Heating Element Control

[rad14701]

Yes I actually have one of those as well...that exact one actually. I was looking at the wrong part when I wrote that down in the previous post. I'm going by Pintoshine's first diagram along with his written instructions for modifying the dimmer for 240V. I understand the diagram (I think), but I'm not so sure about disassembling the dimmer and attaching new parts. I was hoping someone could show me a picture of how that is done.

Okay, that makes sense... Unfortunately, to date I have not built a 240V controller, only 120V controllers... I'll see what I can find as far as more explicit procedures...

[Pamulli]

My understanding was that you take an off the shelf 600W dimmer and you replace the potentiometer and capacitor on it and you only use the TO-220 from the dimmer. In Pintoshine's original parts list, the potentiometer he called for is part number 313-2441-500K which doesn't seem to exist anymore and has been replaced with 313-2441F-500K...at least from what I could tell and that is the part I bought. If I'm wrong about this please let me know and if possible please let me know what part I should get. This was all culled from pulling together various posts so I could have missed something, but I don't think I did.

This is the parts list I was working from.

For the 240 volt circuit, I used Mouser P/N: 74-4SP10
400V .1 uf MET POLY
The description is Vishay/Sprague Ployester Orange Drop Capacitor.
the variable resistor is P/N: 313-2441-500K
The discription is D-Shaft 500K
Tiawan Alpha 24mm Carbon Potentiometer.

Thanks,

[rad14701]

Pamulli, those parts should work...

[Pamulli]

Pamulli, those parts will work...

Thanks for clarifying Rad. I have been going through this post over and over for days now trying to get a clear understanding of how this works so I'm glad to know that I at least ordered the right parts. Now if I can only get it all together and make it work. This makes building the still seem like a breeze.

[rad14701]

Pamulli, notice that I edited my previous post to state "should"...

The wiring is pretty straight-forward... Probably the trickiest part for someone not familiar with potentiometers is that they generally come with three terminals... You always use the center terminal and just one of the outer terminals, depending on which way you want it to vary the resistance from low to high... Use a multimeter to test the resistance to determine this...

The rest of the circuit is just as it was for the original dimmer... The resistor goes between MT2 output of the high power triac and the input side (MT1) of the dimmers quadrac... The output side of the dimmer (MT2 of the quadrac) goes to the Gate of the high power triac...

[still crazy]

Found this link at Vulcan. Thought it might be useful

http://www.vulcanelectric.com/downloads ... rating.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Caveguy]

At work we use Burst-Fire controllers to control heating elements in HVAC-units.
They turn the heaters on and off for a short period of time.
The more heat you're asking, the longer it stays on, if you ask for less heat, the off time increases.

505213_RB_00_FB.EPS.jpg (6.61 KiB) Viewed 3499 times

http://www.winling.com.tw/new_page_33.htm

They're available from 25A to 90A and 48 to 530 VAC.

We use the 0-10V version, because that's what our temperature controllers put out,
but they're also available in 4-20mA and a potmeter version.

http://www.crydom.com/en/Products/Catalog/m_cbc.pdf

The downside is that you need a separate 24VDC supply and the controller is rather pricey.
( €90 at Conrad for the 280VAC/25A/0-10V one. )
On the other hand, they're foolproof, you don't need an expensive filter and they're made to control heaters.

I hope anyone can use this information.

Caveguy.

[Rambo Nuggets]

Sorry to hijack the post but I'm after abit of help.....

The pic above is of an old electric wok heating element (1200w) the problem with it is, it cycles turning on and off.
I dont want it to cycle anymore so can I just bypass the dial so that it stays on? or is there abit more involved?
The plan was to remove the red wire (at the top of the pic) from the dial and join it to the terminal where the red wire starts(at the bottom of the pic) with that done the bottom red wire would be completely removed this procedure would bypass the dial...
Does that sound about right? any other ideas?

cheers.

[rad14701]

Rambo Nuggets, could you post a larger image because even using zoom on the one posted I can't make out the circuitry... I'm guessing that the two red wires in the upper right could be connected directly together but I wouldn't suggest trying that until we can get a better view of the wiring...

[Rambo Nuggets]

Rad, mate I already tried bypassing the dial but unfortunately it didn't work to well.....it got red hot way to fast which resulted in smoke so I put it back the way I found it...

Question, could i use a dimmer switch instead of the built in cycling dial thingy to control the temp? will it still over heat?

cheers

[rad14701]

Question, could i use a dimmer switch instead of the built in cycling dial thingy to control the temp? will it still over heat?

Yes, if you can find a dimmer that can handle that wattage... That's why we build triac based controllers... If your hot plate/wok is less than 1500W you might be able to get by with a router speed controller if you don't want to try building a triac based controller...

[Pamulli]

Can anyone help me out with modifying this store bought 600 watt dimmer to handle 240V?

I have the Triac and other parts as I posted earlier.
From what I understand based on Pintoshine's posts, I remove everything except the TO-220 chip, which is the little chip indicated above and I replace the potentiometer with the one I bought (Mouse PN 313-2441F-500K) and I solder the capacitor (Mouse PN 4PSP10) between the new potentiometer and the TO-220. I then connect the power resistor to the TO-220 which then goes to the new Power TRIAC.

The part I'm uncertain about is which pin on the T0-220 do I connect the capacitor and resistor to? Hopefully it is legible in the picture to someone that understands this better than me because i'm not sure.

Thanks,

[Pamulli]

I can see that the TO-220 is made by STMicroelectronics and after looking at a number of their similar chips on Mouser, I would assume the pins are as I have marked in the below photo since all the ones I saw were this way. Does that seem right based on how everything is connected?

If that is right, do i connect the gate from my Power Triac to the Gate on the TO-220 and the Capacitor connects to A1 and then to the potentiometer which then goes to the Resistor and then to MT2 on the Power Triac?

Sorry for all of these questions...this part is a little out of my element, but now that the still is built http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p6826534 I'm ready to get this knocked out.

Thanks again for all the great help on this board. I plan on photographing this switch build step by step to hopefully help other people like me who need a little more hand holding.

[Pamulli]

The rest of the circuit is just as it was for the original dimmer... The resistor goes between MT2 output of the high power triac and the input side (MT1) of the dimmers quadrac... The output side of the dimmer (MT2 of the quadrac) goes to the Gate of the high power triac...

Hey RAD, sorry I missed this section of your post.
So on my picture, would A1 be the same as MT1 and A2 the same as MT2? The manufacturer uses A1 and A2 in their data sheets, but I would assume they imply the same thing?

Assuming that is the case can you verify if the connections are as follows and answer the last one?
A1 on the TO-220 connects to the Gate on the Power Triac
A2 on the TO-220 connects to the Resistor and then to MT2 of the Power Triac
G on the TO-220 connects to the capacitor and then to either 1 or 3 terminal on the Potentiometer (This is one of the parts I'm uncertain about)
What connects to the center terminal on the Potentiometer?

Thanks,

[rad14701]

Yes, A1 = MT1 and A2 = MT2...

As I mentioned in my PM reply to you, your dimmer uses a double time constant circuit which is better than the cheap dimmers which use a minimum of components... I'd try using the circuit in my previous post considering the added circuitry... The worst you can do is to scrap a dimmer - something many of us have done at least once...

[powellkop]

hi just wandering if any one in the uk has tried to make one of these if so what diagram did you use

[rad14701]

hi just wandering if any one in the uk has tried to make one of these if so what diagram did you use

Built for proper mains voltage they should work in any country just as long as the mains are connected properly...

[powellkop]

thanks for that rad 14701

[powellkop]

hi guys
is there anyone that could pm me a parts list and an easy to follow diagram for a controller that will work on a 240 volt with 15amp or 30amp fuse.
as the more i read the more confused i get sorry to be a pain
thanks

[rad14701]

hi guys
is there anyone that could pm me a parts list and an easy to follow diagram for a controller that will work on a 240 volt with 15amp or 30amp fuse.
as the more i read the more confused i get sorry to be a pain
thanks

I'm pretty sure all of the information is here in this topic, you just have to find and understand it... If it seems too complicated you might be better off considering buying a controller...

[beelah]

I have read this string and I think I understand the principals but I have a couple of questions

1.Will a 1500 watt internal element be sufficient to heat up a 50l stainless steel beer keg which I want to convert into an electric boiler?
2. Woudl 2 1500 watt elements be more efficient both in time and enetrgy?
3.On the question a controller, I found the dimmmer below that is sold at Home Depot and is rated at 1000w. Will this do as an controller fo the internal elements? These dimmers have two heat sinks/cooling fins on the back of the unit and are $49 Canadian. Woukd they work? Besides having the variable current on the slide or rotary switch, they have an on-off switch that turns on at the last setting. These are built for incandesent lights, so my thinking is they may work.
4.My understanding then is if I went to two elements, they would have to be on differnt circuts as ther ewoudld be close ot 15 amps draw on the circut by the heating element. Is this correct?
5. Could I put them both on a 30 am circut that I have in the room tha I am thinking of using whic is the laundry room with an electric 30 amp circut fotr the dryer?

http://www.homedepot.ca/catalog/dimmers/173170" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[squidd]

Hi Beelah,

Two elements will pump twice the BTU's/hr compared to a single one. This will reduce your boil up and stripping time by roughly half.

Don't use a 1000 watt dimmer to control a 1500 watt load. Instead, get a proper controller. A properly sized router controller will also work.

Yes, ampacity wise, your dryer outlet will work but it will be sourcing 240 volts. Are you comfortable in making the proper 120 volt connections?

HTH,
squidd

[rad14701]

I have read this string and I think I understand the principals but I have a couple of questions

1.Will a 1500 watt internal element be sufficient to heat up a 50l stainless steel beer keg which I want to convert into an electric boiler?

1500W will work but will take longer to bring the wash up to temperature...

2. Woudl 2 1500 watt elements be more efficient both in time and enetrgy?

Yes, two elements will bring the wash to temperature in a shorter amount of time...

3.On the question a controller, I found the dimmmer below that is sold at Home Depot and is rated at 1000w. Will this do as an controller fo the internal elements? These dimmers have two heat sinks/cooling fins on the back of the unit and are $49 Canadian. Woukd they work? Besides having the variable current on the slide or rotary switch, they have an on-off switch that turns on at the last setting. These are built for incandesent lights, so my thinking is they may work.

You need a dimmer capable of handling more wattage than the element draws... A 1000W dimmer will fail quickly attempting to drive a 1500W heating element...

4.My understanding then is if I went to two elements, they would have to be on differnt circuts as ther ewoudld be close ot 15 amps draw on the circut by the heating element. Is this correct?

Yes, you would need two separate circuits to drive two 120V 1500W elements...

5. Could I put them both on a 30 am circut that I have in the room tha I am thinking of using whic is the laundry room with an electric 30 amp circut fotr the dryer?

That is a 240V circuit which would require 240V components...

[beelah]

thanks everyone for the advice. I was just seeing if I could use off the shelf units that wouldn't cost me an arm and a leg, but it looks like either I will have to build one myself or get a friend to make one up for me.

If I make one then I think i am going to go 240 volt as I can put in a bigger heater unit and get the wash up to temp quicker

[rad14701]

If you're looking for simple and cost effective you can build a controller for about the same price as the light dimmer you mentioned... You can use a United Automation PSR-25 and a potentiometer, plus a heat sink for the PSR-25, and you're done... The bonus is that the PSR-25 works with both 120V and 240V, although you need a different potentiometer for each voltage... The PSR-25 is rated to 6000 watts...

[Bob421]

The rest of the circuit is just as it was for the original dimmer... The resistor goes between MT2 output of the high power triac and the input side (MT1) of the dimmers quadrac... The output side of the dimmer (MT2 of the quadrac) goes to the Gate of the high power triac...

Hey RAD, sorry I missed this section of your post.
So on my picture, would A1 be the same as MT1 and A2 the same as MT2? The manufacturer uses A1 and A2 in their data sheets, but I would assume they imply the same thing?

TO-220.jpg

Assuming that is the case can you verify if the connections are as follows and answer the last one?
A1 on the TO-220 connects to the Gate on the Power Triac
A2 on the TO-220 connects to the Resistor and then to MT2 of the Power Triac
G on the TO-220 connects to the capacitor and then to either 1 or 3 terminal on the Potentiometer (This is one of the parts I'm uncertain about)
What connects to the center terminal on the Potentiometer?

Thanks,

So How is it going Pamulli?
I am in exactly the same spot. I removed the Blue capacitor(it was yellow on mine it was attached to the switch portion of the dimmer) and replaced the brown capacitor and pot left the coil and other stuff attached to the pc board and now am contemplating just unsoldering the TO-220 and using your pinouts to connect it in the circuit.
BTW this is the cheapest dimmer I could find and mine appears to have all the same components as pamullis I am not sure what the double time constant thing is but will it affect its ability to controll the triac without the additional components of the dimmer circuit?( there is a tiny little trim pot of some kind and a resistor or two plus the two capacitors)

[Pamulli]

Bob,
I got the switch built and then got bogged down in welding stuff on my keg. As it turns out I'm not as good a welder as I thought. I'm having to go back and re-weld everything to get it water tight and have yet to fire up the switch to see what happens. Just not enough free time these days. The welds are going much better the second time, but the heat warped the coupling I welded on for the heater element and it has to be cut off and a new one welded on. I hope to have my welds finished this weekend and to give the switch a try. I'll post my results and if it works I'll post the pictures of my build with all the part numbers.

Rad also posted another build option that sounds easier than what we did and I guess if mine fails I may try his suggestion below.

If you're looking for simple and cost effective you can build a controller for about the same price as the light dimmer you mentioned... You can use a United Automation PSR-25 and a potentiometer, plus a heat sink for the PSR-25, and you're done... The bonus is that the PSR-25 works with both 120V and 240V, although you need a different potentiometer for each voltage... The PSR-25 is rated to 6000 watts...

If you get yours tested before I post, please let us know the results.

Thanks,

[Bob421]

I am researching that option also.
I looked it up but the data sheet shows a filter in the circuit and I am not sure what exactly is needed.
Did you use just the chip or did you use the circuit board with the other components?
That makes me worried that I will mess up welding my half coupling in.
I welded my whole column together just fine but there is a big difference in thicknesses to be welded here.
Are you using a tig welder?

[Pamulli]

I am researching that option also.
I looked it up but the data sheet shows a filter in the circuit and I am not sure what exactly is needed.
Did you use just the chip or did you use the circuit board with the other components?
That makes me worried that I will mess up welding my half coupling in.
I welded my whole column together just fine but there is a big difference in thicknesses to be welded here.
Are you using a tig welder?

I used the dimmer as is with all the parts that came with it. According to Rad, the worst thing that will happen is that I'll blow the dimmer. I have the extra components if that happens and will try building it using just the chip. Would be nice if the dimmer works as is though.

As for the welding, I'm using MIG (first time) and I didn't have my gas turned up enough so I wasn't getting good penetration. I then tried to weld on top of the original weld and that warped my coupling. This time I bought a SS plug so that I can weld it with the plug in and not worry about it warping. I also put a drain in the bottom and two ferrules on top. Probably overkill....

[rad14701]

Bob421, the filter circuit is not required... The UA PSR-25 only needs the correct potentiometer for the mains voltage used as well as a heat sink... I am seriously considering building one of these units... I'm relatively certain that one of our members is using one of these although the maximum wattage may be different...