Starting a (nano) distillery
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- fortbuilder825
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Starting a (nano) distillery
Whelp, we've taken the leap. In the final part of the first part of hoops through which to jump.
We've got location, most the funding, corporation formed, and in discussions with the local government (county and state, we're rather rural).
Getting ready for the TTB paperwork, have it filled out, but thinking of the online option.
What are the pitfalls?
Oh, our state has 5 producing micro distilleries, two others in startup - but with tasting rooms/cocktail bars.
We were thinking of just producing at first, tasting room as finances allow.
FortBuilder
Any advice is totally appreciated and requested.
We've got location, most the funding, corporation formed, and in discussions with the local government (county and state, we're rather rural).
Getting ready for the TTB paperwork, have it filled out, but thinking of the online option.
What are the pitfalls?
Oh, our state has 5 producing micro distilleries, two others in startup - but with tasting rooms/cocktail bars.
We were thinking of just producing at first, tasting room as finances allow.
FortBuilder
Any advice is totally appreciated and requested.
- fortbuilder825
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
One further bit of info, we want to use pot stills (as that's what I know).
Surfing the internet shows some legit small distilleries using setups that look like mine, and I have yet to find a regulation that says I can't build my own still (metalworking is a more-than-hobby of mine). Is that allowed? Can I build my own still? Labyrinthine federal regs don't seem to speak on that.
FortBuilder
Surfing the internet shows some legit small distilleries using setups that look like mine, and I have yet to find a regulation that says I can't build my own still (metalworking is a more-than-hobby of mine). Is that allowed? Can I build my own still? Labyrinthine federal regs don't seem to speak on that.
FortBuilder
- der wo
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
How much smaller is a nano distillery than a micro distillery? And pico distilleries?
I remember a legal US distillery with a very unique self made still. He posted here not long ago. Perhaps someone else remembers the thread, then you could pm him.
I remember a legal US distillery with a very unique self made still. He posted here not long ago. Perhaps someone else remembers the thread, then you could pm him.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
- fortbuilder825
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
There really isn't a class designation, as I read the federal regs. But I'm following more the nanobrewery model (a lot of bootstrapping instead of investing) with the plan that as we grow we'll get nicer and nicer stuff.der wo wrote:How much smaller is a nano distillery than a micro distillery? And pico distilleries?
I remember a legal US distillery with a very unique self made still. He posted here not long ago. Perhaps someone else remembers the thread, then you could pm him.
- Single Malt Yinzer
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
Go here: http://adiforums.com/index.php?/discover/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Yes you can. You will need to put a serial number on the boiler and column. Some people use an etcher so it can't rub off. It can be anything so you can just make up something. You will need it for your TTB app. Make sure you understand the regs concerning raw materials, production recording, and proofing. Those are the big get you in trouble items. The rest is easier to deal with. COLA's (label approvals) can be a pain if you're not doing something simple. There's tons to know but ADI is a little more appropriate forum for that. Go there and start looking around.fortbuilder825 wrote:I have yet to find a regulation that says I can't build my own still (metalworking is a more-than-hobby of mine). Is that allowed? Can I build my own still? Labyrinthine federal regs don't seem to speak on that. FortBuilder
- fortbuilder825
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
Thanks so much!Single Malt Yinzer wrote:Go here: http://adiforums.com/index.php?/discover/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Yes you can. You will need to put a serial number on the boiler and column. Some people use an etcher so it can't rub off. It can be anything so you can just make up something. You will need it for your TTB app. Make sure you understand the regs concerning raw materials, production recording, and proofing. Those are the big get you in trouble items. The rest is easier to deal with. COLA's (label approvals) can be a pain if you're not doing something simple. There's tons to know but ADI is a little more appropriate forum for that. Go there and start looking around.fortbuilder825 wrote:I have yet to find a regulation that says I can't build my own still (metalworking is a more-than-hobby of mine). Is that allowed? Can I build my own still? Labyrinthine federal regs don't seem to speak on that. FortBuilder
Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
Nano breweries are thought to be smaller than microbreweries and run by a single person. However the amount of barrels produced is not defined. New Hampshire however has taken it a step further.
It is commonly thought that a nanobrewery is defined as a brewery that produces no more than 3 barrels of beer in one batch. A brand new New Hampshire law has added more structure to what a nanobrewery is though, defining them as breweries that produce less than 2,000 barrels annually
- bluefish_dist
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
I was where you are about 2.5 years ago. Now we are coming up on our one year being open. I wish you luck.
I have learned a few things and I would say you might want to reconsider the tasting room second. Sales in distribution are hard and cost $$. You also make a lot less margin.
I would also guess your still is too small. After running for a year, I have a much better feel on how much you have to make to cover costs. It's more than we projected and the easiest way to make more is to do larger batches. The incremental cost is low on your labor which will be the bottleneck. But to answer your question, yes you can make your still depending on your municipality.
I have learned a few things and I would say you might want to reconsider the tasting room second. Sales in distribution are hard and cost $$. You also make a lot less margin.
I would also guess your still is too small. After running for a year, I have a much better feel on how much you have to make to cover costs. It's more than we projected and the easiest way to make more is to do larger batches. The incremental cost is low on your labor which will be the bottleneck. But to answer your question, yes you can make your still depending on your municipality.
Formerly
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
" You will need to put a serial number on the boiler and column."
Years ago farmer relations made up a tractor using the transmission from a tank, and I think a Caterpillar engine.
They had to quote a serial number so used their initials and birthdate (twins).
Written on the tractor frame with a welder...
Geoff
Years ago farmer relations made up a tractor using the transmission from a tank, and I think a Caterpillar engine.
They had to quote a serial number so used their initials and birthdate (twins).
Written on the tractor frame with a welder...
Geoff
The Baker
- fortbuilder825
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
Excellent advice. May I PM you with some questions?bluefish_dist wrote:I was where you are about 2.5 years ago. Now we are coming up on our one year being open. I wish you luck.
I have learned a few things and I would say you might want to reconsider the tasting room second. Sales in distribution are hard and cost $$. You also make a lot less margin.
I would also guess your still is too small. After running for a year, I have a much better feel on how much you have to make to cover costs. It's more than we projected and the easiest way to make more is to do larger batches. The incremental cost is low on your labor which will be the bottleneck. But to answer your question, yes you can make your still depending on your municipality.
Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
I concur with Bluefish. Rethink the tasting room. For financial success and growth advertising and marketing is as important (if not more) than the product itself. The average Joe/Jill can't tell the sublety of differences between brands of whiskey. But word of mouth and customers being able to brag about having their own neighborhood distillery will make or break your endeavor. Good luck. I think every soul on this board harbors dreams of being able to sell (legally) a bottle of their work. Few have the stones to do it.
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
I am starting too. Great advice
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- raketemensch
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
How big is/are your boiler(s)? How much are you fermenting at a time that you’re seeing genuine profit?bluefish_dist wrote: I would also guess your still is too small. After running for a year, I have a much better feel on how much you have to make to cover costs. It's more than we projected and the easiest way to make more is to do larger batches. The incremental cost is low on your labor which will be the bottleneck. But to answer your question, yes you can make your still depending on your municipality.
Obviously it’s at least as important that you’re selling a good amount, but what level of production did you need to have before you felt like it was “enough?”
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
TTB is running around 101 days. We are at 83 days with no contact. The times stated are start to finish, but know knows how accurate they are.
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- bluefish_dist
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
I currently have a 120 gallon still, with 85 gallon fermenters. I am adding 110 gallon fermenters, but another local distillery runs 300 gallon on both. That would be a lot nicer. If you are going cheap, 300 gal still and ibc tote fermenters will take you a long way.
Not going to post my break even here, but I would say $100 sale price per gallon is a decent price for budgeting. Less if you do three tier, then maybe $60/gallon gross.
Not going to post my break even here, but I would say $100 sale price per gallon is a decent price for budgeting. Less if you do three tier, then maybe $60/gallon gross.
Formerly
Dsp-CO-20051
Dsp-CO-20051
Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
Curious, do you run a single still or a stripping still and a spirit still? If single, do you do strips or just a single run? Also, what is your primary product? No judgements, just curious.bluefish_dist wrote:I currently have a 120 gallon still, with 85 gallon fermenters. I am adding 110 gallon fermenters, but another local distillery runs 300 gallon on both. That would be a lot nicer. If you are going cheap, 300 gal still and ibc tote fermenters will take you a long way.
Not going to post my break even here, but I would say $100 sale price per gallon is a decent price for budgeting. Less if you do three tier, then maybe $60/gallon gross.
- bluefish_dist
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
I run various configurations. For flavored spirits it's plates for a one and done. For vodka it's strip and finish. I have two stills and can configure both as columns or as pot stills. For columns I can run bubble, sieve, or packed.
Right now we have rum, vodka, moonshine, whiskey, and blue agave.
Right now we have rum, vodka, moonshine, whiskey, and blue agave.
Formerly
Dsp-CO-20051
Dsp-CO-20051
Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
If your state let's you sell cocktails and bottles out of your distillery,,I would definitely try and prioritize that part of your model.
That can also help relieve the pressure of waiting on your barrel aging program to mature.
That can also help relieve the pressure of waiting on your barrel aging program to mature.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
I think small distilleries are a lot like farming...it's an opportunity to make a small fortune.
Unfortunately you have to start with a large fortune.
The best advice i've heard is to triple check your math and cut your expectations in a half...then maybe half again.
Like most farmers too, best not to give up your day job.
Unfortunately you have to start with a large fortune.
The best advice i've heard is to triple check your math and cut your expectations in a half...then maybe half again.
Like most farmers too, best not to give up your day job.
I finally quit drinking for good.
now i drink for evil.
now i drink for evil.
- fortbuilder825
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
Sadly my state has utterly draconian laws on that, but I'm working with my State Senator to get them changed.LWTCS wrote:If your state let's you sell cocktails and bottles out of your distillery,,I would definitely try and prioritize that part of your model.
That can also help relieve the pressure of waiting on your barrel aging program to mature.
- fortbuilder825
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
Funny you should say that. I'm still teaching and farming as well. I'd be happy to give up the farming. I'd be ecstatic to give up teaching, but I'm not holding my breath.HDNB wrote:I think small distilleries are a lot like farming...it's an opportunity to make a small fortune.
Unfortunately you have to start with a large fortune.
The best advice i've heard is to triple check your math and cut your expectations in a half...then maybe half again.
Like most farmers too, best not to give up your day job.
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
[quote="LWTCS"]If your state let's you sell cocktails and bottles out of your distillery,,I would definitely try and prioritize that part of your model.
That can also help relieve the pressure of waiting on your barrel aging program to mature.[/quote
They do in Ohio, fortunately. That also allows you to be a destination location with bling.
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That can also help relieve the pressure of waiting on your barrel aging program to mature.[/quote
They do in Ohio, fortunately. That also allows you to be a destination location with bling.
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
And maybe the old financial maxim for farmers applies to distillers:
Marry a teacher or (like my son-in-law) a nurse!
Geoff
Marry a teacher or (like my son-in-law) a nurse!
Geoff
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- shadylane
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
Can't answer your question, but found a forum for Nano-distilleriesder wo wrote:How much smaller is a nano distillery than a micro distillery? And pico distilleries?
http://www.nanodistiller.org/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
- der wo
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
Thanks shady, I will ask there.shadylane wrote:Can't answer your question, but found a forum for Nano-distilleriesder wo wrote:How much smaller is a nano distillery than a micro distillery? And pico distilleries?
http://www.nanodistiller.org/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
Amen to that brother. I have read that every successful small business owner has one thing going common: they have all tried their hand at starting a business in the past.. and failed to some degree. That experience and the change in their expectations is what allowed them success on subsequent attempt number "X". I know from my own experience that there is truth to this.HDNB wrote:I think small distilleries are a lot like farming...it's an opportunity to make a small fortune.
Unfortunately you have to start with a large fortune.
The best advice i've heard is to triple check your math and cut your expectations in a half...then maybe half again.
Like most farmers too, best not to give up your day job.
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
Going common = in common .. friggin auto correct..
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
Having just gone through the development and opening of a micro distillery - allow me to offer a few words of advice...
Evey thing in the distillation business costs $5k - which in English means - even a small distillery will cost a shitload of money to get off the ground. No matter what anyone says - expect at least $500K. Mine cost $650k. Up, ever so slightly up from the cost of a used pick-up truck, I thought I could get away with in my early projections.
A small still sounds very attractive in the planning stages, but is as useless as tits on a bull in the heat of battle. That means, if your not processing at least a 1000 liters of pay dirt a week, you are falling behind.
Making booze at home is dead easy. Making booze for a demanding audience of a quality to bring them back? Really fucking hard.
Get thee to the cleanery! I've spent hours and hours cleaning. Not in the original fantasy at all! Do not under estimate the time you'll need to spend cleaning.
Grains of all kinds is wonderful stuff - but, it quickly becomes a hot sticky mess - please refer to the previous note.
Make sure you know where you are going to get rid of your spent grains. They pile up really fast and they quickly start to stink. The idea of a happy farmer feeding the spent to his pigs is great - but very hard to actually pull off with any consistency. I've found chickens to be better than pigs as efficient spent grain consumers.
Don't bother with partners. You will soon tire of them and they won't be nearly as helpful as they are helping you drink your shine.
Don't borrow money to build your distillery. Only borrow money for working capital and only if you know you have the sales. Otherwise, allow me to repeat. Don't borrow money - or - take money from investors. Unhappiness will ensue.
The paper work to get the licenses for a distillery is tough, but it's easy when compared to the ongoing day to day paperwork. Fall behind on that and you're dead.
All that being said, I am glad I took the risk and I expect in time I'll probably do alright.
Evey thing in the distillation business costs $5k - which in English means - even a small distillery will cost a shitload of money to get off the ground. No matter what anyone says - expect at least $500K. Mine cost $650k. Up, ever so slightly up from the cost of a used pick-up truck, I thought I could get away with in my early projections.
A small still sounds very attractive in the planning stages, but is as useless as tits on a bull in the heat of battle. That means, if your not processing at least a 1000 liters of pay dirt a week, you are falling behind.
Making booze at home is dead easy. Making booze for a demanding audience of a quality to bring them back? Really fucking hard.
Get thee to the cleanery! I've spent hours and hours cleaning. Not in the original fantasy at all! Do not under estimate the time you'll need to spend cleaning.
Grains of all kinds is wonderful stuff - but, it quickly becomes a hot sticky mess - please refer to the previous note.
Make sure you know where you are going to get rid of your spent grains. They pile up really fast and they quickly start to stink. The idea of a happy farmer feeding the spent to his pigs is great - but very hard to actually pull off with any consistency. I've found chickens to be better than pigs as efficient spent grain consumers.
Don't bother with partners. You will soon tire of them and they won't be nearly as helpful as they are helping you drink your shine.
Don't borrow money to build your distillery. Only borrow money for working capital and only if you know you have the sales. Otherwise, allow me to repeat. Don't borrow money - or - take money from investors. Unhappiness will ensue.
The paper work to get the licenses for a distillery is tough, but it's easy when compared to the ongoing day to day paperwork. Fall behind on that and you're dead.
All that being said, I am glad I took the risk and I expect in time I'll probably do alright.
Renaissance Man
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Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
Then theres some folks who jump in just to say they're pro.
Not ever having a product worthy of a following, not minding the money pit...
No news is bad news in the industry, as news equals progress and growth..No news, prolly no growth.
Bad news travels fast, good news travels faster.
Very hard, dedicated work..Not for the tender.
Not ever having a product worthy of a following, not minding the money pit...
No news is bad news in the industry, as news equals progress and growth..No news, prolly no growth.
Bad news travels fast, good news travels faster.
Very hard, dedicated work..Not for the tender.
*Spend it all, Use it up, Wear it out*
Beware of sheet-sniffers and dime-droppers!
Beware of sheet-sniffers and dime-droppers!
Re: Starting a (nano) distillery
The people I've met and dealt with in the alcohol/distillation business are serious players. I haven't met anyone who was doing this kind of work and spending their savings just so they could call themselves professional.
Very, very, very few people will ever start a distillery - even with thousands of people using this forum, only a handful, a tiny, tiny percentage of people are actually following this path. Why did I jump in? Well, I have close to 40 years experience working in and around the booze biz, I'm a skilled entrepreneur and I have the right temperament to deal with government bureaucracy. So it was a very intuitive transition.
Its a tough business, I'll be the first to admit, but all interesting businesses are tough. So if you are inclined to take a run at this biz, you probably will really enjoy the experience.
Very, very, very few people will ever start a distillery - even with thousands of people using this forum, only a handful, a tiny, tiny percentage of people are actually following this path. Why did I jump in? Well, I have close to 40 years experience working in and around the booze biz, I'm a skilled entrepreneur and I have the right temperament to deal with government bureaucracy. So it was a very intuitive transition.
Its a tough business, I'll be the first to admit, but all interesting businesses are tough. So if you are inclined to take a run at this biz, you probably will really enjoy the experience.
Renaissance Man
Licensed Craft Distiller
Licensed Craft Distiller