On a double pole switch for 240VAC the White (Neutral) is not switched. The Black and Red are switched. For 120VAC both the Black (hot) and the Neutral are switched. I'm not sure what you are calling "common." That is a dangerous term with electricity because it is used for almost everything.
pointhunter75 wrote:I'm meaning neutral, I don't know why I said common....
No biggy. It's funny how jargon works. I'm still learning the jargon here but in the controls world I'm pretty fluent.
I hope that helps. BTW I like the idea of solid state relays and SCRs. Both can manage power.
SCRs produce a DC current in most cases. So you are controlling voltage which controls the heat. It's not easy to vary AC voltage without using a transformer. Transformers in general are not variable.
As for the fans I would shut down or switch to full control if the temp in the control box started to climb. The easy way to do that is to use a simple temp switch and a relay.
I know it's a bit complex. Simplicity leaves town when you start building controls for something like this.
They make SSRs that will switch both legs on a 220V circuit. Much safer setup. Also keep in mind, you should ALWAYS use a second, independent controller and TC (or RTD) to do nothing but act as an Over Temp Cut-off (OTC). The output from the OTC should be your Source voltage for the main Heater controller. I am an IC&E tech and I specialize in temperature controls. I gut and re-build a couple of old lab ovens per week that burn up because they either were not designed with an OTC, or because somebody before me decided to put a bypass jumper in at some point. These SSRs do sometimes fail Closed (energized) and will burn up. Sometimes, the TC can fail at room temp.. and is lying to the controller which keeps pouring on the heat, thinking it's not there yet, even though it's literally on fire.
Always have an OTC... they even make manual OTCs that work like a thermostat on a car radiator. Basically a thermal switch that can cut your power if it gets above a pre-selected temp.. say..212 F ?
pointhunter75 wrote:Where is my incoming common from the wall plug going to on the dual pole switch? I really need pic the completed box internals.
@pointhunter75
Here is the diagram form the Levition site for the 30 Amp, 120/277 Volt, Toggle Double-Pole AC Quiet Switch, Extra Heavy Duty Spec Grade, Self Grounding, Back & Side Wired
5-String wrote:SCRs produce a DC current in most cases. So you are controlling voltage which controls the heat. It's not easy to vary AC voltage without using a transformer. Transformers in general are not variable.
Do you have a reference link to this information because it flies against my research and understanding, going back decades... AC voltage is not hard to vary... Simple Triac based phase angle controllers, like we use in this hobby and that I build regularly, control AC voltage very easily with a minimum of parts - no transformer required... These so called "switching power supplies" are far more energy efficient than transformers... I also have a new 240V 4000W SCR that I purchased which produces, you guessed it, AC power...
So the still is done, now on to the wiring of the controller.
This is how I think it should work
10/3 - 220v with 30a breaker
Black (110v hot) and white (110v hot) into 2 pole switch - ground to ground on switch
both "out" legs from switch to 10,000w SCR
Black (110v hot) and white (110v hot) out of SCR to element - tied to ground from the power "in"
SCR-tied to ground
from here I get confused:
220v fan needs to tie to out from switch, simple enough, but I am used to using 10g wire and that aint what is on this fan....is that an issue?
I ordered a DROK 2 wire volt meter (thought I ordered an Amp meter), again no where near 10g wire, should both of the wires on the meter tie to the "out" from the SCR?
Thanks....just waiting on wire glands to get here Monday then I can start this last project.
I can not thank everyone enough for all the help they have provided.
TxBrewing wrote:So the still is done, now on to the wiring of the controller.
This is how I think it should work
10/3 - 220v with 30a breaker
Black (110v hot) and white (110v hot) into 2 pole switch - ground to ground on switch
both "out" legs from switch to 10,000w SCR
Black (110v hot) and white (110v hot) out of SCR to element - tied to ground from the power "in"
SCR-tied to ground
from here I get confused:
220v fan needs to tie to out from switch, simple enough, but I am used to using 10g wire and that aint what is on this fan....is that an issue?
I ordered a DROK 2 wire volt meter (thought I ordered an Amp meter), again no where near 10g wire, should both of the wires on the meter tie to the "out" from the SCR?
Thanks....just waiting on wire glands to get here Monday then I can start this last project.
I can not thank everyone enough for all the help they have provided.
TXB
The gauge of the wire is based on the LOAD. The fan and meter are drawing minimal load, therefore the wiring is smaller.
TxBrewing wrote:...and my amp meter is actually a volt meter...I ordered the wrong darn thing....
Yea, I have both gages on my control panel. But the ammeter is the most valuable. The volt meter doesn't really change all that much unless I really roll off the power. Most adjustments are visible with the ammeter alone...at least enough to tell you about how your still runs best. In the end, it's not exactly how much power you're using...rather, it's the "repeatability" of finding your optimum setting. The ammeter is a better measure of that.
And I very much prefer an analog meter because it is great at "averaging" power adjustments. Dynamic, but "old school".
ss
TxBrewing wrote:So the still is done, now on to the wiring of the controller.
This is how I think it should work
10/3 - 220v with 30a breaker
Black (110v hot) and white (110v hot) into 2 pole switch - ground to ground on switch
both "out" legs from switch to 10,000w SCR
Black (110v hot) and white (110v hot) out of SCR to element - tied to ground from the power "in"
SCR-tied to ground
from here I get confused:
220v fan needs to tie to out from switch, simple enough, but I am used to using 10g wire and that aint what is on this fan....is that an issue?
I ordered a DROK 2 wire volt meter (thought I ordered an Amp meter), again no where near 10g wire, should both of the wires on the meter tie to the "out" from the SCR?
Thanks....just waiting on wire glands to get here Monday then I can start this last project.
I can not thank everyone enough for all the help they have provided.
TXB
Thanks asking this, it's gonna help me. I've become little hesitant to ask questions .
TxBrewing wrote:
Just looked my 10/3 is
Black - Hot A
White - Hot B
Green - Equip Grnd
TXB
Yep, that's 10/3 all right. Silly me, I assumed we were talking about the more common 10/3 with ground. Since you don't need 110 for anything you're in good shape. If it was intended for public consumption, the white should be marked with tape to indicate it is not a neutral, but that is just a human thing, the electrons don't care. That's what I get for assuming.
I also have both a voltmeter and ammeter. The ammeter is definitely the more sensitive indicator of power as long as it reads the right range. You can always add one later if you want.
Nice touch with the top hat knob. I'm pretty fond of the "cream of chicken head" style, myself.
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
5-String wrote:SCRs produce a DC current in most cases. So you are controlling voltage which controls the heat. It's not easy to vary AC voltage without using a transformer. Transformers in general are not variable.
Do you have a reference link to this information because it flies against my research and understanding, going back decades... AC voltage is not hard to vary... Simple Triac based phase angle controllers, like we use in this hobby and that I build regularly, control AC voltage very easily with a minimum of parts - no transformer required... These so called "switching power supplies" are far more energy efficient than transformers... I also have a new 240V 4000W SCR that I purchased which produces, you guessed it, AC power...
I figured you would be the one. I said most SCR applications produce DC not all. S C R stands for silicone controlled rectifier. They were designed from the beginning to rectify or produce DC. Triacs and SCRs are very similar in operation. A triac is little more than two SCRs back to back. The result is the same. They do reduce voltage but they sacrifice a true sine wave. Not that it matters with a heating element or to a prima Dona.
The closest we can get to a true sine wave without a transformer is an IGBT inter gate bipolar transistor. I'll tell you what, I'll be all nice to you when we are talking distillation. You be nice to me when talking about controls. I could teach you more than a few things if you don't piss me off any further.
5-String wrote:SCRs produce a DC current in most cases. So you are controlling voltage which controls the heat. It's not easy to vary AC voltage without using a transformer. Transformers in general are not variable.
Do you have a reference link to this information because it flies against my research and understanding, going back decades... AC voltage is not hard to vary... Simple Triac based phase angle controllers, like we use in this hobby and that I build regularly, control AC voltage very easily with a minimum of parts - no transformer required... These so called "switching power supplies" are far more energy efficient than transformers... I also have a new 240V 4000W SCR that I purchased which produces, you guessed it, AC power...
I figured you would be the one. I said most SCR applications produce DC not all. S C R stands for silicone controlled rectifier. They were designed from the beginning to rectify or produce DC. Triacs and SCRs are very similar in operation. A triac is little more than two SCRs back to back. The result is the same. They do reduce voltage but they sacrifice a true sine wave. Not that it matters with a heating element or to a prima Dona.
The closest we can get to a true sine wave without a transformer is an IGBT inter gate bipolar transistor. I'll tell you what, I'll be all nice to you when we are talking distillation. You be nice to me when talking about controls. I could teach you more than a few things if you don't piss me off any further.
You haven't posted any information that those of us with at least some electronics background don't already know about SCR's... When you make the statement about SCR's providing DC it clouds the water for those with very little such background because the DC component of "some" SCR's has little bearing in regard to our intended use... Most members here don't even know the difference between a SCR, PSR, or SSR for that matter, and that could be something worth covering in a topic of its own... They just want to know what parts work for powering a heating element and measuring the AC component, not DC... We are controlling AC voltage in and out so let's focus on AC only for discussions here to limit possible confusion... Fair enough...???
pointhunter75 wrote:I'd still just like to see a pic of the inside of ddizles completed box....... He must be mia.
As soon as I get mine done today or tomorrow I will post up a pic of the inside.
Pretty simple build on mine, 10/3 power in
2 pole switch
220v PC fan
10,000w SCR
10/3 power out
pointhunter75 wrote:I'd still just like to see a pic of the inside of ddizles completed box....... He must be mia.
As soon as I get mine done today or tomorrow I will post up a pic of the inside.
Pretty simple build on mine, 10/3 power in
2 pole switch
220v PC fan
10,000w SCR
10/3 power out
Here is mine ready to wire. All 240v with 10/3 plus ground cable. No external fan yet but the scr has one. I'll get one ordered soon and add it. For now I just want to see this thing work and boil some water so I can start my first ujssm to fermenting.
pointhunter75 wrote:Here is mine ready to wire. All 240v with 10/3 plus ground cable. No external fan yet but the scr has one. I'll get one ordered soon and add it. For now I just want to see this thing work and boil some water so I can start my first ujssm to fermenting.
Looks good pointhunter75. Layout seems functional. One last thing...do not rely on the SCR fan... it really isn't enough in a closed space and several members have had those fans fail and the SCR burn up during a run....
rgreen2002 wrote:Looks good pointhunter75. Layout seems functional. One last thing...do not rely on the SCR fan... it really isn't enough in a closed space and several members have had those fans fail and the SCR burn up during a run....
Keep at it...going great!
Thanks rgreen, I'll order me a 120v fan.
I basically copied ddizzles . Pretty much identical setup.
