Heating Element Control

If it plugs in, post it here.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
seravitae
Swill Maker
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:31 pm

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by seravitae »

Yeah, i'm still looking into the cost first.

It would probably be a bit more expensive than the average controller, simply because it would be designed for brewers in mind and have all the features they wanted in it. But i'll put a price down and see what people think of it, once i've done all the figures. The really expensive thing is probably going to be the case..

Anyways, all the triacs/relays i use are 400v+, so they work on 120 and 240v.

Also looking at bundling the unit with an inline ethanol abv% measuring system.
HookLine
retired
Posts: 5628
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:38 am
Location: OzLand

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by HookLine »

If you are dreaming of ideal controllers, then...

A function to measure temp at the head (in a reflux column) and when it gets up to a preset temp, to then switch the heat back down to a preset level, and also at the same time turn on the coolant flow to the reflux condenser. (Though this could make folk lazy and not watch their still properly.)

Plus a data port out to allow a computer to monitor and record everything, so we can post nice neat graphs of our runs. :mrgreen:
Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.
seravitae
Swill Maker
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:31 pm

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by seravitae »

hookline, i was considering something similar to that.. a ramp that lets you go from potstill to reflux mode and inbetween. So you can turn on the coolant pump for a coolant-managed still. I am debating whether to add this because there are 3 different flavours of stills, i dont know how many use coolant-managed, and im not sure if it'd be worth adding it, because that would mean another relay/SSR/triac in there and bring the cost of the unit up. I will consider it though.

My current still controller will soon have bluetooth functionality for PC control and sending data to pc (and remote control from my phone :mrgreen: ) so data port + software shouldn't be a problem.

keep the ideas comin'.
snuffy
Swill Maker
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by snuffy »

I'm looking at this little gem if I find my analog controllers don't cut the mustard.

http://www.makershed.com/ProductDetails ... Code=MKSP1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Tons of I/O channels and built in A/D.

My other el cheapo option is to use an old Radio Shack Color Computer (which I've had in storage for twenty years....) They are lovely little beasts: 4 A/D ports, one controllable relay and if you want to build an expansion board, eight TTL level outputs already on the port. With a long time base (2 sec) and an SSR, all it takes is the proper connectors and some wire to use the relay as a driver.

BTW, pinto's controller could be easily made into a temp controller by putting a thermistor with one potentiometer in parallel and one in series. One sets the sensitivity and the other sets the temp.

Another way to go is a Solid State Relay (SSR) driven by a variable pulse width DC controller. These are cute because they are linear. PW controllers in kit form are cheap (<$10US) from model train suppliers.

In response to the above question about linearity - the short answer is no. Time base control is quasi linear in the midrange and non-linear at the top and bottom. Plus they don't switch on from zero on the control, you have to turn them up until the circuit strikes and then you can turn them down. Play with a dimmer switch on a light an you'll see what I mean.

But I gotta say that pinto's design is beautifully minimal.
Time's a wasting!!!
seravitae
Swill Maker
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:31 pm

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by seravitae »

good idea mate..

just like to say from experience, having built my own controller, for a 25L distillation with a 400mm liebig condensor, a 2 second duty cycle isnt very consistent for output. It'll be even worse for those on smaller stills. I had to make my duty cycles down to about 500ms before output stabilized to satisfactory levels. so if you are going the arduino/ssr route just make sure your ssr can go fast. :)
snuffy
Swill Maker
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by snuffy »

Sorry, maybe I was unclear. Two second timing loop divided into (arbitrarily) 100 switching intervals. Duty cycle could be as short as 20 ms at 50% power. If shorter cycles are needed, just increase the number of intervals. If it servos and hunts, increase the length of the timing loop, etc.

I'm hoping I don't have to get that fancy; once the test rig is up and running I'll have some real data to play with.
In the days when the white engineers were disputing the attributes of the feeder system that was to be, one of them came to Enzian of Bleicheröde and said, "We cannot agree on the chamber pressure. Our calculations show that a working pressure of 40 atü would be the most desirable. But all the data we know of are grouped around a value of only 10 atü.

"Then clearly," replied the Nguarorerue, "you must listen to the data."

"But that would not be the most perfect or efficient value," protested the German.

"Proud man," said the Nguarorerue. "What are these data, if not direct revelation? Where have they come from, if not from the Rocket which is to be? How do you presume to compare a number you have only derived on paper with a number that is the Rocket's own? Avoid pride, and design to some compromise value."
--Gravity's Rainbow
Time's a wasting!!!
lustreking
Novice
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by lustreking »

Maybe I missed this somewhere in the thread, but I'm beginning to build one of these to control a 110 V 1500 W element. How big of a heat sink do I need to use for the alternistor?
leob2
Novice
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:02 am
Location: Rlght under their noses

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by leob2 »

Well it was bound to happen...My revamped stilldrinkin.com still that I rebuilt I overlooked the heating element controller. I noticed that it had been getting too hot to touch the metal box it was mounted in. Well today the 6oo watt dimmer switch which controls the 2000 watt elements melted. I'm going to replace the bottom element with a 3000 watt. Any ideas what to use for my contoller?
w
I hope that I feel better when I'm ridin' in that hearse.
tonkyman
Novice
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:09 am
Location: Way down in Dixie

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by tonkyman »

lustreking wrote:Maybe I missed this somewhere in the thread, but I'm beginning to build one of these to control a 110 V 1500 W element. How big of a heat sink do I need to use for the alternistor?
I mounted mine to the box I put it in but I use a small computer fan to keep it cool. In one of Pints designs he removes the plastic cover of the dimmer and mounts the alternistor to the aluminum piece that mounts the dimmer to the wall box. About any small heat sink will work with proper ventilation or just use a CPU heat sink.... I think it will work just fine. Mine is mounted to a steel conduit box and the box gets pretty warm if I don't use the fan. If I ever build another one I'll mount the alternistor to a big CPU heat sink outside the box so it can get plenty of air without a fan..... but that's just my two cents worth :D
Tony T
Just tryin' to learn the art.
leob2
Novice
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:02 am
Location: Rlght under their noses

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by leob2 »

I'm not a electician but wouldn't a 600w light dimmer switch be to small for a 3000w heating element. I have been able to find a 1000w dimmer switch but don't want to spend the $40.00 if it will not work.
I have a metal box mounted to the side of the keg...I found baseboard heater thermostats that are rated for over 3000 watts but they wont work.
I hope that I feel better when I'm ridin' in that hearse.
rad14701
retired
Posts: 20865
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by rad14701 »

leob2 wrote:I'm not a electician but wouldn't a 600w light dimmer switch be to small for a 3000w heating element. I have been able to find a 1000w dimmer switch but don't want to spend the $40.00 if it will not work.
I have a metal box mounted to the side of the keg...I found baseboard heater thermostats that are rated for over 3000 watts but they wont work.
If you've read this topic, as well as the others related to power controllers, you should have discovered that the light dimmer is merely being used to control higher powered components like the alternistor mentioned above... There are several different circuits discussed here in the forums... You just need to pick the one that works for your needs and fits you building skills...
maheel
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 936
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:25 pm
Location: OZtralia in the lower half

Re:

Post by maheel »

pintoshine wrote:I am developing a kit for the 220-240 voltage systems.
The kit will include:
A circuit board.
Short leads to connect to power.
Short leads with lugs to connect a heating element.
40 amp triac with wires attached.
6 amp triac with wires attached.
power resistor with leads attached.
capacitor
Diac
variable resistor with wires attached.
Heat Sink
I will be posting pictures soon as I get the rest of the parts in. I will be posting a how to assemble guide as soon as I get the parts.
The circuit board design is done and I have prototyped one.
I will keep you up to date as progress happens.
Hi interested in these "kits" i am in Australia where are they coming from (PM me if location is an issues ect)

maybe i will just PM Pintoshine :?
akadjusters
Novice
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:01 pm

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by akadjusters »

Would someone please explain how to do this for 120 volts using a dimmer and triac a little more clearly? If I could decipher electrical diagrams, I probably wouldn't need help with this. I've wired a house, so I'm not totally clueless. If someone could show me the wiring strung out and perhaps labled I know I could do it. (I can prolly figure out how to cram it in a pretty box myself) :lol: part #'s would be great. any help is appreciated thanks.
snuffy
Swill Maker
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by snuffy »

I made some modifications to Pinto's schematic: adding an outlet to plug the element into, meters to monitor the power, a switch to go to full power and changed the dropping resistor to a light bulb. The light bulb serves as a current limiting resistor, just like the power resistor in Pintoshine's original design. I was hoping I could choose a bulb wattage so it would glow dully, but more on that later.

Image

The case was salvage from a computer power supply. The triac came from eBay, the meters from MPJA and the rest was in my junk collection.

Image

First step is figuring out how and where the bulky stuff fits. The dimensions of the parts provide enough constraints that things converge pretty quickly. At this point I haven't found a space to cram the outlet. The paper templates for mounting the meters are CAD printed at 100%.

Image

Image

The dimmer was too big, so I cut off the mounting tabs. The heat sink interfered with the leads from the dimmer, so it got major violence inflicted on it with a hacksaw and file.

Image

That left room for mounting the outlet.

Image

The leads for the dimmer were to short, so I extended them with a black wire to the lamp socket and a black wire to the triac gate with a yellow lead to the switch.

Image

Another black lead goes from the ammeter to the triac M2 and from there a red goes to the lamp socket.

Image

Two orange wires (twisted together) will go from the voltmeter across the outlet terminals. The two yellow wires to the switch go out of the picture at the lower right.

Image

Then the leads to the lamp socket are terminated. The wires go around the socket to prevent having a sharp bend right at the terminals. The switch wires go off to the left and the voltmeter leads go to the right.

Image

The supply line is connected: green to outlet ground, black with spade terminal is the hot to ammeter, the neutral to triac M1. Because things were so tight in the case, I had to dismount the heat sink for the triac. The heat sink is a CPU cooler less the fan. I ground the heat sink and the triac against a flat surface to confirm I would have good thermal contact. The white ties the ammeter to the outlet. The orange voltmeter leads are terminated across the outlet. The yellow switch leads won't be connected to the switch until the case is assembled.

Image

The heat sink is reinstalled and all the connections snugged down. The case is assembled (omitted to spare the squeamish - there was a lot of hacking, filing, drilling, grinding to get the case halves to go together. The switch mounts on the other half of the case, so it's leads run through the switch mounting hole and are soldered to the switch. Another brief but violent episode as the switch gets its little feet and locking tabs crammed back into the case. Finally, some new holes are drilled in the case to secure it -- the meters covered two of the original holes.

Image

The moment of truth: will it work or will all the lights in the neighborhood go out?

Image

IT'S ALIVE!!! (*deranged laughter that goes on for an unpleasantly long time*)

Image

The dimmer won't bring it up to full power - there must be a tiny delay before the diac fires, possibly because the voltage has to reach some minimum value before it conducts. Sadly, the bulb doesn't glow - the gate current for switching the triac must be very low. I settled on 25W by experimenting with wattages from 7.5 to 200. With wattages over 40W, the controller won't go below about 35%. This requires more experimentation.

Image

Secret Switch Saves the Day. By shorting directly across the dimmer, the switch clamps the triac into full conduction.

Image

make an esthetically pleasing knob for that massive feel of raw power and exotic excitement. A friend pointed out that since my entire house has only two 15A circuits for lights and outlets, I should just wire the thing straight into the mains and dim the whole house at once.
Time's a wasting!!!
Prana
Novice
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 3:20 pm
Location: Auckland

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Prana »

Hi,

Just starting to plan all the bits and pieces I need to build a still (probably a 40L boiler + 2" VM to start with). One of the items that is causing the most confusion is the heating element control. I could build one of the designs on here (some excellent descriptions), or use something like this http://www.sutronics.com/acatalog/detail_pc240-13.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow.
I had thought about a controller from an electric stove but read somewhere in all the posts on this topic that they switch the power on/off and therefore can cause surging in the column (sorry if that is not quite the correct description - I'm totally new to this and it is not the easiest topic to get your head around with all the TLA's and other abbreviations that abound). Can anyone tell me if the product in the link would work? I am leaning towards a 2400w element using 240v. Sorry if I have posted in the wrong place, did not want to start another element control thread and splinter the boards.

Many thanks.

Edit: Been contacted by Sutronics who recommend the BFM240-13 controller instead of the one above, it apparently does not cause the interference mentioned in Hooklines post below.
Last edited by Prana on Wed May 06, 2009 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
HookLine
retired
Posts: 5628
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:38 am
Location: OzLand

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by HookLine »

Hi Prana, welcome aboard

You are correct about stove controllers, they are either full on or full off, no good for our purposes, we need constant steady heat.

The Sutronics controller works very well. Will make any fluorescent lights nearby flicker a bit.

2400 w is a good size element for us Aussies and Enzeders, pretty cheap, and big enough to keep boil up times down to an acceptable time (never taken me more than about 75-80 minutes), but can be plugged into any standard household power outlet.

I strongly recommend you get the Incoloy coated version of the heating element, as they are much tougher and more resistant to corrosion. Most electrical suppliers will have them, or can order them in.
Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.
Prana
Novice
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 3:20 pm
Location: Auckland

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Prana »

Thanks Hookline, will get one of them ordered, just about to bid on a SS beer keg and hopefully that should get me off the computer and building something!!
eternalfrost
Trainee
Posts: 785
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:28 pm

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by eternalfrost »

Going to throw it out there since i didnt see it mentioned anywhere in this monster thread yet...

you cant go wrong with a variac. just plug it in and your done. no fussing with soldering components and heat sinks and melting parts. they just work and will still be working after your six feet under.

Image

can pick up the un-wired component style in the $20 range or the ready-to-use benchtop style pictured in the 50-80 range.
I wish i would have just gone with one of these to begin with insted of wasting hours of time and probably close to 50 bucks on blown out components trying to make my own.

a pintoshine style triac controller is great if your a wiz at building electronics but for the rest of us this is a great way to go for not much more money in the long run that wont risk frying you or burning down the house
HookLine
retired
Posts: 5628
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:38 am
Location: OzLand

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by HookLine »

Yup, a variac is a very good option, if you can find one.

The Sutronics controller is largely self contained. It only has to be wired up to the in and out plugs, and put in a box. It is somewhere between a full do-it-yourself build, and a ready to go variac.
Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.
stillvodka
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 432
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:13 am

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by stillvodka »

Sultronics controller works perfect, I ran one for a couple of years on my still, But remember they are only rated for 3 kw, Pintoshines will run over 4kw, I have just received mine from pintoshine, looks straight forward to me, cant see any difficulties with assembly. I would also like to say that Pintoshine is a 1st rate chap to deal with, genuine person.
Eternalfrost , how much does that controller cost? looks very expensive.
eternalfrost
Trainee
Posts: 785
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:28 pm

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by eternalfrost »

stillvodka wrote:Eternalfrost , how much does that controller cost? looks very expensive.
they are fairly cheap off ebay, especially if you wait a bit and scout for a good deal. ones with just the coil that you have to wire in directly yourself are in the 20-40 range
!BQ-0N!wCGk~$(KGrHgoOKjIEjlLmYd13BJ7oZFGgKg~~_1.JPG
!BQ-0N!wCGk~$(KGrHgoOKjIEjlLmYd13BJ7oZFGgKg~~_1.JPG (14.52 KiB) Viewed 6252 times
ones like the previous one which are fully wired and can just plug into an outlet are 30-100. i have the exact one pictured in the previous post and it was something like 50 with shipping. higher amp models generally cost more so only buy what you need.

they are definitely a bit more expensive then making your own from components. but as i said, unless you have previous experience and expertise with making your own electronics, a variac will be much easier, cheaper, safer, and higher quality in the end.

if you take into account the wiring, soldering iron, rosen solder, breakout boxes, etc that the average person would have to buy, the total prices come pretty close. plus there is total piece of mind that you will never be electrocuted etc. i just wired a standard plug onto my keg so i just plug the variac into the wall and the keg into the variac and i am ready to go.
stillvodka
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 432
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:13 am

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by stillvodka »

I don't need one now, but I have looked around and they don't seem that easy to find , out of curiosity, why did pintoshine and others go through the trouble of researching and building these controllers/regulators up ,if they are easy to get hold of. there has been long discussions regarding how to regulate heating elements for our Boilers,
I am just a bit :?
eternalfrost
Trainee
Posts: 785
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:28 pm

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by eternalfrost »

stillvodka wrote:I don't need one now, but I have looked around and they don't seem that easy to find , out of curiosity, why did pintoshine and others go through the trouble of researching and building these controllers/regulators up ,if they are easy to get hold of. there has been long discussions regarding how to regulate heating elements for our Boilers,
I am just a bit :?
well i dont know where your located, but variacs are a pretty standard piece of lab equipment and can be bought through any big lab supplier, at a very high price of course. they are also big in hobby electronics and your local supplier should be able to get a hold of one, again at a high price.

here in the USA ive never seen one in any store but again there are about 100 for sale on ebay at any given time at very reasonable prices, especially if you wait for a good deal.
http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_nkwZva ... R40QQ_mdoZ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

people have gone through the trouble of making there own because
-they like to tinker
-if you know what your doing and dont fuck up. it is much cheaper
stillvodka
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 432
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:13 am

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by stillvodka »

I took alook at the link, I am no electronics whiz, So those that are on on ebay would work perfectly for controlling a 4.5 kilowatt element.
Ugly

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Ugly »

stillvodka wrote:I took alook at the link, I am no electronics whiz, So those that are on on ebay would work perfectly for controlling a 4.5 kilowatt element.

They'd need to be rated for 20amps at 240V to control that 4.5KW element.

Those type of variacs aren't inexpensive.
eternalfrost
Trainee
Posts: 785
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:28 pm

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by eternalfrost »

Ugly wrote:
stillvodka wrote:I took alook at the link, I am no electronics whiz, So those that are on on ebay would work perfectly for controlling a 4.5 kilowatt element.

They'd need to be rated for 20amps at 240V to control that 4.5KW element.

Those type of variacs aren't inexpensive.
dont bother getting a 240V variac!!

the whole point of a variac is to reduce the power, just get the 120V variac and you will already start at 1/4 of the rated power for a 240V element.
you dont need control over the entire range of power. youll never need 75% power for instance. more like 100% for heat up and 10-30% for spirit runs.
Ugly

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Ugly »

eternalfrost wrote: dont bother getting a 240V variac!!

the whole point of a variac is to reduce the power, just get the 120V variac and you will already start at 1/4 of the rated power for a 240V element.
you dont need control over the entire range of power. youll never need 75% power for instance. more like 100% for heat up and 10-30% for spirit runs.
Running the column at 1125 through the hearts is too slow. That's even slow for/with the pot still head. While I agree you don't need the whole range, you need more than a 1/4 of the range offered by a 120 variac
eternalfrost
Trainee
Posts: 785
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:28 pm

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by eternalfrost »

His 4500W 240V element will put out 1125W at 120V. This is plenty to run a column. have to admit im not an expert on potstills but i would imagine this would be enough to run one as well

on my 2" reflux i only use in the ball park of 750W.
stillvodka
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 432
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:13 am

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by stillvodka »

When I last run a column still I ran two 1.5kw elements , ran both to get boiler up temp, then turned one off , ran roughly 750w from there on,adjusting temperature through a SULTRONICS power controller which are rated to 3.0 kw, I now have a Pot still with a 4.5kw stainless steel element, that is 11'' long, I have the boiler set on it's side, this element nearly reaches right across from one end to the other covers a lot of liquid, I would have used a sultronics controller, but they are rated lower than for my 4.5 KW , with my old setup it was about 1hour heat up, should be a lot quicker with the new one, I do think heat up time is near as important as run time, I think I will have more flexibility
those on ebay, I wouldnt know what I was buying :?
There was one thing I didn't ask when I bought my Pinto controller kit, Does it go all way up then down to 0 and that is off.
stillvodka
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 432
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:13 am

Re: Heating Element Control

Post by stillvodka »

Speaking to a electrician today, he does bit work for me and my Brother on a house conversion we are doing, got around to discussing my distilling hobby and about my new boiler, told him about me fitting a 4.5 KW element, first thing he said was how are you running that, have you got a separate 40amp consumer box fitted in your shed wired into the direct mains house consumer unit same as the cooker, felt and looked abit :oops: ,he said surly your not running from house socket 13amp plug socket, I said yes, never really thought about it, Kettle element is 3kw why worry always worked before no trouble.
Post Reply