Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

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Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by NKT »

I know a couple who just got their new micro-distillery licensed and operating. They're not really close friends, but I've worked with and for them in my day job as a civil engineer, and I know them well enough to know that they're pretty awesome people.

I just saw a bottle of their newly-released all-wheat white whiskey at a local liquor store, picked up a bottle without a second thought, and took it home with more than a little excitement. I cracked the seal, poured a shot, swirled it under my nose, savored a deep smell, and...

It was bad. Really, really bad.

On closer inspection, I noticed that there were little bluish flecks floating in the bottle... a tell-tale sign that the tails-cut was a couple of miles back. There was some really good flavor hidden in there, but as it is, it's really undrinkable. I even tried mixing with coke to see if it was better diluted, but I still couldn't stomach it. I can't imagine anyone finishing a bottle of this, let alone buying a second bottle.

As I said before, these are some pretty awesome people, and in their primary occupation as contractors, I've seen them build some truly amazing buildings. I know they're sharp creative people, but apparently clueless about the actual nuts and bolts of distilling.

Finally the question: does anyone have advice about how to tactfully approach them and offer help? I know the answer is probably to just lay it out there without any BS, offer help, and then never mention it again if they decline... I'm just so taken aback at how bad it was that I am at a loss as to how to approach them. Ideally, I'd like to help them succeed without stepping on toes or burning bridges. Any thoughts?
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

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NKT wrote:I know a couple who just got their new micro-distillery licensed and operating. They're not really close friends, but I've worked with and for them in my day job as a civil engineer, and I know them well enough to know that they're pretty awesome people.

I just saw a bottle of their newly-released all-wheat white whiskey at a local liquor store, picked up a bottle without a second thought, and took it home with more than a little excitement. I cracked the seal, poured a shot, swirled it under my nose, savored a deep smell, and...

It was bad. Really, really bad.

On closer inspection, I noticed that there were little bluish flecks floating in the bottle... a tell-tale sign that the tails-cut was a couple of miles back. There was some really good flavor hidden in there, but as it is, it's really undrinkable. I even tried mixing with coke to see if it was better diluted, but I still couldn't stomach it. I can't imagine anyone finishing a bottle of this, let alone buying a second bottle.

As I said before, these are some pretty awesome people, and in their primary occupation as contractors, I've seen them build some truly amazing buildings. I know they're sharp creative people, but apparently clueless about the actual nuts and bolts of distilling.

Finally the question: does anyone have advice about how to tactfully approach them and offer help? I know the answer is probably to just lay it out there without any BS, offer help, and then never mention it again if they decline... I'm just so taken aback at how bad it was that I am at a loss as to how to approach them. Ideally, I'd like to help them succeed without stepping on toes or burning bridges. Any thoughts?

Take your bottle to them straight away, along with information about the store where you bought it. They need to know the problems, and sooner is better that later. If they are brand new, first impressions are crucial. It is our experience that the excitement of getting something into the bottle can lead to mistakes. And, BTW, we like to make our cuts into a volume (especially for white ) and let the volume sit in an open (ish) container for a few days. Those copper impurities will manifest after about a week, if they are there. There is a good chance they simply hadn't used the worm for awhile and grabbed excitedly. Patience is crucial when distilling legally, and first impressions are everything. Do them a favor, and provide a little Q.C. feedback.

Help your friends out, and volunteer to go collect any other unsold bottles, or exchange a later release for the contaminated stock, if they are your friends. They (read us new distillers) need all the help we can get from our friends.

So Say I.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by Bushman »

I would echo what BoomTown is saying. If it is not corrected they will lose a lot of money and you will feel bad not saying something sooner to your friends.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by Danespirit »

+1 BoomTown

I would also vote for telling them the truth about their product.
A bad reputation caused by an inferior product can take a long time to recover from...putting their newly started business in jeopardy.
A true friend is also a person that can come forward with constructive criticism, and help to get things sorted out.
Good luck to your friends..
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by Truckinbutch »

All good advice . You are hurting your friends if you remain silent .
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by rubber duck »

I would take them a bottle of yours and then wait for the that's so good how did you do that question. Either way they need to know.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by NKT »

Thanks for the quick replies... I'll talk to them over the weekend.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by NKT »

BoomTown wrote:
NKT wrote:I know a couple who just got their new micro-distillery licensed and operating. They're not really close friends, but I've worked with and for them in my day job as a civil engineer, and I know them well enough to know that they're pretty awesome people.

I just saw a bottle of their newly-released all-wheat white whiskey at a local liquor store, picked up a bottle without a second thought, and took it home with more than a little excitement. I cracked the seal, poured a shot, swirled it under my nose, savored a deep smell, and...

It was bad. Really, really bad.

On closer inspection, I noticed that there were little bluish flecks floating in the bottle... a tell-tale sign that the tails-cut was a couple of miles back. There was some really good flavor hidden in there, but as it is, it's really undrinkable. I even tried mixing with coke to see if it was better diluted, but I still couldn't stomach it. I can't imagine anyone finishing a bottle of this, let alone buying a second bottle.

As I said before, these are some pretty awesome people, and in their primary occupation as contractors, I've seen them build some truly amazing buildings. I know they're sharp creative people, but apparently clueless about the actual nuts and bolts of distilling.

Finally the question: does anyone have advice about how to tactfully approach them and offer help? I know the answer is probably to just lay it out there without any BS, offer help, and then never mention it again if they decline... I'm just so taken aback at how bad it was that I am at a loss as to how to approach them. Ideally, I'd like to help them succeed without stepping on toes or burning bridges. Any thoughts?

Take your bottle to them straight away, along with information about the store where you bought it. They need to know the problems, and sooner is better that later. If they are brand new, first impressions are crucial. It is our experience that the excitement of getting something into the bottle can lead to mistakes. And, BTW, we like to make our cuts into a volume (especially for white ) and let the volume sit in an open (ish) container for a few days. Those copper impurities will manifest after about a week, if they are there. There is a good chance they simply hadn't used the worm for awhile and grabbed excitedly. Patience is crucial when distilling legally, and first impressions are everything. Do them a favor, and provide a little Q.C. feedback.

Help your friends out, and volunteer to go collect any other unsold bottles, or exchange a later release for the contaminated stock, if they are your friends. They (read us new distillers) need all the help we can get from our friends.

So Say I.
Boomtown
Thanks Boomtown, this was a helpful kick in the ass.

Just to clarify, this wasn't just some copper impurities from a condenser sitting unused too long. The smell of the bottle is just like that of a stripping run taken down to 10% ABV coming out of the condenser; they completely missed the tails-cut.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by Shiny Coke »

+1 with Truckinbutch. It aint fun or easy but at the end of the day all a man has is his integrity and the truth.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by rad14701 »

They may have run deep into the tails to improve profit margin, or due to inexperience, but that in no way correlates to the colored flecks at the bottom of the bottle... That would be a foreign impurity - most likely copper salts - which can be unhealthy to consume... If bad reviews get back to the distributor in charge of marketing their wares they could end up back on the outside looking in as far as product being on liquor store shelves... Break it to them gently and point them here if they don't grasp what you're talking about... This isn't something they should consider simply attempting to filter out...
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by HDNB »

Maybe let them read this thread. If they are truly in it to deliver a superior product they could join up and post the ingredients of the grain bill, mash protocol, yeast and time/temps of ferment and finally how it was distilled on what type of equipment...and then let the membership pick it apart so they can put it together the right way next time.
all the different eyes here will be able to send them in the right direction if they are smart enough to share. and if it's swill, there ain't no harm in sharing...hopefully ego doesn't play too big a roll and they can see it for the learning experience that it is.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by BoomTown »

HDNB wrote:Maybe let them read this thread. If they are truly in it to deliver a superior product they could join up and post the ingredients of the grain bill, mash protocol, yeast and time/temps of ferment and finally how it was distilled on what type of equipment...and then let the membership pick it apart so they can put it together the right way next time.
all the different eyes here will be able to send them in the right direction if they are smart enough to share. and if it's swill, there ain't no harm in sharing...hopefully ego doesn't play too big a roll and they can see it for the learning experience that it is.
echo, echo, thanks HDNB. These guys are better than a college prep course, and cheaper too. Your friends need to align themselves with good advisers.

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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

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rad14701 wrote:They may have run deep into the tails to improve profit margin, or due to inexperience, but that in no way correlates to the colored flecks at the bottom of the bottle... That would be a foreign impurity - most likely copper salts - which can be unhealthy to consume... If bad reviews get back to the distributor in charge of marketing their wares they could end up back on the outside looking in as far as product being on liquor store shelves... Break it to them gently and point them here if they don't grasp what you're talking about... This isn't something they should consider simply attempting to filter out...
Now I'm going to take my own thread on a tangent... I'm puzzled by what you are saying here. I've done the exercise, probably about ten times, where you collect an entire run in small jars, kept in order, and smell/taste them the next day to get a feel for what's happening throughout the run. In every single one of those exercises, I've seen the little precipitate particles out really deep in the tails, well after the "wet", "cardboard", and "dog" smells start showing up. The flecks in the bottle looked exactly the same as the ones I see in my jars that were collected around 10-15% ABV. From my experience, these particles correlate very well with running really deep into the tails. What am I missing?
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by rad14701 »

NKT wrote:
rad14701 wrote:They may have run deep into the tails to improve profit margin, or due to inexperience, but that in no way correlates to the colored flecks at the bottom of the bottle... That would be a foreign impurity - most likely copper salts - which can be unhealthy to consume... If bad reviews get back to the distributor in charge of marketing their wares they could end up back on the outside looking in as far as product being on liquor store shelves... Break it to them gently and point them here if they don't grasp what you're talking about... This isn't something they should consider simply attempting to filter out...
Now I'm going to take my own thread on a tangent... I'm puzzled by what you are saying here. I've done the exercise, probably about ten times, where you collect an entire run in small jars, kept in order, and smell/taste them the next day to get a feel for what's happening throughout the run. In every single one of those exercises, I've seen the little precipitate particles out really deep in the tails, well after the "wet", "cardboard", and "dog" smells start showing up. The flecks in the bottle looked exactly the same as the ones I see in my jars that were collected around 10-15% ABV. From my experience, these particles correlate very well with running really deep into the tails. What am I missing?
I, personally, have never had green particles or flecks in my tails... But, then again, I don't do all grain mashes... All I have ever gotten is fusel oils floating on top of the tails and I've run down to under 10% more than a few times... Heck, I've only ever had clouding a time or three... The only flecks I've ever found was from not adequately drying my copper after a post-distillation hot rinse but that was found before still assembly and cleaned without overly disturbing the coppers patina...
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

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rad14701 wrote: I, personally, have never had green particles or flecks in my tails... But, then again, I don't do all grain mashes... All I have ever gotten is fusel oils floating on top of the tails and I've run down to under 10% more than a few times... Heck, I've only ever had clouding a time or three... The only flecks I've ever found was from not adequately drying my copper after a post-distillation hot rinse but that was found before still assembly and cleaned without overly disturbing the coppers patina...
i never see them on sugar wash but I *think* i know what you are talking about. i have seen floaty light greenish-blue almost look like fluffy snowflakes in deep tails on a single run, or (particularly)in stripping runs. they tended to settle to the bottom/lower part of the jar. If you run it through a filter, nothing collects in the filter material.and it goes back into solution. never waited again to see if they come back after that...just did a spirit run.

never seen these "snowflakes" in a AG spirit run, like Rad, on a sugar wash... I only seen some shiny floating oils in AG spirit runs.

i did run some blue-green copper oxides out of a dirty still once, but that was a very small amount and once it was washed out, the rest of the collection was clean and clear. they were solid, and stuck in filter material. brushed up my post-run cleaning protocol after that and have not had a problem since. (no way i can imagine enough to contaminate "bottles" worth of quantity. jus a couple jars of heads.)
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by NKT »

HDNB wrote:
rad14701 wrote: I, personally, have never had green particles or flecks in my tails... But, then again, I don't do all grain mashes... All I have ever gotten is fusel oils floating on top of the tails and I've run down to under 10% more than a few times... Heck, I've only ever had clouding a time or three... The only flecks I've ever found was from not adequately drying my copper after a post-distillation hot rinse but that was found before still assembly and cleaned without overly disturbing the coppers patina...
i never see them on sugar wash but I *think* i know what you are talking about. i have seen floaty light greenish-blue almost look like fluffy snowflakes in deep tails on a single run, or (particularly)in stripping runs. they tended to settle to the bottom/lower part of the jar. If you run it through a filter, nothing collects in the filter material.and it goes back into solution. never waited again to see if they come back after that...just did a spirit run.

never seen these "snowflakes" in a AG spirit run, like Rad, on a sugar wash... I only seen some shiny floating oils in AG spirit runs.

i did run some blue-green copper oxides out of a dirty still once, but that was a very small amount and once it was washed out, the rest of the collection was clean and clear. they were solid, and stuck in filter material. brushed up my post-run cleaning protocol after that and have not had a problem since. (no way i can imagine enough to contaminate "bottles" worth of quantity. jus a couple jars of heads.)
This is a good description of what I'm seeing. I have a carboy of apple-brandy low wines that has been patiently waiting for a spirit run since fall. Because it was a stripping run, I collected well into the tails, and had the little floaties show up, and they have now settled into a layer on the bottom. I was toying with the idea of trying to rack the clear liquid off like you would with wine, leaving the sediment behind. Good to know the filtering doesn't seem to work.
Last edited by NKT on Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by bitter »

I hope you can help your friends out. I tried a Commercial Moonshine from upstate NY on the weekend that someone brought to a party... and I could not drink it.. was horrible.. Tasted worst than a stripping run with only the foreshot removed. It really too bad I am sure will really hurt sales in terms of repeat business.

B
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

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bitter wrote:I hope you can help your friends out. I tried a Commercial Moonshine from upstate NY on the weekend that someone brought to a party... and I could not drink it.. was horrible.. Tasted worst than a stripping run with only the foreshot removed. It really too bad I am sure will really hurt sales in terms of repeat business.

B
Just a note: We've got our "Misty Morning" for sale, and never have had any comments like the above...but then, our M.M. isn't sold to be Moonshine, but a white whiskey. We use the same whiskey for Misty Morning that we put into barrels, and it's an outstanding drink.

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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by jedneck »

If I was a licences craft distiller I would wanna know if anyone had issues with what was being produced. I believe it takes a lot of good word to make up for one bad.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by bbok »

Read this the other day and the OP reminded me of it. You have to get to the last para to see my point

http://spiritsjournal.klwines.com/klwin ... rt-ii.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by raketemensch »

A few days of hurt feelings is far better than a ruined business. Just be as gentle as you can, because they'll default to being defensive.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by pfshine »

Just bring a bottle of yours or a competitors and have them do a taste test. Bring a jar of heads and a jar of tails to compare, knowledge is power. That power directly relates to whether they prosper or fail.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

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I would want to know. having bad stuff will end a business quickly.

My first big ferments are just finishing up and I will be having people taste before I open to the general public.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by NKT »

bbok wrote:Read this the other day and the OP reminded me of it. You have to get to the last para to see my point

http://spiritsjournal.klwines.com/klwin ... rt-ii.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
That's a really good and insightful article; thanks for the link. I really don't think that's what is happening in this case. These folks are a long-standing and highly-visible part of the (small) local community. They really are fantastic artists in their primary occupation as builders, and it seems like their intent is to take their distillery to a similar level. They are making all-grain whiskey from local wheat, from grain to bottle, and are planning to age in full-size barrels. No shortcuts based on buying bulk whiskey or NGS and running it through their still or messing around with small barrels or other accelerated aging methods.

Thanks again to all who have responded. I felt a little silly even asking the question, but the replies have been very helpful.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by bitter »

BoomTown wrote:
bitter wrote:I hope you can help your friends out. I tried a Commercial Moonshine from upstate NY on the weekend that someone brought to a party... and I could not drink it.. was horrible.. Tasted worst than a stripping run with only the foreshot removed. It really too bad I am sure will really hurt sales in terms of repeat business.

B
Just a note: We've got our "Misty Morning" for sale, and never have had any comments like the above...but then, our M.M. isn't sold to be Moonshine, but a white whiskey. We use the same whiskey for Misty Morning that we put into barrels, and it's an outstanding drink.

Boom
Boom I confirmed with the purchaser what one it was... and its this one
http://XXXXXXX/XXX-dog-moonshine/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

The two dog bottle on the left.

I could taste heads really strong!!! And was head on the tails also. It gave me a headache in 1 sip... Tried the second.. to confirm... and down the drain my sample went.. I apologized and the guy said he said the same.. was very dissappointed.

B
Last edited by bitter on Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

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bitter wrote: Boom I confirmed with the purchaser what one it was... and its this one
http://XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

The XXXXXXX bottle on the left.

I could taste heads really strong!!! And was head on the tails also. It gave me a headache in 1 sip... Tried the second.. to confirm... and down the drain my sample went.. I apologized and the guy said he said the same.. was very dissappointed.
You might want to think about rolling this post back. The problem your are trying to help your friend with might be better served if the actual brand was allowed to recover quietly. No real benefit to them by posting their label here, it can be easily retrieved via a search engine, and the problem magnified even after they make an honest effort to correct their problem.

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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by DAD300 »

A- I agree you should edit the name out.
B- Don't stress yourself, tell them anonymously via email that you found a bad bottle!
C- they have a lot of products and are marketing this bottle as moonshine...any chance they wanted that "uncut" flavor?
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Re: Recently licensed micro-distillery, etiquette question

Post by bitter »

BoomTown wrote: B, you might want to think about rolling this post back. The problem your are trying to help your friend with might be better served if the actual brand was allowed to recover quietly. No real benefit to them by posting their label here, it can be easily retrieved via a search engine, and the problem magnified even after they make an honest effort to correct their problem.

Regards,
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I removed the link etc. But you misunderstand (someone else started the thread)... I have no affirmation or know the owners etc. A friend purchased the bottle in the USA and brought it back to try moonshine. I actually did email the distillery already...

B
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