden boat that used sails exclusively to ensure pollution wouldn't effect the tree during the voyage. Then we used horse and wagons to transplant it to where it is today.
There's a winery that opened Sept 2016 here. They bought a piece of farm land which had a barn on it dated 1888 or something like that. In the valley magazine that promotes foodie stuff and beer/wine/likker for tour buses etc there was several articles. One was about this particular winery. They used the EXACT same words in all three articles, "we don't want to be the biggest, we want to be the best" Then it went on with other stuff with all the catchwords.
I get to the back of the magazine and there are ads there for various things and...hey, there is that winery that just opened in September (magazine was dated Oct 2016) The ad says "come taste the heritage, come taste what history tastes like" couple other things I forget with the image of the old barn and big numbers 1888 superimposed across the whole ad. They've been open a month...and they are talking about history/heritage (and of course artisan/hand crafted/blah/blah/blah)
What a crock of sh1t!
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
goinbroke2 wrote:But it so funny when there is a farmers market with 4-5 micro distilleries and 4-5 micro breweries and every freaking one says "our water is so soft and that's why ours is the best" and the next say "our water has lots of minerals, that's why ours is the best" Then there's the "we hand crack every kernel the old fashion way, the way the true artisans did it with a wooden pestle to ensure even.." I said hold on, you crack EVERY piece of grain by hand? The wife jabbed me in the ribs but I waited for an answer.
What a crock of sh1t!
C'mon GB don't hold back. How do you REALLY feel about it?
I was looking at Twitter. Just for fun I follow some Bourbon bloggers.
Today one was going to review Sunshine Reserve.
No it's not Bourbon, it's "American Whiskey"
"Sunshine Reserve has been carefully crafted to be a soft, complex Whiskey that is as approachable for new drinkers as it is exciting for Whiskey connoisseurs.
Sunshine Reserve has the dominant caramel and vanilla flavors of a Bourbon, but instead of having Bourbon’s heavier oak and smoke flavors, Sunshine Reserve has the soft smoothness and light fruit notes of an Irish Whisky."
http://sunshinereserve.com/#learnmore
From what I've learned here and the liquor store, I can certainly accept an "experimental" mash bill but call bullshit on the rest of it.
Actually, I replied and said it "sounded like donkey piss."
I'm a noob but am I wrong?
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
.
Buyers want a story.
Breweries and Distilleries need to differentiate themselves.
The intersection of those desires creates the Artisan Product.
Firewood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBb9O-aW4zI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Paper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRlBtabKRFM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Motorcycles
https://youtu.be/gMwxnLwcIOs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Pencil Sharpener -- includes a certificate with each shipment!
https://youtu.be/spMaP-_Cq_8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
.
Buyers want a story.
Breweries and Distilleries need to differentiate themselves.
The intersection of those desires creates the Artisan Product.
Firewood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBb9O-aW4zI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Paper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRlBtabKRFM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Motorcycles
https://youtu.be/gMwxnLwcIOs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Pencil Sharpener -- includes a certificate with each shipment!
https://youtu.be/spMaP-_Cq_8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
.
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
Why not just ignore them?
- thecroweater
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Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
Actually that sunshine sounds more down to earth than most of the crap around. You would have taste it to see if they are just rabbiting on but they do going through their method. Thing is marketing is marketing and even the big boys like to use a good shovel of manure to help their story grow, and what's on that shovel will depend on what crap is getting the hipsters and trendsetters wet at any given time. The back stories are often almost comical in the way they are exaggerated and change to fit the latest cool feel. Take a look at JD's ever changing back story or the limestone cave spring that's miles and miles deep making it different to any other spring on the planet, OK well in that case of would be coming out of basalt, likely be high in sulfur and be super heated. Its a spring just like the one up the hill from me and that's without looking at their ever changing origins to suit social climates which should start with "once upon a time" master brewer at 13 under Pastor Call, Welsh aunt's recipe, whole show was started by a slave named Green.
All I'm saying is tends and marketing is not limited to just the craft sector of the industry, when honesty sells they'll use it.
All I'm saying is tends and marketing is not limited to just the craft sector of the industry, when honesty sells they'll use it.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
You're right, and I felt kind of bad. Had a drink and now I feel better.thecroweater wrote:Actually that sunshine sounds more down to earth than most of the crap around.
The actual exchange was:
Bill@ModernThirst @BillStraub
This week's samples awaiting tasting and review: It hit me wrong. Reading the labels of a LOT of "American Whiskey" & "Kentucky Whiskey" including PREVIOUSLY main line Bourbon now means 20% Bourbon blended with 80% Neutral Grain Spirits. And the seasonally spiced whiskey even had bullshit on the label.
So I looked at Sunshine's website & replied to Bill.
"No thanks. This looks like more "crafted" donkey piss.
Sunshine: Who actually distilled it?
Low proof aging?
Cut it first?
How long in bbl?"
Bill didn't run & hide. His reply:
Based on the documentation:
-Manhattan Moonshine co.
-Barrel entry proof: 110
-Of course.
-"At least one day"
So I looked at Manhattan Moonshine
http://www.manhattan-moonshine.com/process/ website who makes Sunshine and yes MM is actually pretty interesting AND funny.
Yes it's in New York City. It's no corn and they brag it's barely aged "less than an hour" to eliminate that harsh oak taste.
In other words, it's White Dog in a VERY pretty bottle.
At least it's more "real deal" than glacier water and " Craft corn hand ground by virgins" kind of crap.
And I replied to Bill,
"Thank you.
As in sure YOU know too many companies spend a lot more time on the tale than the product."
I would at least want to taste it to check out the mash bill.
Now that other "spiced whiskey" -- not so much.
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
Welcome to San Diego!
We have over a dozen craft distillers now and over 250 breweries and I still can't find a regular ole beer that isn't 7-12% flavored something or other.. I just don't bother drinking anymore or get a coors light to wash down the wings.
We have over a dozen craft distillers now and over 250 breweries and I still can't find a regular ole beer that isn't 7-12% flavored something or other.. I just don't bother drinking anymore or get a coors light to wash down the wings.
- Truckinbutch
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Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
I've refined my craft by what I have learned right here over the years . I like my drop and visitors seem to as well . Why would I invest $38 +/- in a bottle with a fancy label that tastes like shit when my own costs me about $4.50 and suits my taste better ?
These 'crafters' wanting to go commercial are never going to cut it as long as they are profit motivated . If they cut like we do for a good drop they would have to double their retail to come close to breaking even . Not their fault . Just what they got to pay to play .
These 'crafters' wanting to go commercial are never going to cut it as long as they are profit motivated . If they cut like we do for a good drop they would have to double their retail to come close to breaking even . Not their fault . Just what they got to pay to play .
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
As a former Craft Distiller, and long time hobbyist, I am compelled to weigh in. As part of our market research, we bought about 40 bottles of different stuff, all admittedly in the brown whiskey world, produced by various Craft Distilleries. We aslo bought several gins, vodkas, and moonshines. IMHO, the majority of these smaller distillers suffer from similar product quality issues, regardless of the beverage style.
1. Much of the liquor is rushed to market in smaller barrels for shorter time frames. This usually results in liquor with high levels of oak tannin still in an unresolved state, in other words, too young a liquor. Young liquor manifests as a harshness in the mouth, and I don't like that.
2. About half of the products I bought had been cut a bit short on each end. Some had too much Heads left in, and most had too much tails left in. Both of these problems can be resolved by longer exposure to barrel aging. This resulted in a 'hot' sensation in the mouth that I don't like.
3. About 80% of the liquor failed to bring forward the 'bourbon' characteristic I like. Bourbon (good bourbon) has a velvety sweetness that I like, and that's generally accomplished by how the Mash cooking process works over the Corn - Plus other grains, combined with a aging process. That's a temperature control issue. When mash gets cooked to between 160 and 175 degrees with not breakout certain starches that become available between the 175 to 185 degree range. Granted the enzymes get neutralized at the high temperatures and that has to be addressed as the mash cools, but when successfully managed, a 185 degree mash will convert more starches. These high temperature starches contribute to more flavorful sugars during the fermentation stage. The whiskeys made form the hot mash will immediately garner a more buttery mouth feel, and be a lot less harsh. As a white liquor (after letting it sit for a week) it is sweeter to the taste, and after 2 years in a small barrel will bring forward lots of caramel, vanilla, and (for our recipe) hints of black cherry flavor as it interacts with the tannin of the barrel.
So, my advise about buying Craft Distilled Whiskey for personal drinking purposes is, approach with caution.
SoSayI.
Boom
1. Much of the liquor is rushed to market in smaller barrels for shorter time frames. This usually results in liquor with high levels of oak tannin still in an unresolved state, in other words, too young a liquor. Young liquor manifests as a harshness in the mouth, and I don't like that.
2. About half of the products I bought had been cut a bit short on each end. Some had too much Heads left in, and most had too much tails left in. Both of these problems can be resolved by longer exposure to barrel aging. This resulted in a 'hot' sensation in the mouth that I don't like.
3. About 80% of the liquor failed to bring forward the 'bourbon' characteristic I like. Bourbon (good bourbon) has a velvety sweetness that I like, and that's generally accomplished by how the Mash cooking process works over the Corn - Plus other grains, combined with a aging process. That's a temperature control issue. When mash gets cooked to between 160 and 175 degrees with not breakout certain starches that become available between the 175 to 185 degree range. Granted the enzymes get neutralized at the high temperatures and that has to be addressed as the mash cools, but when successfully managed, a 185 degree mash will convert more starches. These high temperature starches contribute to more flavorful sugars during the fermentation stage. The whiskeys made form the hot mash will immediately garner a more buttery mouth feel, and be a lot less harsh. As a white liquor (after letting it sit for a week) it is sweeter to the taste, and after 2 years in a small barrel will bring forward lots of caramel, vanilla, and (for our recipe) hints of black cherry flavor as it interacts with the tannin of the barrel.
So, my advise about buying Craft Distilled Whiskey for personal drinking purposes is, approach with caution.
SoSayI.
Boom
“…Let’s do this one more time....”
- goinbroke2
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Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
Excellent reply Boom, many "craft" whiskies are just that, craft. Not better or worse (in most cases) but just made at a smaller local scale. Money is involved and they need to get to market to recoup their investment which results in less than stellar alcohol. This is also why the majority do something which doesn't require aging, vodka. Off the pipe, through a filter, proof and bottle. It's the story that kills me. But, as was previously mentioned, the story sells and all marketers do it so don't let it bother you. True, I guess why I don't care about which toaster is "built from the finest metals and toasts the bread to a lightly caramel colour while retaining the inherent softness of the bread" is because I'm not passionate about toasters...or bread. But feed me a line of shit about likker and well, that gets to me.
I'll still sleep at night and my paycheque won't change so all is good I guess. lol.
I'll still sleep at night and my paycheque won't change so all is good I guess. lol.
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
Serious thanks Boom!BoomTown wrote:
2. About half of the products I bought had been cut a bit short on each end. Some had too much Heads left in, and most had too much tails left in. Both of these problems can be resolved by longer exposure to barrel aging. This resulted in a 'hot' sensation in the mouth that I don't like.
3. About 80% of the liquor failed to bring forward the 'bourbon' characteristic I like. Bourbon (good bourbon) has a velvety sweetness that I like, and that's generally accomplished by how the Mash cooking process works over the Corn - Plus other grains, combined with a aging process. That's a temperature control issue. When mash gets cooked to between 160 and 175 degrees with not breakout certain starches that become available between the 175 to 185 degree range. Granted the enzymes get neutralized at the high temperatures and that has to be addressed as the mash cools, but when successfully managed, a 185 degree mash will convert more starches. These high temperature starches contribute to more flavorful sugars during the fermentation stage. The whiskeys made form the hot mash will immediately garner a more buttery mouth feel, and be a lot less harsh. As a white liquor (after letting it sit for a week) it is sweeter to the taste, and after 2 years in a small barrel will bring forward lots of caramel, vanilla, and (for our recipe) hints of black cherry flavor as it interacts with the tannin of the barrel.
SoSayI.
Boom
Let's pretend I am a dumb Noob - and am in need of tutelage.
I want to run a wheated bourbon mash bill, single run pot with thumper.
My temp gauge is down in the belly of the pot.
What kind of distilling temp should I be looking for, or is that strictly a product of the cuts - and experience?
Thanks as always!
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
When and where to make cuts is the most highly debated skill in the hobby, or the industry I think. When I started, my reading indicated a sort of precentage breakout that helped me get a feel for how to do it. I started by calculating how much liquor I expected to get, total alcohol out. So when I had a mash that ran to 10% to 14% alcohol, and my still held 10 gallon (beer) mash, I could expect to get 1 to 1.4 gallons of alcohol. I doesn't quite work exactly with a pot still because you usually run till your output gets to something like 20% ABV at the output. After that, it's pretty much a waste to keep running (IMHO). I always collected mash/beer runs into a single container and kept it all, collecting several runs till I got enough to a Spirit run. I liked to make Spirit runs of 20 gallon, usually at around 40% ABV which usually produced enough liquor to make telling the break for cuts pretty easy to assess by taste or by the ABV of the output. At 20 gallon of 40% spirit, you can expect about 8 gallon total finished output, more or less depending on how deep into tails you want to run. I usually ran hot on a beer (mash) run, and run slow on a spirit run. I always use a thumper.Bamaberry wrote:BoomTown wrote: Serious thanks Boom!
Let's pretend I am a dumb Noob - and am in need of tutelage.
I want to run a wheated bourbon mash bill, single run pot with thumper.
My temp gauge is down in the belly of the pot.
What kind of distilling temp should I be looking for, or is that strictly a product of the cuts - and experience?
Thanks as always!
Initially I'd break cuts using expecting percentages: fients (10%) heads (20%) and tails about 20%. You can play with these values anyway you want, long as you don't plan to drink the fients, those become really wicked after a few turns through a thumper. This approach would yield about 4 gallon of what I'd call hearts from a 20 gallon run, this gets better with practice, and I've sometime been able to get up to 6 gal of hearts from a 20 gal Spirit run. After a Spirit run, I tossed the fients, and kept the heads and tails to be re run in future spirit runs, (being carefull to use them only with the same recipe wash). I'd combine the heads and tails in the thumper, And after 4 or 5 runs, I'd simply snag about 2 gallons of the leavings ifrom the thumper to use with a beer run. That usually gave me some fairly good base liquor, which worked out well as either White Dog, or aged in oak. As you learn the tastes of each stage, you'll be able to decide when you want to make a cut by the smell, and be able to move that decision point closer to something you will decide is your best booze.
After a few Spirit runs, you'll be able to read the ABV of the output and tell pretty close to when the cuts will break, but until you've run your rig a few times, and kept notes that you study, that's not as simple as using the percentage method. It gets a little 'blurry' until you know exactly how your rig works.
I think it's best to acquire a taste for white dog, cause aging is something newbies have a problem waiting for. I'd suggest: Never try to drink anything you add oak to before 6 months, and it'll be a lot different at a year. To get there, At first, I split the hearts half on oak, and half as white dog. After a couple of years, I started putting most of a run on oak because I'd made enough brown liquor that I didn't have to keep the white back for personal drinking.
This is a pretty rough way of doing cuts, but it's a place to start when you don't know what each section of a run will taste like. IMHO, The big mistake some folks make is trying to make cuts on the stream comping out the pipe by taste alone. I've never figured out how to stay sober enough to make that work for myself.
Enjoy
“…Let’s do this one more time....”
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
Thanks for the insight - never enough.BoomTown wrote: I think it's best to acquire a taste for white dog, cause aging is something newbies have a problem waiting for.
Enjoy
As to White Dog, I visited McCormick Distillery in Missouri this spring. Not exactly top shelf, but an educational tour.
While there, they had just started running wheated bourbon, We tasted some 130 proof straight out of the column.
About the smoothest thing I've every had.
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
Yeah, a 23 plate column is nice, you can shunt away bad alcohals by adjusting a few valves and what comes to the liquor vault is pure hearts. Most of us can't afford that kind of rig, and my posting is about simple pot stilling. Appreciate your comments about McCormick, it's always nice to hear kind words about someone's best efforts!Bamaberry wrote:Thanks for the insight - never enough.BoomTown wrote: I think it's best to acquire a taste for white dog, cause aging is something newbies have a problem waiting for.
Enjoy
As to White Dog, I visited McCormick Distillery in Missouri this spring. Not exactly top shelf, but an educational tour.
While there, they had just started running wheated bourbon, We tasted some 130 proof straight out of the column.
About the smoothest thing I've every had.
“…Let’s do this one more time....”
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
Interesting discussion. I largely agree with the general sentiment. I don't like sweet, fruity, or "artisanal" additives in my beer or spirits. I want to appreciate a well made drink itself. (I feel the same way about coconut in chocolate frosting. Why doctor up something that's already perfect?)
But that's just my personal preference. My significant other wants to drink sweet, flavored things things that remind me of cheap soda. I don't know why, but that's what she likes.
As for the "Craft" movement - it's a two edged sword. Tends to turn into marketing hype, and the generally uninformed follow the hype rather than the product's merits. But on the other hand, it builds awareness in general for something that otherwise gets driven by mass-manufactured commerce, so it's not all bad. Beer is a great example. In the U.S. we went from thousands of local breweries and many styles of beers before the wars of the first half of the 20th century and prohibition, and in the 70's there was nothing but fizzy piss beers available for purchase, almost entirely dominated by ads about baseball or boobs. After homebrewing was legalized and the homebrewing movement inspired people to brew a better product, a growing awareness led to a mature "craft beer" industry with many choices of many good beers. The price we pay is that you have to watch out for the crappy fruit beers that try to hang on the craft label.
But that's just my personal preference. My significant other wants to drink sweet, flavored things things that remind me of cheap soda. I don't know why, but that's what she likes.
As for the "Craft" movement - it's a two edged sword. Tends to turn into marketing hype, and the generally uninformed follow the hype rather than the product's merits. But on the other hand, it builds awareness in general for something that otherwise gets driven by mass-manufactured commerce, so it's not all bad. Beer is a great example. In the U.S. we went from thousands of local breweries and many styles of beers before the wars of the first half of the 20th century and prohibition, and in the 70's there was nothing but fizzy piss beers available for purchase, almost entirely dominated by ads about baseball or boobs. After homebrewing was legalized and the homebrewing movement inspired people to brew a better product, a growing awareness led to a mature "craft beer" industry with many choices of many good beers. The price we pay is that you have to watch out for the crappy fruit beers that try to hang on the craft label.
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
I'm not sick of CRAFT oddities, but false advertising is sick.
If you buy it from another manufacturer, bottle it, get labels approved and deliver it to a wholesaler for retail, you are not a distiller. You might be Rectifier!
"An alcohol rectifier is someone who buys different alcohols or wines, creates new and different blends, and then packages and resells the product under their own label. They do not manufacture or distill the alcohol, but rather just blend products from other manufacturers."
Now, I have been to a place that the alcohol never even passes through their doors. They have a distiller's permit, but contract everything from the bottling to delivery to the wholesaler. I'm not even sure that is legal.
If you buy it from another manufacturer, bottle it, get labels approved and deliver it to a wholesaler for retail, you are not a distiller. You might be Rectifier!
"An alcohol rectifier is someone who buys different alcohols or wines, creates new and different blends, and then packages and resells the product under their own label. They do not manufacture or distill the alcohol, but rather just blend products from other manufacturers."
Now, I have been to a place that the alcohol never even passes through their doors. They have a distiller's permit, but contract everything from the bottling to delivery to the wholesaler. I'm not even sure that is legal.
CCVM http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
DSP-AR-20005
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
DSP-AR-20005
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Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
This is not uncommon @Dad, MGP alone sell finished and party finished whiskeys to over 50 different labels, not the MGP is bad. In fact my bourbon of choice was Cougar Bourbon which is MGP's Aussie label and I'm pretty partial to George Dickel rye which is a MGP rye whiskey. Where ethics do go out the window is with say Templeton where they pretended to be using their old prohibition recipes made on site with local ingredients when actually they were buying in the rye whiskey finished, aged and all and actually off MGP as well but there are many wholesale suppliers like them
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGP_of_Indiana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
There is a supplier like that to many labels sold in Australia and NZ just referred to as the Kentucky state distillery. Labels suck as Nelson County, Kentucky gold, Confederate, Iron horse, etc etc all the same crap whiskey with different labels. They don't specifically claim to have made it themselves so I guess that's how they keep it legal. This is not specific to craft of micro-distilleries, heck I thing Jim Beam is in on the act with their rye and darn well know bullet rye is. Then ya got the mobs they buy the distillers beer off breweries and distill and age themselves. I guess they can claim part ownership of that but to me its not really their whiskey. Very common here is folks buying in bulk nuetral grape spirit from crowds like Tarac and produce flavoured vodka and gins, again I feel that is only a part ownership and slightly misleading. Tarac is one of Australia's bulk spirit suppliers and its bulk spirit quality sold in 1000 litre plastic ICBs. That primarily fortifying spirit is not amazing but it is a very very common practice here. Hell even the locally just opened distillery does this and they are primarily a brewery. So they feed their partially spent mash to stock and buy in grape spirit for their Whits spirits, go figure.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGP_of_Indiana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
There is a supplier like that to many labels sold in Australia and NZ just referred to as the Kentucky state distillery. Labels suck as Nelson County, Kentucky gold, Confederate, Iron horse, etc etc all the same crap whiskey with different labels. They don't specifically claim to have made it themselves so I guess that's how they keep it legal. This is not specific to craft of micro-distilleries, heck I thing Jim Beam is in on the act with their rye and darn well know bullet rye is. Then ya got the mobs they buy the distillers beer off breweries and distill and age themselves. I guess they can claim part ownership of that but to me its not really their whiskey. Very common here is folks buying in bulk nuetral grape spirit from crowds like Tarac and produce flavoured vodka and gins, again I feel that is only a part ownership and slightly misleading. Tarac is one of Australia's bulk spirit suppliers and its bulk spirit quality sold in 1000 litre plastic ICBs. That primarily fortifying spirit is not amazing but it is a very very common practice here. Hell even the locally just opened distillery does this and they are primarily a brewery. So they feed their partially spent mash to stock and buy in grape spirit for their Whits spirits, go figure.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
I went to pigeon forge and everything i tasted was shit...or flavored shit.
Not impressed.
Not impressed.
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Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
RedwoodHillBilly wrote:Yet another good reason for being your own "artisinal" distillery. You can craft your own variation based on your tastes. Myself, I happen to like high corn rye bourbon (75% corn. 12.5% rye, 12.5% barley). No added crap, just grains. But there must be a market for the "oddball" stuff. You have to remember that a distillery is really a marketing company that just so happens to sell booze.
Im going to try this grain bill, i dont think i have run it yet.
If i have its long gone lol
Thanks buddy.
Re: Anybody else sick of the different "craft liquors"?
Try it, I think that you'll like it. Everybody that has tasted it says that it isn't undrinkableWorm_Drippinz wrote:RedwoodHillBilly wrote:Yet another good reason for being your own "artisinal" distillery. You can craft your own variation based on your tastes. Myself, I happen to like high corn rye bourbon (75% corn. 12.5% rye, 12.5% barley). No added crap, just grains. But there must be a market for the "oddball" stuff. You have to remember that a distillery is really a marketing company that just so happens to sell booze.
Im going to try this grain bill, i dont think i have run it yet.
If i have its long gone lol
Thanks buddy.
My general Bourbon base starts with 75% corn. I then add malts for various flavors. I happen to like a high corn bourbon for it's sweetness, and I'm cheap frugal. The rye isn't bad, I also do a wheat that is the same except I substitute red wheat malt for the rye malt. I'm trying a new recipe (HWB) that I think will work well. it is 75% corn, 10% red wheat malt, 10% 2 row brewers malt and 5% honey malt. I tried HBB, it was OK, but I thought it too wheat heavy and kinda boring. But I did like the flavor that the honey malt brought to the party.
We'll see how the HWB (honey wheated bourbon) works out.
I may also try a HRB (honey rye bourbon) 75% corn, 10% malted rye, 10% malted barley, and 5% honey malt for a comparison.
That's a lot of the fun in this hobby, trying new things and seeing if they work as well as one thinks they will.