Heating Element Control

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Squint
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Squint »

I would have used a sultronics controller, but they are rated lower than for my 4.5 KW
Sutronics have a 6kw controller, but it is a bit pricey.

6kw Burst-Fired Power Controller

BFM240-25HS (1-9 items)

Price: £46.77 (€52.63) (Excluding: VAT at 15%)


I have put a 4.5kw and a 3kw in my 50ltr keg, will use both for fast heat up, then turn of the 4.5kw at temp and then run the 3kw with the 3kw controller( from Sutronics ) to simmer and control temp, should be ok.

Squint
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by rad14701 »

stillvodka wrote:Speaking to a electrician today, he does bit work for me and my Brother on a house conversion we are doing, got around to discussing my distilling hobby and about my new boiler, told him about me fitting a 4.5 KW element, first thing he said was how are you running that, have you got a separate 40amp consumer box fitted in your shed wired into the direct mains house consumer unit same as the cooker, felt and looked abit :oops: ,he said surly your not running from house socket 13amp plug socket, I said yes, never really thought about it, Kettle element is 3kw why worry always worked before no trouble.
Would you be running the 4.5KW element off 240 or 120...??? You definitely need to make sure you aren't pushing the limits of your electrical system regardless of supply voltage... Hope he offered up some good advice...

"<Sniff> Do you smell smoke?"

Just went back a page and read your other posts... The 1125W of a 4.5KW @ 120V should work fine with a 15A circuit...
stillvodka
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by stillvodka »

He said you don't run 4.5kw heating elements off your standard plug socket , it will be pulling too much continuous power through, you have got to have it wired into your consumer mains board, his advice was fit a secondary single consumer box in your workshop/shed, wire it into that with push fit socket plugs and be safe, I said that we use a Kettle for our cups of tea that runs on 3 kw element, ha' he said but the kettle will not be running fore more than a few minutes. I didn't really want to question his advice, he's a bang up to date BS regulated electrician.
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by rad14701 »

stillvodka wrote:I didn't really want to question his advice, he's a bang up to date BS regulated electrician.
Yeah, sometimes it's best to not push the issue, especially when you're looking for reasonable charges for services provided... I know a couple tradesman that won't deviate from standardized code advice one iota because they don't want to jeopardize their licenses - no way, no how... By the book all the way... In a way I can't say as I blame them...
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by stillvodka »

I got no choice now but follow his recommendations, I know If anything did happen most it could do really is blow the fuse in the plug, but now that he told me I cant take the chance. so I will toddle off out today and get me new Box and cable.
Ugly

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Ugly »

The only thing that caught my attention in that was why he said a 40amp handling capacity was needed when your 4500W element only needs a 20 amp max handling capacity (slightly less but 20amp is the correct breaker size). It's not an electrical motor and does not surge when it's turned it. It'll draw its max load of ~18.75 and no more - usually less since the rating for those elements is usually on the high side.

12 gauge can carry 20 amps
10 gauge can carry 30 amps
8 gauge can carry 40 amps

big difference in the price of those wires if you are talking about any distance at all.
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by HookLine »

eternalfrost wrote:His 4500W 240V element will put out 1125W at 120V. This is plenty to run a column. have to admit im not an expert on potstills but i would imagine this would be enough to run one as well

on my 2" reflux i only use in the ball park of 750W.
I run my 2" neutral column at about 1300-1400 w. Some stillers run harder than that, some slower.

On a spirit run in pot still mode, I judge heat input by condensate output rate. I start at about 2 drops a second for the fores, then 4-5 drops for the heads, and for the hearts I set the rate where it just starts being a solid stable stream, about the thickness of a pencil lead. These different output rate correspond very roughly to maybe 600 w, 800 w, and 1000-1400 w.

The output rate tends to drop over the hearts cut if you hold the power input the same. So I turn the power up a little every so often to keep the output rate the same, and by the end of the hearts it is on about 1300-1400 w.

(P.S. I have a well insulated boiler.)
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stillvodka
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by stillvodka »

Ugly wrote:The only thing that caught my attention in that was why he said a 40amp handling capacity was needed when your 4500W element only needs a 20 amp max handling capacity (slightly less but 20amp is the correct breaker size). It's not an electrical motor and does not surge when it's turned it. It'll draw its max load of ~18.75 and no more - usually less since the rating for those elements is usually on the high side.

12 gauge can carry 20 amps
10 gauge can carry 30 amps
8 gauge can carry 40 amps

big difference in the price of those wires if you are talking about any distance at all.
Beginning to think I shouldn't of mentioned anything to the electrician, I always ran my old boiler on 3 kw through a plug with 13am fuse never had a problem before, maybe 4.5 kw is a bit higher but it will only be running that for 3/4 hour for heat up, it wont be constant running full 4.5kw
violentblue
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by violentblue »

stillvodka wrote: Beginning to think I shouldn't of mentioned anything to the electrician, I always ran my old boiler on 3 kw through a plug with 13am fuse never had a problem before, maybe 4.5 kw is a bit higher but it will only be running that for 3/4 hour for heat up, it wont be constant running full 4.5kw
I run my 4.5kw element from a dryer plug, which is on a 40 amp circuit double what the element requires, assuming you have a 240v source you shouldn't have issues with a 3/4 hour warm up, or even longer.
tincup
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by tincup »

When I put my system together I didn't realize that surging could be an issue (I should have done more research).

I'm running a 4.5kw element in a 16gal keg with a 2" reflux on top. I am using a Pulse Width Modulator to control the element here is the schematic:
pwm.gif
pwm.gif (9.31 KiB) Viewed 5997 times
I pulled the schmatic from a home brewing site for a guy who was using it for his boiler. http://home.highertech.net/~cdp/boilnew/boilnew.htm

The PWM circuit works great at switching the 220v through a 50A SSR but the problem is that the pulses are too wide. I'm not very experienced at electronics but I've read enough about PWM circuits to know that if I change out the 4.7u cap I can alter the pulse. I just don't know what I should change it to. It seems like I should have more of a rapid fire pulsing rather than the slow on-off pulsing I have now.

It appears that I should have just ordered from Pintoshine but hopefully I can salvage this controller.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
tincup
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by tincup »

I fixed it. I put a 1u cap in place of the 4.7u cap and it keeps the temp rock solid without surging.
julythermostats
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by julythermostats »

The only thing that caught my attention in that was why he said a 40amp handling capacity was needed when your 4500W element only needs a 20 amp max handling capacity..


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rad14701
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by rad14701 »

julythermostats wrote:The only thing that caught my attention in that was why he said a 40amp handling capacity was needed when your 4500W element only needs a 20 amp max handling capacity..


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It's common practice to use components rated double the intended load so that they run cooler and have a greater fault margin...
Klaassen
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Klaassen »

HookLine wrote:
I run my 2" neutral column at about 1300-1400 w. Some stillers run harder than that, some slower.

On a spirit run in pot still mode, I judge heat input by condensate output rate. I start at about 2 drops a second for the fores, then 4-5 drops for the heads, and for the hearts I set the rate where it just starts being a solid stable stream, about the thickness of a pencil lead. These different output rate correspond very roughly to maybe 600 w, 800 w, and 1000-1400 w.

The output rate tends to drop over the hearts cut if you hold the power input the same. So I turn the power up a little every so often to keep the output rate the same, and by the end of the hearts it is on about 1300-1400 w.

(P.S. I have a well insulated boiler.)
Being a simple man, I was trying to imagine a simple, 'me proof' way to regulate the power to a hypothetical 20l pot still when I had a hair brained idea, but since I am not an electrician I'd like to be shot down now if I've got this bass-ackwards, before I waste my time and money, kill myself or cause the next Chicago fire.

My idea was I could mount two elements in my boiler:

One 3000w 240vac element running at 120vac for 1/4 the wattage, if I'm remembering correctly, resulting in an improvised 750w element for a 'low' setting that seems to correspond (slightly) to the lower end of your rough wattage to output estimates, -and-

One 1500w 120vac element to be used in conjunction with the 750w element on heat up, and by itself as a 'high' setting towards the end of a run.

Is this foolish, is a hard wired power control like this too coarsely grained? Am I be better off in the long run biting the bullet and building one of pint's controllers which everybody seems to love? My only concern with pint's controller isn't the design, but my ability to execute it without 'riding the lightning'.

I'd like to apologize ahead of time if I've asked too many dumb questions already answered elsewhere, I searched for similar ideas but maybe I just wasn't searching for the right phrases.
Hawke
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Hawke »

Klaassen,
There are several that use(d) the two element process. I do think you would be much happier if you had the ability to fine tune it though.
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Klaassen »

Hawke,
Thanks, I think you've got a point. Might as well build things as versatile as I can from the start, instead of trying to revise and piece everything together down the line.
HookLine
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by HookLine »

Klaassen wrote:Is this foolish, is a hard wired power control like this too coarsely grained?
Not at all. If you have dual voltages, like in the USA, and you have two different size elements, then by switching between different combinations of voltage and elements you can in principle get 8 different power levels. So if you pick the element sizes carefully you could do without a dedicated controller, for both reflux and pot stilling.

However the fine degree of control an electronic controller gives is good to have, and is not particularly expensive.
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Gunslinger
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Gunslinger »

Question for you technosavy guys. I do have a 15 amp variac and intend to use it for my self on 1500w and 2000w elements. But I seen this on ebay and was wondering if it would work to control heating element on 120v AC. I have read through most of the posts on here and like the diagrams and talk in the pages. This may be similar to the posts about router speed controllers, but I am just not knowledgeable enough to know if it is the same or not. Any input is appreciated as I plan to build a couple of units.

http://cgi.ebay.com/AC-or-DC-ELECTRICAL ... %26ps%3D54" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


:econfused:
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by rad14701 »

Gunslinger, some folks have had pretty good luck with router controllers while others haven't... For the price it would be worth a shot but I don't know if I'd try one with a 2000W element... The unit in your link, at the bottom of the page, only has an 18 gauge power cord and the amperage would exceed 15A... A 1500W element would be the maximum for that particular controller... A 2000W element would require a 20A circuit, minimum...
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Gunslinger »

Thanks for the reply. For the price, I may try it since if it burns up, would not be a big expense. I always have the variac to use in any case for myself.
DBDub
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by DBDub »

Alot of good info here, I've read over all 16 pages 3 or 4 times :econfused: I've seen little explanation for sizing of the elements. I'm building a 25g pot and been trying to figure out which way to go with the element(s). acording to a few ignorant calculations it will take 25000Btu to bring 200lb wash from 75 to 200f. I also found a few btu ratings for elements stating 2000w @235 vac = 6824 Btu/H and 4500w = 1863 Btu/H????????? that seems like I'd need 2 large elements to heat my pot at a reasonable time. Is there any info out there on sizing of elements?
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by LWTCS »

DBDub wrote:I'm building a 25g pot and been trying to figure out which way to go with the element(s). acording to a few ignorant calculations it will take 25000Btu to bring 200lb wash from 75 to 200f.
.

I think you may need a bigger boiler to bring a 200 pound charge up to temp. 200 lbs is like 23(and change).
I'm not a math/formula guy so I tried to gauge my element choice by everyone else's OJT so to speak.

I run a 240 volt, 4500 watt element that will produce vapor (from the boiler) from a 40 liter water charge in 45 minutes.
I use a DPDT 30 amp switch to control power input. Its a limited amount of control.

Next year I'll save for the variac switch.
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leob2
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by leob2 »

macmaster.com has several heating element sizes and dimmer switches you can use for a boiler control. I have a keg w/a 2000 watt preheater on the upper part,of the keg its plugged directly into the wall until your up to temp. Then on lower element I have a 1500watt running through a 1000 watt dimmer switch, never had any trouble.Not expensive either.they have all sizes check em out.
I hope that I feel better when I'm ridin' in that hearse.
E_C_Flanderson
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by E_C_Flanderson »

Thanks to everybody for the information, this is my first post on the board but have been reading for about a year - there is so much information here, I have never had to ask a question. I have just built a voltage controller based around one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/POWER-VOLTAGE-SPE ... 19b73a0607" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Its seems to be similar to the circuit in the schematic and only costs £20. I simply put a CPU heatsink on it and installed it into a recycled PC PSU case. It works really well and can easily handle my 3000w heating element at 240v.
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by leob2 »

check mcmaster.com look at their dimmer switches. My 600w from still drinkin burnt up in 2 runs (may they burn in hell). But it gave me the idea to build a good one with stainess fittings etc. mcmaster.com will replace what you need and I havent had a single problem since I have a 1000 watt dimmer but they have much larger including 220 volt ones at a resonable prices.
I hope that I feel better when I'm ridin' in that hearse.
DBDub
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by DBDub »

OK I found a compilation of usefull info that helped me and may help others.

BTU= energy req to raise temp of 1lb of water 1deg 1 hr
1 gal water = 8.333lbs
1 cubic ft of water = 7.48 gal
1 gal = 231 cubic inches
capacity of a cylinder in gallons is equal to (in inches) Length x Diamiter sqared x .0034
water expands 4.34% from 40* to 212*
1ft water column = .4333 psi or 1 psi = 27.6in

Amps (1phase) = KW x 1000 / Volts

BTUs
1 KW = 3412
1cu ft Natural Gas = 1075
1cu ft Propane = 2570

in my case 25g is max (w/6" head space) and probably wont be filled. These #'s are at 100% efficiency and I understand that a mash is going to be heavier than water, so its just a jumping off point.

25g = 208.325 x temp raise 125* (75* to 200*) = 26040.6 BTU
26040.6 / 3412 = 7.63 KW
7.63KW = 33.17 Amps @ 230v

I dont want to go above 30A so I think I'll stay a bit lower at 6500 or 6000W split between 2 elements. 4500w on a thermostat and 2000w on a controller. I don't mind a bit longer heat up time since I will be making 1 run vs 2. It will still save alot of time in changing over and heating the 2nd batch.

Thanks again for all these great posts
D.
Igor_From_Jdessa
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Igor_From_Jdessa »

to DBDub wrote:OK I found a compilation of usefull info that helped me and may help others.
BTU= energy req to raise temp of 1lb of water 1deg 1 hr
D.
"1 hr" is error. BTU don't include time. BTU mesures energy, not power.

If heater element a 1 kilowatt works 1 hour, he gives 3412 BTU in a cube.
if you need 26040.6 BTU, heater element 1 kW must works 7.6 hours - wery long time.
Heater element 7.62 kW will works 1 hour, but 33 amps is large load.
You must choose the middle.

My case. Cube 13g (50 litters). 10g of wash. 2 heater element a 2.2 kilowatt = 4.4. Time of effervescence about 40-45 min.
Time of distillation after diminishing of power to 3 kW - 2-2.5 hr. Result - 11 liters -50%vol (2.9 gallons).

For regulation of power i use simple home-made dimmer with triack BTA41-800 or BTA41-600. Maximum load 40 amps - 9 kW. :)
Last edited by Igor_From_Jdessa on Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tater
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Tater »

Igor_From_Jdessa wrote:
to DBDub wrote:OK I found a compilation of usefull info that helped me and may help others.
BTU= energy req to raise temp of 1lb of water 1deg 1 hr
D.
"1 hr" is error. BTU don't include time. BTU mesures energy, not power.

If heater element a 1 kilowatt works 1 hour, he gives 3412 BTU in a cube.
if you need 26040.6 BTU, heater element 1 kW must works 7.6 hours - wery long time.
Heater element 7.62 kW will works 1 hour, but 33 amps is large load.
It is needed to choose in the middle.

My case. Cube 13g (50 litters). 10g of wash. 2 heater element a 2.2 kilowatt = 4.4. Time of effervescence about 40-45 min.
Time of distillation after diminishing of power to 3 kW - 2-2.5 hr. Result - 11 liters -50%vol (2.9 gallons).

For regulation of power i use simple home-made dimmer with triack BTA41-800 or BTA41-600. Maximum load 40 amps - 9 kW. :)
The British thermal unit (BTU or Btu) is a traditional unit of energy. It is approximately the amount of energy needed to heat one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit. One Btu is equal to about 1.06 kilojoules. It is used in the power, steam generation, heating and air conditioning industries. In scientific contexts the BTU has largely been replaced by the SI unit of energy, the joule (J), though it may be used as a measure of agricultural energy production (BTU/kg). It is still used 'unofficially' in metric English-speaking countries (such as Canada, the United Kingdom), and remains the standard unit of classification for air conditioning units manufactured and sold in many non-English-speaking metric countries.

In North America, the term "BTU" is used to describe the heat value (energy content) of fuels, and also to describe the power of heating and cooling systems, such as furnaces, stoves, barbecue grills, and air conditioners. When used as a unit of power, BTU 'per hour' (BTU/h) is understood, though this is often abbreviated to just "BTU".

The unit MBTU was defined as one thousand BTU presumably from the Roman numeral system where "M" stands for one thousand (1,000). This is easily confused with the SI mega (M) prefix, which multiplies by a factor of one million (1,000,000). To avoid confusion many companies and engineers use MMBTU to represent one million BTU. Alternatively a therm is used representing 100,000 or 105 BTU, and a quad as 1015 BTU.
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper
Igor_From_Jdessa
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Igor_From_Jdessa »

tater, thank You for quotation from vikipediа. I studied this page before writing of my report and changed my numbers from SI in BTU. But unit of measuring of energy does not change time of heating and distilling or rectification.
When used as a unit of power, BTU 'per hour' (BTU/h) is understood, though this is often abbreviated to just "BTU".
Unfortunately this abbreviated gives many misunderstanding in the calculations of power.
Jack the dripper
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Jack the dripper »

New to this site. Real new like 5 minutes ago. maybe this isn't the place for this question............ Why wouldn't it be possible to control a heating element with a Variable Frequency Control?
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