10,000w SCR vs SSR

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rgreen2002
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by rgreen2002 »

Use one of these:
The Hotpod
The Hotpod
wire it up:
wired.jpg
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by TxBrewing »

I use pig tails.

Male plug out of the element that plugs into the female end coming out of the controller.

I will take a pic in just a sec.
Sorry I didn't get a pic of the complete inside of the box, but no it is not an option.
I really should have used a bigger box, this one is packed...lol
IMG_2186.JPG
TXB
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by TxBrewing »

rgreen2002 wrote:Use one of these:
hotpod.jpg
wire it up:
wired.jpg
this is exactly what I use....
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by pointhunter75 »

rgreen2002 wrote:Use one of these:
hotpod.jpg
wire it up:
wired.jpg

I've already got a 1" bung welded in my keg.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by skow69 »

TxBrewing wrote:Yep

Forgot to tie the ground to the switch itself

Fan works now so that circuit is good
Filling the keg now to see if the element will fire
Sorry TB but that has to be a coincidence. If grounding the receptacle switch made something work, then you got way more problems than we know about.

The thing is, the green wire, or equipment ground, or safety ground, or grounding wire is not a current carrying conductor, ever. It's there to keep you from getting fried when you are making toast in the bathtub, but it doesn't give a damn if anything operates or not. It's too busy trying to keep your non-electrician ass above ground.

Just for giggles why don't you disconnect that ground and see if the fan runs or not. You may still have some gremlins in there.
Shoot a pic of your wiring and post it, too, ok? It's hard to get everything perfect when you're packed in tight like that. Safety first and all.

Good luck.
Last edited by skow69 on Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by TxBrewing »

Thanks for the reply Skow.

To be clear, because terminology is important when you are talking about electrons.

Not sure what receptacle we are talking about in your post. The wall receptacle was installed by a certified electrical contractor.

The other receptacles and plugs in the controller are all tied to that ground.
The element is grounded to the keg inside the element enclosure.

The 2 pole switch, the item I forgot to tie to the grounds, did not work without the grounding wire.
It did after I grounded it. I used 10g wire for the ground to the switch, but I only had black or white, so I used white (not ideal)
After that I plugged it in and the fan worked, so I connected the element, prepared the keg, turned the SCR to the Zero (off) position and turned it on.

It all seemed to work as it should, and I asked my neighbour to stand by as I touched the keg in cased it tried to bite me. It did not (that was scary, btw and prolly not the smartest thing I have ever done)

The SCR trims the power as it should, and I ran it until I had steam from the keg, but that is not saying much it was about 30F yesterday.

I will open the box up today after I get home from some things I got to do, and post up some pics.
In the end, I know just enough to get me hurt or the house burnt down, and I will always take help when it is provided.

Thanks

TXB
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by skow69 »

My bad. I typed receptacle when I meant switch. But the point remains the same. The ground terminal on the switch doesn't even connect to anything active in the circuit. It is just bonded to everything conductive to drain off any stray voltage. Everything that the ground connects to will never have any voltage in it unless there is a fault. The whole device will operate perfectly fine without the ground connected to anything, it would just be a little less safe if something went wrong.

Anyway I'm glad it is working for you. I'm sure the original lack of output was just due to testing without a load. So everything is probably fine, but that is an interesting coincidence that the fan started working when you grounded the switch. It wouldn't hurt to disconnect that ground from the SWITCH and verify that the fan and the heating element still work without it, just for peace of mind. If the fan dies when you disconnect that ground, then you've we've got more troubleshooting to do.

Sorry about the receptacle/switch confusion. I've only got about 6 brain cells left, and sometimes they all get busy doing other stuff when I'm trying to type.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by TxBrewing »

Ok, here are pics, they will be hard to see, so I will do my best to discribe them. Also, the wall is a 4 wire, but I only ran 10/3 out of it, I did not wire the Neutral.
All the plugs are wired the same way:
G-Ground - Green wire
X-Hot 1 - Black wire
Y-Hot 2 - White wire
Blk wire with blue connection is switch ground.  Wire nut is all the grounded connections, power in and out for SCR
Blk wire with blue connection is switch ground. Wire nut is all the grounded connections, power in and out for SCR
Left side power power in from supply, right power out to fan and SCR, power in and out from SCR
Left side power power in from supply, right power out to fan and SCR, power in and out from SCR
10/3 power in from supply. Power out to fan and SCR.  Green wire is SCR ground. black wire under is switch ground
10/3 power in from supply. Power out to fan and SCR. Green wire is SCR ground. black wire under is switch ground
All the grounds tied together. Black and white wires at the top are power out of switch to SCR. and the 10/3 is the power into the switch.
All the grounds tied together. Black and white wires at the top are power out of switch to SCR. and the 10/3 is the power into the switch.
The element is straight forward, 10/3 black and white power out of the SCR, ground ties to all the grounds at the wire nut in the controller and to a ground lug in the element housing.

I said in my post before I used white wire for the switch ground, but as we can see here it was black.
I will make a table for it before I close the box up.

Hope this helps
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by rad14701 »

TxBrewing, this isn't related to your ground issue but your controller will cool better if you remove that blue plastic film from the aluminum cage... It is not intended to be in place during operation... It's just there for assembly and shipping purposes... It will act as an insulator, not allowing the controller to cool as well as it will with it removed... That was the first thing I did with my 4000W version while I was opening it up to see how similar it was, circuit-wise, to the controllers I build from scratch...
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by TxBrewing »

I will do that for sure

Did you happen to see any obvious issues with my wiring


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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by TxBrewing »

skow69 wrote:

Just for giggles why don't you disconnect that ground and see if the fan runs or not. You may still have some gremlins in there.
Shoot a pic of your wiring and post it, too, ok? It's hard to get everything perfect when you're packed in tight like that. Safety first and all.

Good luck.
Just checked to see if the fan would run without the switch grounded, and it dud as you said it would.

Please take a look at the wiring and let me know if you see something amiss.
I am inclined to thing that with everything being stuff in the box so tight, a wire might have been jamming the fan blade.
It all seems to be running fine, and I will move forward using it, unless we can come up with a reason not too.

In the end, whatever caused the the fan not to spin, I am thankful for it because it had me at least ground the switch.

TXB
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by pointhunter75 »

Double check mine too please. 240v gonna be using 10-3 plus ground. Just ordered 230 fan to add. I'm gonna wire it to come on when plugged up whether the switch is on or not. I got my 3/4" wire glands today but can't find my 1 1/8" hole saw bit so I can't run my main wires into the box till I find it...
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by skow69 »

Just checked to see if the fan would run without the switch grounded, and it dud as you said it would.

Please take a look at the wiring and let me know if you see something amiss.
I am inclined to thing that with everything being stuff in the box so tight, a wire might have been jamming the fan blade.
It all seems to be running fine, and I will move forward using it, unless we can come up with a reason not too.

In the end, whatever caused the the fan not to spin, I am thankful for it because it had me at least ground the switch.

TXB
Glad to hear that. I don't mean to be a pest but I didn't think it was fair to let you go on thinking the switch needed a ground to be a switch.

I hate to even mention this, but technically your switch wiring violates code. The wires have to wrap around the screw clockwise so that tightening the screw tends to wrap them tighter rather than push them out. As long as we're here the wrap must go 2/3 to 3/4 the way around the screw. Of course it won't work any better that way.

If you want to make your switch ground legal just strip all the insulation off of it. The grounding wire can be either green or bare.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by TxBrewing »

I never thought that you were being a pest, simply just looking out for members.



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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by FuelMaker »

TxBrewing wrote:Ok, here are pics, they will be hard to see, so I will do my best to discribe them. Also, the wall is a 4 wire, but I only ran 10/3 out of it, I did not wire the Neutral.
All the plugs are wired the same way:
G-Ground - Green wire
X-Hot 1 - Black wire
Y-Hot 2 - White wire
IMG_2187.JPG
IMG_2188.JPG
IMG_2189.JPG
IMG_2190.JPG
The element is straight forward, 10/3 black and white power out of the SCR, ground ties to all the grounds at the wire nut in the controller and to a ground lug in the element housing.

I said in my post before I used white wire for the switch ground, but as we can see here it was black.
I will make a table for it before I close the box up.

Hope this helps
Eeeep! Your green wire isnt supposed to be a current conducting wire, it's strictly a safety ground.

If at your plug you wired it into the ground pin unplug the damn thing RIGHT-FREAKING-NOW. If so you just energized every metallic case in your house - like your washing machine case or any metal conduit in the house and you're a mouse fart away from a house fire.

If on the other hand you wired it into the NEUTRAL (white wire) at the plug you're okay, technically your appliance isnt to code because you dont have a safety ground but at least it's not a dire danger to to the house.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by TxBrewing »

Ok
Help me understand

All my green wires are grounds.
Where do you think I have gone off the rails?

@FuelMaker, just sent you a PM!
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by FuelMaker »

Replied to PM, I'm going to also put it here for everybody else to look at if you dont mind:

If you're actually using the ground as a safety chassis ground and it's not carrying any current than I apologize and I interpreted your photos and discussion wrong and you're fine.

Keep in mind "ground" doesnt mean "a hot return" - that's the white "neutral" wires job. Ground and neutral are bonded together in your main panel box but the charge stays in your panel box because it's also bonded to a grounding rod in the same panel box and current follows the path of least resistance. If however ground is used as a hot return the circuit will still work because of the ground/neutral bonding in the main breaker box, but you've also now energized all the grounded metal chassis on that house circuit because the crossover point is outside your breaker box. This is actually horribly simplified but it should get the idea through.

If you're using the green wire as a hot return to provide 120V to something in your box you'll need to rewire your plug to the wall. Move the Green wire in your cable to W neutral you'll be fine. You'll still be able to tap 120V out of it but the return will go to neutral as it should.

If you have a mixed 240V and 120V in your control box what you've made is called a "multiwire branch circuit", er sort of. Actually it resembles a multivolt RV hookup more than anything...

Also, make sure your green wire is sized to carry the current load. Standard 10/3 is intended to have 240V on the two hots and the green is there to provide a safety ground and by code safety grounds can be smaller than the current carrying conductors. It'll depend on the wire manufacturer 10/3 is often 10-10-12 or 10-10-14.

If I remember right the only thing you're using 120V is to power a fan so that isnt enough power to actually energize the chassis grounds of whatever is on that house circuit with enough current to melt anything and cause a fire - the fan wiring would melt first. Of course if it's a spark in a dusty area like around a dryer....
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by skow69 »

Let's get back to basics here. Color codes exist for a reason. A green wire can NEVER be used to carry current because anyone who looks at it is entitled to believe it is the equipment ground.Do not connect it to the "W neutral." It can only be connected to the green screw on a switch or receptacle or the chassis of an appliance. If you need a neutral use a white wire.

Your use of the white as a hot in this case is allowed as an exception but it is a good idea to put a wrap of black or red tape around it at each termination.

Fuel maker, the fan is 240 volt so there is no need for a neutral. There is also no need to muddy the waters with talk of neutral bonding at this level. Please see the NEC distinction between the grounding wire and the grounded wire.

And PLEASE strip the insulation off that black wire you are using for a ground. Black is hot.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by TxBrewing »

skow69 wrote: And PLEASE strip the insulation off that black wire you are using for a ground. Black is hot.
Already done!!!!!

TXB
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by pointhunter75 »

I wasted money when I bought the 10-4 wire since I later decided to order a 240 fan instead of 120. What should I do with white wire coming from wall? Nothing I suppose. My 10-3 from box to the twist lock plug has black, white, and green. I black taped the white wire, which Will go to one of the hot legs on the element.
Got to see my box light up last night bit still gotta get my plug rigged onto my element/leg. I think im gonna put some liquid electrical tape over the switch screws.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by skow69 »

TxB, thank you.

Pointhunter, looking good. Just cap off the white wire inside your box with a wire nut.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by pointhunter75 »

Got my 92mm fan and gonna have grind out one of the lines that runs from the top screws down to the bottom of the box....figures. The fan won't fit flush in the inside unless I do that.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by skow69 »

You don't want to mount the fan on the outside?
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by pointhunter75 »

skow69 wrote:You don't want to mount the fan on the outside?
Originally planned on it but don't want wires outside the box. The 2 little terminals are on the top edge of the fan.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by GrassHopper »

Just about have my controller built. Here is the layout showing how it will be wired. Since I only have a 3 prong 220 plug for my supply, I am a bit concerned
about grounding the neutral to the box. I also am putting my amp meter "inline" with the load. I didn't have a coil with mine so I assume this is correct?
Comment's?
P1020603A.jpg
edit: okay, so I used the wrong terminology, my bad. It is a ground, not a neutral. I have corrected my terms on my schematic.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by masonsjax »

There is no neutral wire in a three prong 240v circuit.
Two hots and ground.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by skow69 »

+1. We already discussed this, ad nauseam. PLEASE get an electrician!
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by GrassHopper »

skow69 wrote:+1. We already discussed this, ad nauseam. PLEASE get an electrician!
Thanks masonsjax for the correction of terms. I have corrected my schematic.
Skow, I did study this subject "adnauseum". For well over a week I spent many hours daily researching and studying every topic on controllers before building. Stating that I am nervous about 220 grounding is just an opinion. Putting up my schematic for scrutiny after I have done my due diligence? I don't get why that is a problem. I built my house 40 years ago and wired the 220 according to local code. Since then 4 wire is now used with neutral, (for safety reasons) so yes, I am paranoid with the older wiring. Doesn't mean I don't understand it, it just means it makes me nervous. As for the ammeter, putting it inline on the output seemed the best option based on what I have read. Oh, BTW, I ran a TV repair business back when tubes were cool, so I am not totally stupid when it comes to electrons.
But, I am way older now and my smarts and memory are fading. Please be patient with me. I don't pretend to know everything and depend on those of you who do.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by masonsjax »

I don't think anyone is impatient with you. I think this is dangerous stuff that can seriously hurt or kill someone. You're giving indication that you don't completely understand the details that make this dangerous, so yeah, you should be nervous. For example, neutral was not added for safety reasons, that's what ground is for. Neutral allows for using multiple circuits of differing voltage in a single device. Please understand that your (and your family's) safety is our only reason for responding here.
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Re: 10,000w SCR vs SSR

Post by skow69 »

Ditto.
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