Jimbo's Electric Conversion

[Swedish Pride]

Thanks for the input lads, much appreciated.
Even though I do basic home wiring myself (plugs, sockets, light, etc) I'm still bricking it a bit about the 30 A plug, leaning towards a 3000 W element instead, I think I rather have a long heat up time over feeling nervous about a cable connection I made.

But will not rush in to any decisions yet, will have a ponder for the next few days.

[HDNB]

with your controller and an ammeter you can dial in the current consumption where you want.

i run my 2" diamter at 14A heat up and 7A during the run, on a 5500w element. anything more just causes problems anyway. It's nice to have the headroom, i'll go full smoke (21A) to boil straight water...but during a run it's too risky to scorch or overrun the condensor, and the flavour seems to change with take off rate too.

i tried to learn about how your voltage works there but i haven't found the right site yet...so i'm not sure how they are making 230 to ground there. in north america it's a simple thing; a 240v sine wave, ground in the middle of it so you have 120v on the top half of the wave, (hot phase 1) and 120v on the bottom half of the wave (hot phase2), relative to ground at 0 reference. connect the peak to the trough and there's your 240v.


the other thing i can tell you is here, electrical parts are under-rated. That is, they have a large amount of safety headroom built into the rating. if it says 13A, it can do it all day long....and will take significant over-current for a period of time before failing...the question is how much overcurrent, for how long....so it's always best to practice safety within the ratings, to avoid letting the factory smoke out.

there is a couple of european electrical engineers here on the site so maybe one of them will see this and tell you exactly what you need to do.

[Jimbo]

i run my 2" diamter at 14A heat up and 7A during the run, on a 5500w element. anything more just causes problems anyway. It's nice to have the headroom, i'll go full smoke (21A) to boil straight water...but during a run it's too risky to scorch or overrun the condensor, and the flavour seems to change with take off rate too.

Yup, I only go full tits to boil water too. With my pot I go 4000W to strip and 2000W for spirit. With the flute I start at 3000W and work up to 4000W toward the end. 13 gallons of beer has a nice rolling boil at 3000W

[Swedish Pride]

with your controller and an ammeter you can dial in the current consumption where you want.

Yeah I'm considering that as well, Just get one of these
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/UPDATED-DC-0-30A ... 2a536c3091" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And just run it at 12A the most.

Also after thinking a bit on it, I don't think that if I go over 13A anything will happen to the board, see the plugs here have a 13A fuse built in to them, so if anything that should pop first and then I know I went over the top... In theory, not saying I'll try to blow that fuse to see if it works as intended, but a second safety net in such.

[Anthoney]

The fuse will work as intended. If you are still worried add a curcuit breaker and or switch up to 32a blue euro connectors like the ones I use. You can see them in my 32A (UK) build thread.

[Anthoney]

Just read back a page. Your wire is presumably 2.5mm twin and earth. It is 16a becuase your sockets should be wired in a ring and the power goes both ways giving you 32a. We call it a ring main. Your house is then, presumably, correctly and safely wired and your breaker is conservatively small. Usually they are 30a on any ring main. Make sure you have a ring. There should be two live wires coming off the output of the breaker. Not the one that feeds the breaker. One at one end (live feed) two at the other (ring). Do not touch the feed to the breaker. This will prolly be a brass bar that feeds them all so not too hard to see what's what. The feed will be along the bottom of the breakers and the ring will come out of the top. Pull the breaker. Remove one of the two wires. Use an ohmmeter to check the two wires are in fact still connected with each other. Ergo a ring. Put it back as it was but replace the 20a breaker with a 30a. You then need to replace one of the sockets in your ring main with a wall mounted 32a socket. The one next to where you still obviously. They sometimes call them commando sockets for reasons that elude me. Put a 32a trailing plug on your controller and you are good to go. Otherwise you will be limited to just over 3kw by your 13a fuse.

[Swedish Pride]

Thanks Antony

I had to read that 5 times to understand it, but now i do get it, just need to get a ohm meter, or hook it up to the cooker.

[Anthoney]

Glad you got it. It's always a balance between being even more long winded than I already am and trying to be clear and unambiguous. As it will be a dead circuit you are testing, any kind of continuity tester will do. I just assumed you had a multimeter with an ohms range. Sorry. A torch bulb and a 9v battery might do. There will be a volt drop from the length of circuit but enough should get through to produce at least a dim glow. I assume you have already verified that the breaker does have two lives coming off it? 99.9% chance they are a ring main but best to be 100% even though the wiring sounds standard for the job. At least you know your house is properly and safely wired. Just different from our american brethren.

[rad14701]

Glad you got it. It's always a balance between being even more long winded than I already am and trying to be clear and unambiguous. As it will be a dead circuit you are testing, any kind of continuity tester will do. I just assumed you had a multimeter with an ohms range. Sorry. A torch bulb and a 9v battery might do. There will be a volt drop from the length of circuit but enough should get through to produce at least a dim glow. I assume you have already verified that the breaker does have two lives coming off it? 99.9% chance they are a ring main but best to be 100% even though the wiring sounds standard for the job. At least you know your house is properly and safely wired. Just different from our american brethren.

Anyone who doesn't have a complete understanding of how the electricity in their home/apartment/barn/garage works shouldn't be playing with it at all...!!! Either a person is competent enough to dabble with electricity or they should leave it up to someone who is or an electrician... Providing vague advice is dangerous at best, and deadly as a worst case scenario... We don't need vague advice here... Just sayin...

[Danespirit]

with your controller and an ammeter you can dial in the current consumption where you want.

Yeah I'm considering that as well, Just get one of these
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/UPDATED-DC-0-30A ... 2a536c3091" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And just run it at 12A the most.

Also after thinking a bit on it, I don't think that if I go over 13A anything will happen to the board, see the plugs here have a 13A fuse built in to them, so if anything that should pop first and then I know I went over the top... In theory, not saying I'll try to blow that fuse to see if it works as intended, but a second safety net in such.

Not to be mr. Wiseguy here, but you realize this amperemeter you looked at is a DC ..?
Household current in Europe is AC.
Now i am no electrician, but some basic things i can sort out.
Just sayin before you throw money on the counter for a useless apperature.
I also bought one..15 A AC, which is more than enough for my 10 A fuse i have coming of the powerbox.

[Anthoney]

Well there is that place between competent and ignorant where you learn to go from one to the other. Isn't that what forums are for?

I am competent with our power and have a better understanding of what is going on in SPs house than the people giving advice who are unfamiliar with our system and thought his house was misswired somehow.

I agree specific advice is best. That's why I'm usually long winded and took the trouble this time to describe how our breaker boxes are configured. Including a warning of which bits not to touch. Knowing what SPs circuit is and how it works and will look to him I gave what I consider to be clear but simple instructions. Easy enough that SP did understand but no steps or safety warnings left out. I do assume that anyone planning to distill ethanol is capable of learning and following step by step instruction. Otherwise they are doomed one way or another. I don't understand which part you thought was vague? The simple continuity tester to check the ring is properly wired? I thought the concept of continuity was so basic it was obvious from the instructions given. If i'm missing some vagueness in my description I would be grateful to have it pointed out as it should be clarified to avoid danger. I don't hold the detail back in my own threads but try to be more concise in other peoples. Please explain where I have overdone that and what specifically is vague?. I cant see it myself so would appreciate the insight. Thank you.

[HDNB]

so i'm trying to move from ignorant to enlightened. The last couple posts seem to be venturing into misunderstanding land...Just so folks don't misread my question:

I get Rad's suggestion of if you don't know what it does don't fuck with it...because electricity will kill you.

and i wouldn't feel too bad about misreading an ad for DC instead of AC, or not even noticing. it was nice to point out it was not the right meter but the method of delivery on that message...comes across a bit harsh Danespirit.

so with all respect, because i am neither electrician nor electrical engineer (but am fairly proficient at wiring and the understanding of the free flow of electrons) i pose this question:

Anthoney -is this what your suggestion is from a schematic veiw? because this (crude) image is what i got from it...and that would never fly in the north american building codes... i can't see how you could make a 32A cct out of this, as the electricty would take the easiest (shortest) path until it got hot enough to fail; the other side failing shortly (pun hee hee) thereafter. i'm sure the additional conductor would make a bit more headroom but how much? surely not double?

[Swedish Pride]

This kicked off a lively discussion didn't it

I decided to KISS and got a male+ female commando plugs, going to hook it up to the stove feed and be done with it, as simple as it comes really.
And the cable will hind behind the kitchen unit kick-board when not in use so little risk of the kids licking it.

Thanks for the input lads, would have done a half arsed solution without your input, and I would never have found the UK/IRE name for those plugs without your input Andrew.

[Danespirit]

Sorry if my answer came over that way HDNB.
I had no intention of giving a rude answer and wouldn't have interfered in this thread, if i hadn't stumbled across this design flaw.
That's also why i wrote "Not to be mr. Wiseguy"...
My skills with electric/electronic things are not on professional level, which i also wrote.
It was merely my intention to save Swedish Pride from buying the wrong item.

[HDNB]

glad were all still friends, i'm just trying to get a better understanding of the power there and i'm not quite getting it.

when i google "how does 230v work in europe" i get info in how to plug in a hair dryer.

wikipedia helps a bit, but damn... a schematic picture would help a lot. SP, you may want to heed this info from wiki-p on the stove wiring: "In northern and central Europe, residential electrical supply is commonly 400 V three-phase electric power, which gives 230 V between any phase and neutral; house wiring is then a mix of three-phase and single-phase circuits. High-power appliances such as kitchen stoves, water heaters and maybe household power heavy tools like log splitters can then be supplied from the 400 V three-phase power supply."

edit: found this: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?tit ... _Beginners" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

nomenclature makes all the difference. i've never seen a "ring cct" pretty sure they are not allowed here. all our stuff is "radial" and "branch" by your names.
your lighting circuit is called a "switch leg" here, and is not really practiced anymore. light switches are now "neutral present" so we can use fancy dimmers for exotic lighting solutions.

anyway, hope that link helps, it cleared up a lot for me.

[bearriver]

For what it is worth, I bought a large electrical book from a bog box hardware store before building my controller. It took a few days to read and was well worth it. I learned a great deal about the electricity in my home and got an overall understanding of what I wanted to do.

[sltm1]

I've had some enlightening discussion with Danespirit about electricity and his advice is sound....but always check with a local professional electrician about what your IN WALL WIRING CAN HANDLE as well as what you can do to tweak your box. I found out that running a 20amp breaker on 14/2 will not support a 1500w element safely (at least according to code). Could have been a costly if not fatal mistake if the house caught fire.

[Swedish Pride]

I found this

From this site
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?tit ... _Beginners" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow.

As far as 3 phase goes, that's usually 5 cable strands in a 3 phase cable right?
I was there when they fitted the stove feed, used to be gas but we wanted electric, and it's definitely only a 3 stand cable, ground neutral and live.
I know this as I fitted the stove top to the oven part after the electrician was gone.

I know the site is from UK, but we do what they do in many walks of life, house standards being one of them.

Good advice Bear, I'll have a look for a book to expand on my knowledge on the subject.

[Jimbo]

For what it is worth, I bought a large electrical book from a big box hardware store before building my controller.

Thats sound advice. I tell you what, hooking up high voltage, high current devices through a dicey cheaply made Chinese electronic device and flipping the switch is an ass puckering experience. My career is working with electricity and it still scared the shit out of me flipping the breaker the first time. Just be confident in what your doing, read up as much as you need to feel comfortable, then TRIPLE check all your connections and wiring for correctness, stray shorts etc. I have 2 of these SCR's and they both been going strong for countless multi hour sessions. knock wood.

[Anthoney]

I think moving from ignorance is what we are all share in common. It's the reason forums exist. Misunderstanding? Quite possibly. Rad could have been patting me on the back and telling me not to worry about being longwinded. Clarity is better than brevity. Ironically his comment was a bit vague lol. I might have felt a bit sensitive because I had just finished writing the most detailed explanation of the relationship between our potentiometers and our phase angle controllers on this site or any other I have seen. Data, tables, graphs etc. in my own power controler thread. I showed how we should be sizing our pots for better resolution and to not waste pot track. BigSwede did a similar thing already and I reference his work and explain in more detail what is going on. My method is only slightly more linear than his but I do certainly go into more detail. Read it, tell me what you think. Being characterised as some vague character did ruffle my feathers a little bit. Of all the things I am that's not it. And of course is there is some vagueness I have missed I really do want it pointed out. Never too good to get better. I expect it is mostly just the differences in our standard practices that created the confusion. Also it was late and although sober I was tired which is not when I am at my best.

Your diagram is almost right. As well as the live being looped the neutral and earth are as well. As you have it the neutral would overheat, not the live. Literally almost all the grid wired homes in the uk are wired with a ring main. It's standard and has been all of my life and before. The relevant theory from my teen years would be one of Kirchoffs laws. Basically when current has two paths to flow down it uses them both equally. All other things being equal. It only takes the shortest path when one short circuits the other. In a ring main the different length live legs on either side of any given socket have negligable difference in resistance. Not enough to cause the power to favour one path over the other. So yes, it flows equally down both paths to the socket, through the device and then equally through both neutrals. Simples. I didn't mention the neutrals and earth to SP becuase they are a given if he has a ring main. To be honest I am sure he has just from the wire and breaker sizes he gave me. His wire would be a weaker link than his breaker otherwise. And it is the standard wire used for ring mains. 2.5mm twin and earth. We derate a bit for safety and usually put a 30a breaker in rather than a 32a. But 32a would be ok and can be used safely. 20a is way conservative and unusual to see on mains socket rings. I just thought that having SP do a simple continuity check would a) be better safe than sorry in case some bodger did miswire his house b) be a learning experience for him that could only add to his ability to understand and stay safe. I started that stage when I was nine or ten, did some basic electronics at high school, and did most of my formal theory after I left high school at 16. Normal age over here or used to be until very recently. Was 13 before that. Only 150 years ago. Forgotten the bulk of it of course. A great many sleeps since then. Sadly I am old now. Happily I didn't die already. Bit of a paradox really.

SP remember these blue euro sockets have no fuse. If you overload the cooker spur you wil trip the breaker at the mains board. You might consider adding a suitable breaker to your power controller to save you the walk. A spur is a straight connection using thicker wire. Not a ring. Only used over here for single or double outlets. Mains board to specific fixed device type wiring. Cookers, showers an the like.

[Anthoney]

I never fall out over misunderstandings. They happen. What's important is talking past them to understanding and continuing to learn. For me anyway. To me a ring main is second nature and obvious just as your system is to you. It is important to remember we work with different systems.

Bear is right. A big book of housewiring is good background reading and everyone should do that for their local standards.

We don't usually have three phase in our domestic homes. Only industrial and agricturural. I do but I live industrial. Now it has five wires but older instalations can have four or three, both plus an earth by the steel wire armour of the cable or steel conduit. Bad practice as rust could compromise the neutral/earth.

[Danespirit]

The following picture shows the wiring diagram for European and North american, if it can be at any help.
It's from a electrical engineering site, so it should be valid.

[Jimbo]

Dane,

There is no 3 phase residential in NA. Industrial only. Residential is 240 Single phase, split to 120V circuits for household plugs, and 240 for electric dryers, A/C etc.

[Edwin Croissant]

There is a Wikipedia article about ring circuits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit.
The first time I encountered this system was with an imported static caravan from the UK. Ring mains? Two wires ending into one circuit breaker? WTF

[Jimbo]

Very odd indeed. Its really no different than taking 2 separate wires/circuits and sharing a breaker, something that is not legal in the US. Current takes the path of least resistance, so current will flow on whichever leg of the loop is closest to the circuit in use. The combined still cant exceed the breaker tho so if mom and daughter are both blow drying their hair in different bathrooms on 2 sides of the loop, pop.

[Anthoney]

Hmm. It's not really the same as two seperate circuits even though two wires end up in the same breaker. It is a loop so electrically it is one circuit getting power from both ends. Edwins link is the best explanation of the pros and cons of ring versus radial. We had radial at first but we switched to ring just after the last world war. It does work and work safely. We have decades of experience to prove that the practice is not the same as the theory you are assuming. Remember every plug is fused 13a, 5a or 3a. Basicly it saves large amounts of copper over the radial system. One day we may all use rings to conserve the finite resource. Or the planet might kill us. Dunno. It is true the whole ring is limited to the breaker but it would take a lot more than a couple of hairdriers to blow a 30a or 32a breaker. In practice we don't have much in the way of breaker problems and many homeowners are blissfully unaware of their existance. But they can change a plug fuse. It just works. Homeheating is most often gas central heating nowadays. TVs are flat panel low energy. Cookers and showers have their own radial. We have more than one ring in a house. Usually one for each floor plus maybe a seperate one for the kitchen. For me the advantage is that you can add any number of sockets in convenient locations around the ring for the same wiring. Of course you can't load them all up at once. But it is nice to never be too far from one when you need it. Sockets are cheap. Wire is not.

[Jimbo]

Certainly nothing wrong with efficiency and conservation. Still dont see how it saves wire tho. If you want a plug at some particular location in your house. Youll have a wire from it, to your breaker box, regardless. I could draw a house with plugs all over it. And with loops, or snipping the loop into 2 wires it doesnt change the amount of wire in the house, if anything it lengthens the amount of wire, to extend the loop from one area to another. Anyway, whatever, it does cut the numbers of breakers in half tho, and reduce the size of the breaker box.

[Anthoney]

But we might have half a dozen or more sockets on the loop. Thats a lot of radials running back to the box instead of just two. Read the link if you want to understand it better. It explains it better than me. Saving coper is it's biggest grace. Most of that is through being able to use thinner wire.

You don't really need to read the link cuase you don't use loops and proly never will.

I find your two hots a bit confusing. I understand it at at the wiring and power level but Is each one a sine wave in it's own right? Or a half wave? How do they combine. Seems odd.

[Jimbo]

I find your two hots a bit confusing. I understand it at at the wiring and power level but Is each one a sine wave in it's own right? Or a half wave? How do they combine. Seems odd.

L1 and L2 are 180 degrees out of phase. Each one to Neutral (Ground) makes 120V L1-N or L2-N, but make 240 across them L1-L2

Here's a picture...

Edit: regarding lots of 'radials back to the box' No, we put multiple sockets on each circuit, run the wire from socket to socket. One circuit is one breaker is one room, or 2 rooms.

[Haus]

Quick check on controller outlet for 110 outlet.
I want to control each plug independently by way of two light switches, I have two pond pumps I want to turn off/on as needed.
This look right?