Corn Conversion Woes...

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Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Soo....

I have come along way since I started mashing corn late last year.

I started with only about 25% conversion efficiency.
Fast forward past a few scorched batches and low yield attempts, and now I'm up to about 70% efficiency.

I seem to have hit a road block.

I am using tap water. Early on I identified dead water as the culprit.
I learned that Amylase needs calcium ions in order to maintain a healthy conversion off starch into dextrose.

So I started adding gypsum, calcium carbonate, and Epsom salts to my mash water. I noticed rather quickly that my efficiency seemed to go up in direct proportion to the amount of salts I added (mostly the Calcium Carbonate)
I also started adjusting my pH down to around 4-5 to help the corn starches gelatanize (using backset or lemon juice when backset was unavailable).

So here's the issue.
I lower pH to the target, then when I add the calcium carbonate it brings my pH back up again. So I will try and lower it some more.
All is well, until after the mash takes place. It would seem that once the enzymatic activity uses all the needed calcium ions that they are no longer available to raise pH. So consequently, the mash process causes my pH to drop rather significantly leaving me with a rather low pH for fermentation.

I don't think oyster shells are a good option here cause they don't work very quickly and id like an ideal pH right at the beggining of the ferment. But I digress...

The rub is, I dont know if I should continue upping the ammount of calcium carbonate in my mash water to chase a better conversion efficiency, or if pH is the culprit to begin with...
I was at a homebrew shop today and they sold me some Calcium Chloride to use as a source of calcium ions. They said that the Calcium chloride will help initially lower the pH rather than raise it.

My last mash:
10 gal water
2 gal backset
25lbs coarse corn meal
8tsp gypsum
8tsp Epsom
4tsp Calcium Carbonate

-Boil mash water, backset and mash salts.
-dump hot mash water over corn and mix thoroughly. (This achieves a total temp of ~192f)
-allow to sit till 180f, then add 2tsp of HTL Amylase
-allow to set a couple hours and bring temp to 140f, then add GL GlucoAmylase.
-wrap in a blanket and let 12 hours.

So this protocol net me an SG of only 1.058. That's just under 70% efficient.

I'd really like to be around 85-90%.

I'm mostly curious about whether or not anyone has used Calcium Chloride and what your thoughts on it are?

But any tips or advice actually based on science (meaning, I don't care how your grandpappy did it, unless he was a chemist) will be appreciated.
Last edited by Hillbilly Popstar on Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

sounds like its not cooking enough.
its better to think like a fool but keep your mouth shut,then to open ur mouth and have it confirmed
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Gelatinaztion of corn starch happens well under 190f.

My approach will keep the corn at 190 for at least 3-4 hours.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Pikey »

Does the iodine test say you have starch left in the mash or not ?
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Lol, hold on...
...let me put my flame suit on.

..................

I dont have an iodine test kit.

I use this website to determine how compete my conversions are.
http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Pikey »

You can probably get iodine at the chemist (Pharmacy) - That's all you need, but it would be handy to know if you're not converting all the starch. If you Are converting it all, then you're not getting it all out, or converting it to non-fermentables, which should show in your final gravity.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

A. Is it possibly that my corn just has less starch per lb than the flaked corn used in the brewhouse efficiency calculator?
Therefore the figures would be bloated?
&
B. How would the same basic alpha Amylase and gluco Amylase enzymes convert the starches to non fermentables?
I mean, I always finish down to .996, so I dont think that's the problem for me. But, how can that even happen?
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Skipper1953 »

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:
I don't think oyster shells are a good option here cause they don't work very quickly and id like an ideal pH right at the beggining of the ferment. But I digress...
I pulverize my oyster shells by running them through my corn grinder. They fizz when I put them into my fermenter.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Interesting. I may try that.

What kind grinder do you have?
I have a stone grinder and wpuld be worried the shells might chip the stones.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Pikey »

Just throw them in Ca CO3 (Oyster shell / Limestone / Marble) isn't a huge stopper ! :lol:
Gypsum CaS04 is cool :)
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

x2 skipper.
i put mine in a paint strainer bag and reuse
and ur right.
they fizz like hell
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Skipper1953 »

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:Interesting. I may try that.

What kind grinder do you have?
I have a stone grinder and wpuld be worried the shells might chip the stones.
look here:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p7376542
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Nice!
I have a Magic Mill
https://www.google.com/search?q=magic+m ... gsQuIIBCCM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Truckinbutch »

Coarse grind corn meal is a flag for me . Grind your meal as fine as you can get it and cook the hell out of it . If you don't cook the starches out to begin with you got nothing to convert .
I fail to have all the answers . Nevertheless , everyone that's been here says I make a decent drop .
Don't overcomplicate it on the getgo . You will drive yourself away from the hobby before you give it and yourself a chance .
Use a basic start and improve from there .
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by BayouShine »

Isn't mashing with river water fun? :evil:

I use calcium carbonate, calcium chloride, gypsum and salt to get things balanced out where I am. I'll send you a list of quantities when I figure out what pm I put them in. I've been using lactic acid to make pH adjustments for my corn addition and to get my mash pH right. It's critical if you're using the liquid enzymes.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

The way I see it you can approach your corn from a couple different directions.

One way is well suited for the lazy man.
Just pour boiling water on cracked corn, use high temp enzymes, and insulate.
Sound like this is what you're doing and if you want higher OG just add more corn, easy.

If you want better efficiency you need to work a little harder but not much.
Grind the corn to flour, heat to boiling with high temp enzymes, and run a mixer for for a while, maybe an hour or two.
Still pretty easy and you will see better yield.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by HDNB »

put your HTL in at 192, they will survive. you really only need 90minutes, maybe 1/2 dose at 192, the other half at 185* it won't pick up much after that 90 mins...some, not a lot.

like butch sez, grind it fine. that makes a huge diff.

also, HTL favours 6ish Ph, i don't know why you'd yo-yo the Ph so much. starting at 7ish adding grain and cooking makes it just about perfect for HTL.....HTL conversion lowers just about perfect for GL...GL makes it just right for yeast. add the backset max 10% AFTER the HTL is done. put the buffer shells in AFTER the GL is done, before yeast.

remember HTL just releases (liquifies) the starch...it's the GL that does the heavy lifting, severing the bonds to get it sweet. GL take longer too, hold 148 for a number of hours if you can. I usually go overnight.

if you finish .996 unfermentables ain't a problem. GL works good.

oh yeah, a LOT of stirring helps too.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Problem with a finer grind if trying to salvage a distillable wash after the ferment.

I gringd already cracked corn, so when I say a coarse corn meal take that as about 70% corn flour with the other 30% in chunks about 1/3 the size it started as. Id post a pic, but I aint figgered out how to resize em yet.

But even with a grind like that, the finer corn starches run right through a paint strainer bag in the mop wringer.
So I dont see much use of gaining that extra 15-20% in efficiency if I'm left with 2 gallons of wash I cant distill without scorching it in the boiler.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

HDNB wrote:put your HTL in at 192, they will survive. you really only need 90minutes, maybe 1/2 dose at 192, the other half at 185* it won't pick up much after that 90 mins...some, not a lot.

like butch sez, grind it fine. that makes a huge diff.

also, HTL favours 6ish Ph, i don't know why you'd yo-yo the Ph so much. starting at 7ish adding grain and cooking makes it just about perfect for HTL.....HTL conversion lowers just about perfect for GL...GL makes it just right for yeast. add the backset max 10% AFTER the HTL is done. put the buffer shells in AFTER the GL is done, before yeast.

remember HTL just releases (liquifies) the starch...it's the GL that does the heavy lifting, severing the bonds to get it sweet. GL take longer too, hold 148 for a number of hours if you can. I usually go overnight.

if you finish .996 unfermentables ain't a problem. GL works good.

oh yeah, a LOT of stirring helps too.
+1
That is pretty much my protocol. I grind everything to flour. I used to check ph, but now it will be what it will be. Flour grind doesn't hurt me as I ferment and strip on the grain. I tend to get 90%-92% brewhouse efficiency when using SEB enzymes.

If I don't use external enzymes (just mash in malt at 145°F), my efficiency is a bit lower (86% - 88%), but I think that I tend to get more grain flavor.

Either way, I believe that grinding to flour, temperature control, and continuous stirring over a long mash time are the keys to good conversion. You should check ph at each step in your process until you can repeat it every time. After that, if you don't change process, just go for it.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by BayouShine »

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:Problem with a finer grind if trying to salvage a distillable wash after the ferment.

I gringd already cracked corn, so when I say a coarse corn meal take that as about 70% corn flour with the other 30% in chunks about 1/3 the size it started as. Id post a pic, but I aint figgered out how to resize em yet.

But even with a grind like that, the finer corn starches run right through a paint strainer bag in the mop wringer.
So I dont see much use of gaining that extra 15-20% in efficiency if I'm left with 2 gallons of wash I cant distill without scorching it in the boiler.
I use corn meal exclusively. 2 paint strainer bags and a mop wringer and I'll get back roughly 9 of my 10 gallons of water. It squeezes out amazingly well. If you're really worried about scorching, squeeze it, let it settle and siphon off the top.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

BayouShine wrote:
Hillbilly Popstar wrote:Problem with a finer grind if trying to salvage a distillable wash after the ferment.

I gringd already cracked corn, so when I say a coarse corn meal take that as about 70% corn flour with the other 30% in chunks about 1/3 the size it started as. Id post a pic, but I aint figgered out how to resize em yet.

But even with a grind like that, the finer corn starches run right through a paint strainer bag in the mop wringer.
So I dont see much use of gaining that extra 15-20% in efficiency if I'm left with 2 gallons of wash I cant distill without scorching it in the boiler.
I use corn meal exclusively. 2 paint strainer bags and a mop wringer and I'll get back roughly 9 of my 10 gallons of water. It squeezes out amazingly well. If you're really worried about scorching, squeeze it, let it settle and siphon off the top.
That's pretty much the same for me.

My last batch was 10 gallons of mash water. After squeezing I got 9.5 gallons of liquid.

Only problem is even after I let that settle I was left with about 2 gallons of yeasty/starchy slurry that I tried to run in the still, but it was too thick to not scorch. I even racked the clear fluid off the top and left the slurry to settle another two days and it didnt help much.
A half gallon of loss I could accept, but nearly 2 gallons is too much.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

If you can afford it, I would recommend building a thumper. Put your clear beer in the boiler and the "slop" in the thumper and use the clear beer to steam distill the slop. No squeezing required, just let the ferment settle. Easy Peasy.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Pikey »

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:A. Is it possibly that my corn just has less starch per lb than the flaked corn used in the brewhouse efficiency calculator?
Therefore the figures would be bloated?
&
B. How would the same basic alpha Amylase and gluco Amylase enzymes convert the starches to non fermentables?
I mean, I always finish down to .996, so I dont think that's the problem for me. But, how can that even happen?
If you're getting 0.996, you're fermenting any available sugars, so either you're not gettin all the starch out or you're not converting some starch. Iodine test will tell you which.

Talk of acidity at 0.996 is a total red herring.

There is much discussion of unfermantables on other threads - basically down to temperatures of malt pitching - but at 0.996 it doesn't apply.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

RedwoodHillBilly wrote:If you can afford it, I would recommend building a thumper. Put your clear beer in the boiler and the "slop" in the thumper and use the clear beer to steam distill the slop. No squeezing required, just let the ferment settle. Easy Peasy.
This might be the most practical suggestion yet.
Ive been wanting to build a thumper for a while now. This is just more motivation to do so.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Pikey wrote:
Talk of acidity at 0.996 is a total red herring.
Not if I want quicker ferments.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:
RedwoodHillBilly wrote:If you can afford it, I would recommend building a thumper. Put your clear beer in the boiler and the "slop" in the thumper and use the clear beer to steam distill the slop. No squeezing required, just let the ferment settle. Easy Peasy.
This might be the most practical suggestion yet.
Ive been wanting to build a thumper for a while now. This is just more motivation to do so.
:thumbup:
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by HDNB »

thumper for sure, or re-use the lees in the next ferment...with all the yeast in there it will make a great starter.
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

HDNB wrote:thumper for sure, or re-use the lees in the next ferment...with all the yeast in there it will make a great starter.
This is also a great idea.
Cheers!
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

this is what i did
you will love it
old tech
but alot more practical
its better to think like a fool but keep your mouth shut,then to open ur mouth and have it confirmed
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Re: Corn Conversion Woes...

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Truckinbutch wrote:Coarse grind corn meal is a flag for me . Grind your meal as fine as you can get it and cook the hell out of it . If you don't cook the starches out to begin with you got nothing to convert .
I fail to have all the answers . Nevertheless , everyone that's been here says I make a decent drop .
Don't overcomplicate it on the getgo . You will drive yourself away from the hobby before you give it and yourself a chance .
Use a basic start and improve from there .
For the record, I make excellent corn whiskey.

But this post is about efficiency.
Please don't misunderstand. I never said I was having a hard time making good drop.

I just want to maximize the ammount of drop I produce for the ammount of time I put in.

Efficiency and quality are two different things.
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