Heating Element Control

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MuleKicker
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by MuleKicker »

RiskyWhiskey wrote:Thanks for the reply, MK.
MuleKicker wrote:How do you figgure? Your module should be seeing 240v
The element sees 240V, but the SSR only modulates one leg of that, hence the 120V. It operated exactly the same way when I tested it with a 120V lamp.
The module is in series as is the element, correct? The module has 240v going through it... Unless you have it wired up differently than the typical PSR schematic we have floating around here.
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RiskyWhiskey
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by RiskyWhiskey »

Yes, it's wired in series as most of the schematics for PSR/SSR controllers here illustrate. It's my understanding of 240V circuits that only the resistance/load actually "sees" the 240V because that's where the voltage differential actually performs work. Each leg supplying the current runs at 120V, correct?

I've seen some schematics here that incorporate a voltmeter to measure total voltage. They show the measurement across both legs to, I presume, measure the differential between the two (two out of phase 120V sources = 240V differential).

But for the SSR, it's only phasing one leg on and off. It doesn't see the differential - only the voltage of one leg.

I may be wrong, but this is my understanding of 240V systems and how it applies to our uses.
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Prairiepiss »

It takes two legs to make a circuit. One leg gives you nothing.
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by MuleKicker »

power-transformer-wiring.gif
power-transformer-wiring.gif (17.05 KiB) Viewed 10188 times
Here is the typical stepdown transformer that supplies power to your house, both 110/220v. If you connect accrosed the two outer wires, you get 220, not "110 on each leg for a grand total of 220". You have to connect to one of the outer wires, and the center neutral wire (labeled ground in the pic). That way, you are only using "half" of the transformer's winding, giving you, half the voltage.
Your module has 220v going through it.
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RiskyWhiskey
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by RiskyWhiskey »

Okay, you sold me. :mrgreen:

But why would the module, whose specifications clearly point out the different requirements in potentiometer resistances for 120V and 240V service, behave exactly the same when wired in series with a 240V heating element and a 120V light bulb using the same (470k ohm) potentiometer? What could I expect when I wire in the 250k ohm pot?

As you suggested previously, does this behavior indicate a faulty SSR?
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by MuleKicker »

I think you are deffinately dealing with a faulty module. Changing the pot to 250k and keeping 220v is going to make adjustment very touchy. I use mine on 120/240v with the 240v recommended pot. Keep in mind, I am talking about the actual United automation PSR25. Not the chineese knock offs.
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by mr_stiller »

I bought a 20 amp router speed control on Amazon for $32 plus shipping. It works just fine on my 120 volt 1500 watt water heater element.
I checked the heat sink temperature rise, on a four hour still run it got to 90 F. This is not a triac design, it uses a power mosfet with very low on resistance, so it is very efficient. :D
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Rum Bum »

How much money do you guys think you save a year in America in replace of propane?

And I can't find a thread on how to install an internal element into the keg, is it buried in this one?

RB
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Coaster »

Rum Bum wrote:.....Can't find a thread on how to install an internal element into the keg .....
@ Rum Bum,

For starters how about these ->

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=12205

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=16855

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8410

Using the Forum Search function will reveal others.

Regards,
Coaster
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by white_likker1 »

Build one like prarriepiss . huge heatsink and used thermal paste. We will see how it works this weekend.
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Coaster
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Coaster »

@ white_likker1,

Hope you have used mechanical fasteners (screws or nuts and bolts) to physically firmly secure the heat sink to the triac chip and not solely relying on those tie wraps to secure the triac chip to the heat sink. To effectually transfer the heat generated by the triac chip to the heat sink the triac chip and heat sink needs to be securely fastened together with mechanical fasteners.

Regards,
Coaster
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by white_likker1 »

Coaster wrote:@ white_likker1,

Hope you have used mechanical fasteners (screws or nuts and bolts) to physically firmly secure the heat sink to the triac chip and not solely relying on those tie wraps to secure the triac chip to the heat sink. To effectually transfer the heat generated by the triac chip to the heat sink the triac chip and heat sink needs to be securely fastened together with mechanical fasteners.

Regards,
Coaster
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by white_likker1 »

By the way, I learned a little trick today. I put the controller heatsink side down on the divider of my stainless kitchen sink while running. It provides a whole lot more thermal transfer and keeps the heatsink a lot cooler.
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Prairiepiss »

Nice job white liquor. Getting the heatsinks to mount on the back of the case is a little tricky. The zipties aught to work for a while. :thumbup: As long as they are high heat ones. :lol:

And that's not a huge heatsink. This is a huge heatsink. For my next controller. I have two of them. :mrgreen:
1330500045-picsay.jpg
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by MuleKicker »

Here is a great place to get heatsinks at a good price
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by alyeomans »

I think the phase angle power control is good because is mainly relies on the triac specs (volt and current rating) to operate. It will work on either 120 or 240Vac. What is does is chop part of the supplied AC wave off. The amount of chop on each cycle is decided by the triggering circuit which could simply be a resistor, capacitor and diac. Throw in a variable resistor on top and you have an adjustable power controller.

The output wave from these is quite dirty and maybe noisy to nearby susceptible circuits - TV radio etc. But the good thing is the heating element is purely resistive and does not care.

Al
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by white_likker1 »

Prairiepiss wrote:Nice job white liquor. Getting the heatsinks to mount on the back of the case is a little tricky. The zipties aught to work for a while. :thumbup: As long as they are high heat ones. :lol:

And that's not a huge heatsink. This is a huge heatsink. For my next controller. I have two of them. :mrgreen:
1330500045-picsay.jpg
geez, yeh that is huge.... :esurprised:
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MisterSteve124
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by MisterSteve124 »

Anyone have any idea how you'd wire 2 computer fans into a 240V controller?
MuleKicker
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by MuleKicker »

MisterSteve124 wrote:Anyone have any idea how you'd wire 2 computer fans into a 240V controller?
are they 12v or 120v? if 12v, your gonna need a transformer. If there 120v, your input is going to need 4 wires. 2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground. you would wire between 1 hot and the neutral to get 120. Same would go for wiring a transformer if you had a 12v fan. Unless you happen to get a 220v transformer.
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by MisterSteve124 »

They are 12v but I may just get a 120V to avoid the transformer. So all I would have to do is use only 1 hot and one neutral and that would bring it to 120? Pretty easy, thanks!
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by irishcarbomb »

so i finally put my controller together. with a voltmeter in the plug when i turn the potentiometer, it goes from 240-245 and then 245-240 when turned the opposite way. Is that only because I have no load on it?

wired with a 4 wire supply line. one leg (red, 120v) straight thru to plug, one leg (black, 120v) thru controller, ground to heatsink, white neutral capped.
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by rad14701 »

irishcarbomb wrote:so i finally put my controller together. with a voltmeter in the plug when i turn the potentiometer, it goes from 240-245 and then 245-240 when turned the opposite way. Is that only because I have no load on it?

wired with a 4 wire supply line. one leg (red, 120v) straight thru to plug, one leg (black, 120v) thru controller, ground to heatsink, white neutral capped.
I don't recommend running any controller without a load... Reason being that it is an open circuit on the output side...
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by irishcarbomb »

ok yeah i should've just tried it before i posted...works fine with element attached...disregard
cavalierlwt
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by cavalierlwt »

Hi all,
Just trying to wrap my head around this. How uncontrollable is the heat output if a person was just controlling the heating element the way stoves and such do, via turning the element on and off (electronically) for periods of time?

I was just thinking about how it would be to pulse it in somewhat short cycles, perhaps 5 seconds on, 5 seconds off etc, how bad does the temps surge in cases like that? Or 1 second on, a half second off, that kind of time frame? I realize there must be a pretty good reason for all hard work that you folks are putting into phase angle control, but I'm still curious to know if anyone has had any experience controlling a heating element the crude way, and if so what kind of time frame/duty cycle etc, and how bad the results were.
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by maheel »

cavalierlwt wrote:Hi all,
Just trying to wrap my head around this. How uncontrollable is the heat output if a person was just controlling the heating element the way stoves and such do, via turning the element on and off (electronically) for periods of time?

I was just thinking about how it would be to pulse it in somewhat short cycles, perhaps 5 seconds on, 5 seconds off etc, how bad does the temps surge in cases like that? Or 1 second on, a half second off, that kind of time frame? I realize there must be a pretty good reason for all hard work that you folks are putting into phase angle control, but I'm still curious to know if anyone has had any experience controlling a heating element the crude way, and if so what kind of time frame/duty cycle etc, and how bad the results were.
plenty have tried and using a stove type thing is just painfull as it does surge

your better off on gas heat than a electric stove

if you want to go electric then factor in the proper controller

you want steady continuous heat not on / off of a stove
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by rad14701 »

cavalierlwt wrote:Hi all,
Just trying to wrap my head around this. How uncontrollable is the heat output if a person was just controlling the heating element the way stoves and such do, via turning the element on and off (electronically) for periods of time?

I was just thinking about how it would be to pulse it in somewhat short cycles, perhaps 5 seconds on, 5 seconds off etc, how bad does the temps surge in cases like that? Or 1 second on, a half second off, that kind of time frame? I realize there must be a pretty good reason for all hard work that you folks are putting into phase angle control, but I'm still curious to know if anyone has had any experience controlling a heating element the crude way, and if so what kind of time frame/duty cycle etc, and how bad the results were.
Phase angle controller DO control electric flow in short pulses, like you are thinking, but in far shorter pulses... They do it 100/120 times per second for 50Hz/60Hz electricity which is why the current is so smooth... Some 555 timer based controllers have been made that control portions of a second but I'm not as impressed with this method... A five second or more time span could cause an imbalance which has been known to have an adverse effect on vapor production consistency...
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by VoodooKlan »

Ok, i'v read this post through a couple of times. I'm going to go with a SSR style controller to power a 5500w element in a 15g keg.

Now a couple of questions for the experts?

A) The PSR-25 is rated at 25a, would there be any benefit or harm in using and SSR rated at 45a? Would this still work on U.S. 240 25A service (i know i'm good on voltage but will the different amp ratings affect usage)?

B) The SSR i'm looking at is NTE part number RS3-1D40-21R. Link is http://www.nteinc.com/relay_web/pdf/RS3.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

C) Will this relay work? If ok, could i still use a pot to control? If so would the 250K 2 watt pot work? if not what recommendation?

D) Also, more basic question. I understand the difference between zero cross and random fire SSR. My local supplier who carries NTE line of relays (made by crydom) have what they call a triac version of the SSR, could someone please explain what the difference is?

Thanks again guys....and sorry for adding to this 70 page manifesto.....
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Anthoney »

that relay is just that a relay that turns on and off with an applied control voltage.

To control a device with just a pot you need this

http://www.sourcingmap.com/products_lis ... r/1%20/url" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Which is a complete phase angle controller in an ssr package for under a tenner...

Just a pot to control it and your golden. Hard to beat.

For more detail see YHB 's post called My temperature controller as he is the one I got the idea from. It can handle 25a at 240v and will benefit from being cooled with heatsink and fans. A voltmeter to show output is an easy cheap addition.
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by MuleKicker »

You need a relay that operates off of a resistance signal (potentiometer) Most SSrs have the same "footprint", the control and the load specs change. You can get a psr, or resistance relay that will operate 45A. Just have to read the specs. Most relays you see in the 8-10$ range operate on 3-32VDC.
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Re: Heating Element Control

Post by Anthoney »

Yes Mule is right. The link I posted is just a specific example of the type of resistance controlled SSR he is talking about. They are integrated phase angle controllers inside the same package as a standard SSR. It's good to know they can go up to 40A if you need it. The 25A example is good for 6kw on 240v; with cooling on the controller.
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