24 gallon electric bain marie

[shadylane]

I had trouble draining the spent mash made from chopped corn.
Even through a 2" gate valve, some of the liquid would drain but the spent corn wouldn't.
A mash made from ground up chopped corn drained out with very little problems.

[shadylane]

awesome awesome!

i kinda thought the steam injector (once i finally knew what you were doing) wouldn't really inject steam, since the mash is going to boil below 212.
the question rattling around the hollow space between my ears was-if there was enough surface area to strip the heat away from the water before it boiled away. apparently there is...
still, it's a helluva way to safely vent the water jacket to atmosphere, an not waste a nick of heat in the process.

color me agog with your ingenuity on this project!

The water in the jacket doesn't start to boil and inject steam, until the mash temp gets around 203-206ish
Once the mash gets hot enough that the surface area of the baine marie can no longer transfer the power from the heaters.
The water in the jacket will begin to boil and inject steam into the mash.

[jedneck]

Shady how much more efficient would it be if the inner jacket was copper? I'm always planning/thinking about my next build.

[shadylane]

I don't know, but copper conducts heat better than SS.

[still_stirrin]

I don't know, but copper conducts heat better than SS.

....which would transfer the heat to the mash quicker, further delaying the onset of steam production...right? It would exacerbate the condition.

It would seem that secondary steam generation is appropriate if you are trying to inject steam without boiling the mash prior to the addition.
ss

[shadylane]

The mash starts boiling around 200f. The heat transferred from the water jacket can get the mash boiling, without the water boiling itself. After some of the alcohol has boiled off and the mash temp rises, there's not enough temp difference between the water jacket and mash to effectively transfer heat. This is the reason a bain marie doesn't work very well as a boiler, without high pressure steam.
Direct injection of low pressure steam will heat mash to boiling easily, but will be diluting the mash with condensed water from the very beginning.
In this design the mash is heated to boiling by the water jacket, once the heat transfer decreases, the water in the jacket begins to boil and inject the steam into the mash. The advantage is the mash can be efficiently heated up to 212f with little drama, no thumper rattling and knocking and with minimum dilution.
It would seem to me using copper like Jeb suggested would increase the bain marie efficiency, that would let the mash boil a little bit longer, before the steam injection kicked in.

[MichiganCornhusker]

It would seem to me using copper like Jeb suggested would increase the bain marie efficiency, that would let the mash boil a little bit longer, before the steam injection kicked in.

I was wondering the same thing. Figured the copper would help with heat transfer.
But your setup seems to work so well with all stainless that I'm not sure the difference would be worth any additional effort or cost.
But because your not just using the rig for distillation, the other thing to consider is how well copper would be suited to being used as the vessel for mashing and fermentation.
Stainless seems like a great choice for that, but what are the pros and cons of copper? Any reasons to prefer on over the other?

[shadylane]

SS is stronger and stiffer.
I wouldn't want to pressurize a copper vessel more than a couple inches of water-pressure.

[yakattack]

Copper wouldn't last as long due to ph changes. But it would still have a long service life. If you were forming your own using a keg as the outer boiler then using copper would be my choice. 15 gallon keg would hold a 10-12 gallon copper pot no problem. Mods would actually be pretty easy. But then again you could probably find a ss stock pot that would fit well and you would just need to fab a cap lid.

Yak

[shadylane]

If you were forming your own using a keg as the outer boiler then using copper would be my choice. 15 gallon keg would hold a 10-12 gallon copper pot no problem. Mods would actually be pretty easy. But then again you could probably find a ss stock pot that would fit well and you would just need to fab a cap lid.

Yak

That is a good idea. Got me to thinking and drawing
Since the keg will have the top off and you can get your hands inside.
Bulkhead and threaded fittings could be used.

[yakattack]

I'm in the process of design. Between you an me I think this is going to become a pretty widely used hobby sized hybrid boiler. Hell I may even do the fab work and sell em. Pipe dreams I know but hay who knows.

Yak

[pythonshine]

I can give you a hand with that.

[yakattack]

My doctors have been trying to help me for years.. what makes you think you can do better :p

[pythonshine]

Your doc doesn't prescribe copious amounts of good likkker!

[yakattack]

Shady. How is the water seal working for you? How much loss due to evaporating and how do you deal with it? Thinking this may be a better option than welding down my lid. Thoughts?

[MichiganCornhusker]

What if you turned it inside out?
I agree that thin copper sheet might not hold up to the pressure of water around it, but what if the copper vessel held the water, and the ring around it held the mash?
If my afternoon math is close, a stainless pot 24" dia, 24" tall, with a copper pot inside of it, 16" dia, 24" tall would put you in the ballpark of 25 gallon capacity in the 4" space between the copper pot and the outside ss wall.
By having the mash surround the hot water, only 4" thick, would this also help with heat transfer, heating the mash more consistently? Again, not sure how this would affect mashing and fermenting.
Just tossing spitballs.

[yakattack]

Mch. You've lost me mate. Any chance.for a visual?

[MichiganCornhusker]

Mch. You've lost me mate. Any chance.for a visual?

Same as Shady's existing rig, except you would be heating the center pot with water in it, and putting your mash in the outside space, the space he is using now for the water.

[yakattack]

Mch you are a bloody genius. Let me get some sketchs together over the next few days. That may have just made this even easier for future builds.

[raketemensch]

I like it, we can call it a Marie Bain...

[yakattack]

I'm envisioning it a bit different then mch but that's because I am designing a build around a keg as that is the most common hobby size boiler. Damit. I need a laptop or tablet with me. I'm in strat ford again with nothing. Dam.

Mch. Your water vessel (where the water is heated) in the current setup only really requires a few gallons of water as the baine marie portion tags care of most of the run.

With a smaller surface area I'm wondering if we would see that same efficiency. Let me get the sketches together shortly might hit a store after I shower for a sketch pad. And clean cloths.

[shadylane]

Shady. How is the water seal working for you? How much loss due to evaporating and how do you deal with it? Thinking this may be a better option than welding down my lid. Thoughts?

The water seal works fine. The level stays fairly constant, Any excess water in the seal drains to the inside and back into the pot. But towards the end of the run, alcohol contaminates the water and it begins to gently boil. I can add some water and it will stop for awhile. I think I need to trim the lip on the pot so the lid rests on the inner lip. I left the lip on the lid a little too long, figured I could trim it if needed

[yakattack]

If I did a water seal it would have to be on the outside. What are your thoughts on that?

[shadylane]

Mch. You've lost me mate. Any chance.for a visual?

Same as Shady's existing rig, except you would be heating the center pot with water in it, and putting your mash in the outside space, the space he is using now for the water.

You got me head scratching and drawing.
One problem is how to configure the heaters on a Marie Bain

[shadylane]

If I did a water seal it would have to be on the outside. What are your thoughts on that?

You mean like this?

[yakattack]

Shady. Here is what I am picturing. Invert keg. (2 inch on bottom) 4 inch on top (previous bottom. )

2-4 inch pipe welded inside attached to the 2 inch furrel. This will be where the element goes in. Allow a few cross tubes coming off of the main tube and then 2 half inch sections coming up to the top and back into the mash. Heating water in an enclosed (but open to atmosphere ) pipe from the center.

This could be mostly done with triclamp fittings aND some interesting solder joints. )

No dealing with lids or extra seals. Figure make the pipe in center able to hold 3 gallons making a 15 gallon boiler into a ten that can run on the grain. Allowing a drain port without going through a double wall. Run on the grain with no pressure issues and still be a combo baine marie /steam injection.

Labour for the build. 3 hours if everything is there ready to go.

I will be ordering the parts to do this as soon as I have the funds.

[shadylane]

Sorry brother, but I'm in my cups and can't picture what you saying.
Can you draw me a picture

[yakattack]

Ummm. Maybe. Let me see if I can find paper. I'm out of town with only my phone.

Yak

[yakattack]

I will draw it out sober tomorrow

[shadylane]

Here's a thought for making a simple water seal, on a copper pot, that fits inside a keg with the top cut off.
Hope yall can figure out what I'm thinking