Heating Element Control

[VoodooKlan]

Thanks for the reply.

To make sure i understand this (and for any buddy else that doesn't) the SSR i listed above uses a voltage signal of 3-32 to control the SSR and to just use a POT to control i would have to get an SSR that is controlled via resistance signal.

Now just so i get this clear in my own head. In the "New Distillers Reading Lounge" under "phase angle control modules" in section "distilling with electric heat", MuleKicker you posted a setup using a an SSR controlled by a voltage signal. But if i understand correctly that is possible b/c you also used a "SSRman-1P Intelligent Phase Control Module" and transformer which i can presume is what controlled the rate of fire of the SSR via signal voltage and not resistance signal. And that the "SSRman-1P Intelligent Phase Control Module" is controlled via resistance signal.

I've read other threads where PID controllers where used in manual mode (or percentage mode) to control an SSR. Would the signal out of the PID controller not be voltage? Then may i presume that the SSR would also have to be voltage controlled?

Thanks, if i have that clear, i've just learned something new today. I will be sticking to the PSR style setup and will be ordering parts this week. I was hoping i could source them locally, but oh well, simplicity factor wins.

[MuleKicker]

Correct. Some of these guys are just buying a standard 3-32V SSR and connecting it to a pot. This will not work, and I was basically saying, dont be fooled by the way the ssr looks, you have to read the specs for the way you are using it.

[Andy Capp]

For those of you who use a keg with a 2200w element try one of these. I purchased the MXA056 a while ago and it hasn't faulted. Took in to the local Jaycar shop and fitted a box and turn knob to it. Cut up an extension cord for power and away she went. Rated to 4000w but i would stick to 2400w or under. Cost under 50.00 all up no hassles.
Appologise if this unit has already been discussed but i searched and found nothing.

[Andy Capp]

Perhaps if i include a link it might be helpful
http://www.kitstop.com.au/page13.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[peanutaxis]

For my small, first still I only need about 800 watts. So I have just purchased this product. It seems to work well:

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.as ... rm=KEYWORD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

There is also this product, which sounds like a kit which you need to put together (solder) yourself, but which will take 10 Ampere (~2300 Watts):

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.as ... rm=KEYWORD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow



These are from an Australian (+online) store. Sorry if these have been mentioned before in the infinity of pages here!

[Anthoney]

Here is a link to the right controllers in 10, 25, 40, 60 and 100A versions.

http://www.uxcell.com/search.php?catego ... ctSearch=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[deastham2000]

I use this.
http://www.sutronics.com/acatalog/detail_bfm240_13.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Simply connect to 240v power supply and my 3000W boiler, bypassing the thermostat on the boiler. I attach it to a biscuit tin to dissipate the heat.
Dave E

[Andy Capp]

This is great. Keep the links coming. Perhaps we should have a seperate sticky thread just for links to ready built controllers. They play such an important role in distilling but not everyone is able ( like me ) to build these things from seperate components. Just an idea thats all.

[MexicanCustard]

Mule Kicker, I'm no electrician/electrical engineer but do you see a problem with using a Crydom MCPC1225 in lieu of the SSRMAN-1P and SSR?

[MuleKicker]

Mule Kicker, I'm no electrician/electrical engineer but do you see a problem with using a Crydom MCPC1225 in lieu of the SSRMAN-1P and SSR?

You could. The part number you gave is only rated for up to 140V/25A. I would think you would want something rated for 220V. You could essentially get a router speed controller to do a 120V controller, if thats what your after. Prolly cheaper.

[Anthoney]

I looked at the Suntronic link and would like to make/repeat the point that some of these controllers work in different ways and you should be aware of what it is doing and how. The Suntronic device is a burst fire controller while the other devices we were looking at are phase angle controllers.

Whole cycle, or burst fire control, in which the thyristor is switched on at the start of a supply cycle and switched off again after one or more cycles (or half cycles).

Phase angle control, in which the thyristor is switched on (fired) at some delayed time after the start of every half cycle, and switches off at the end of the half cycle (when the current falls to zero). With zero firing delay the whole half cycle is conducted. As the firing delay is increased less and less of the half cycle is conducted.

Burst fire means the heating element is at full power for some length of time, multiples of around one second in the case of the suntronic device. The on off cycle is varied to give different average power but the power is always full when it is on. So if you set the control for half you will not get half your supply voltage powering your heater you will get all your supply voltage powering your heater every other second.

AC voltage goes up and down in a sine wave varying from zero to peak voltage. Zero is across the centre line of the sine wave and the half cycles above the centre are one polarity direction and below the centre line the other direction, hence Alternating Current. Phase angle control gives a variable voltage output by choosing when in the cycle to turn on. Phase angle control effectively clips the tip off the sine wave and so limits the power provided according to how much is clipped off. So if you set it for half you will get half your supply voltage powering your heater.

Arguably phase angle control is a better option apart from the possibility of generating radio interference. This is not always a problem in practice but can happen.

Both work though and opinion is only that. My personal preference for phase angle is just me. Others will have their own opinion.

[rad14701]

True, burst fire can provide cleaner power with less noise but I prefer phase angle control because it requires far fewer components to achieve the same end result... I have never had noise issues and have even tested for it at my friends electronics shop...

[MuleKicker]

I second that rad. Noise is not an issue on this small of a load. If ya think about it, every dimmer in your house, whether it be for a ceiling fan, or light. Is phase angle controlled. And never been a problem

[peanutaxis]

Hi all,

I know that motor controllers muck around with the sinusoid in the AC voltage but I'm still wondering whether it would still be possible to stick an ammeter in the circuit to use as a 'volume' control, so that it is easier to dial up the same power each time?


thanks
p

[Anthoney]

Panda used both a voltmeter and an ammeter on his power controller, using a phase angle control module and a pot. He found the ammeter redundant and only the voltmeter was needed to dial in the same results each time.

Burst fire controller might find an ammeter more useful.

It really does depend on the type of "motor controller" you are using.

As I said, more than one type and they work differently.

The fastest a burst fire controller can possibly switch is twice your mains frequency so 100 or 120 times a second for most people. The one linked was only once a second. Not as smooth. This switching speed will effect how it looks to an ammeter. Too slow and it will seem to wobble or surge. Depends on the ammeter as well of course, how sensitive and responsive it is.

[peanutaxis]

Thanks,

Yeah I tried a voltmeter on mine and it didn't work. Don't think I'll bother trying an ammeter then.

[MuleKicker]

Burst fire controller might find an ammeter more useful.

Not true. If you have ever hooked an ammeter up to a burst fire controller it dances around alot and will not give you a clear figure. Where as with phase angle control, the needle will go up and down smoothly

[crazyk78]

OMG...I've just returned to this forum from many months away and can't believe this thread is still going

Got me pissin in my pants. I haven't been over all the new pages but for those of you who have....is there some kind of repetition going on?

This thread is sending me ........

[rad14701]

OMG...I've just returned to this forum from many months away and can't believe this thread is still going

Got me pissin in my pants. I haven't been over all the new pages but for those of you who have....is there some kind of repetition going on?

This thread is sending me ........

It sure beats 50 repetitive topics scattered throughout the forums...

[Anthoney]

Burst fire controller might find an ammeter more useful.

Not true. If you have ever hooked an ammeter up to a burst fire controller it dances around alot and will not give you a clear figure. Where as with phase angle control, the needle will go up and down smoothly

Well, I think I indicated that possibility and the modifying factor that it depends on the rate of burst fire and the type of ammeter you use. Moving iron for example would have a little more inertial mass than moving coil.

I know it all works smoothly on phase angle. Another reason they are my personal preference. It's just not needed as the voltmeter does a fine job for dialling in.

If a volt meter does nothing for him and he has it connected right then he probably has a burst fire module. So an ammeter is his only hope. yes it is unlikely to provide a clear steady reading except in the unlikely (more expensive unless you make it yourself)event he has one that is firing at twice mains frequency or at least mains frequency. The Suntronic one linked, with a firing rate of one second, would jump wildly for example. 100 to 120 times a second and you are doing better.

[Anthoney]

It sure beats 50 repetitive topics scattered throughout the forums...

+1

[MisterSteve124]

Just finished wiring my 240V 5500W but I am having problems with it. Simply, when I plug it in, it doesn't work and the ammeter isn't reading any Amps. I don't think that I wired it wrong, but here is a diagram of what I did just in case. How does it look? See any problems?

[MuleKicker]

are you using a psr25 or a chineese module? Is the amp meter rated for amps ac? What is the pot rated at? and what pot is the module calling for? If you have an ohm meter, do a sweep on the pot. If that checks out, you have a bad module. (provided it is wired up exactly as you have pictured)

[MisterSteve124]

Everything is wired up exactly as pictured. The PSR is a chinese module for 40A, the pot is rated for 2 W, the ammeter is AC, and I'm not sure what you mean by what mode is the pot calling for. I was having trouble figuring out what way to wire it. I think I did legs 1 and 2.

[rad14701]

For testing purposes, try to simplify things by bypassing both the switch and ammeter... And remember that you have to have the heating element in the circuit for testing as the elements resistance is required for the module to trigger... You can also jump across terminals 3 & 4 which should cause the module to apply full power to the element... That will leave either the module or the element as the culprit if no heat is generated... And always make sure the element is submerged in water as it only takes seconds to fry it in thin air...

[MisterSteve124]

Yes I did have the element hooked up and fully submerged when testing, but i will try bypassing both the ammeter and switch and the potentiometer to try and pinpoint the problem. Ill give it a go tonight and let you know. Thanks

[MisterSteve124]

No luck testing it today. After trying about everything I decided to pull out the multi meter. When I tested a hot and ground it was about 100V AC and when I tried the other it was the same. But when I tried both hot it said like 1. What is this about? I can't figure out if its something wrong with my breaker, or my heating element. Any ideas?

[MisterSteve124]

Wow, just about positive I found out what is wrong:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_you_have_a ... s_125v250v
This is exactly what is happening to me, so looks like I probably took apart and tore up my wiring for nothing. I'll move the breaker down a spot tomorrow after work and give it a try.

[Odessit]

Sorry if I repeat someone else's answer ...

MisterSteve124 , Your circuit consists of four elements, and each of them may be faulty. You should check them out consistently, from simple to complex.

First, check the voltage at the input and output of switch with a voltmeter or an electric lamp at 220 (240?) volts.

Then check the PSR-25 by eliminating him from the chains - set a wire jumper (2.5 sqr mm) between the terminals 1 and 2. If the heater starts heating up, you must change PSR.

If not, check out your ammeter. Try to remove it from the circuit by connecting a wire from the heater directly to the switch, or using wiring jumper. If the heater starts heating up, I will congratulate you.

If not, check the heater. Connect it directly to the switch for check

oops... !
The heater may has a built-in regulator. If the regulator there is, check his setting. If termperature setting is low, set it above.
...

Do you remember about a heatsink? PSR will be broken without him within short time if load will be 20 amps.

Good luck!

[Odessit]

When I tested a hot and ground it was about 100V AC and when I tried the other it was the same. But when I tried both hot it said like 1. What is this about? I can't figure out if its something wrong with my breaker, or my heating element. Any ideas?

Multimeter shows "1" because voltage between two "hot" more than he could show. Turn the multimeter from 200 VAC to 700 or 1000 VAC.