Fart Bubble Hypothesis

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Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby Mr Sippy » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:35 am

I have a liebig sort of condenser I copied from Brutal; it has 3 tubes and some scrubby tucked in the center. I have always run it attached to the thumper. Toward the end of a run it will chuff and spit pretty hard, in fact it’s a signal to me the run is over.

On my last run, I was sniffing the vapor tube, checking for fog and just keeping an eye on things. While sniffing, I could feel the ‘chuff’ on my cheek. After sniffing for a bit I noticed the chuffs seemed to be in lockstep with the ‘thump’. Bending over further to use my ear the correlation was unambiguous. It was like a stethoscope. My ear was acute not only to sound of the thump but the chuff pressure difference. Big thump, big chuff – little thump, little chuff. Although I can also hear the roiling of the liquid, the bigger thumps and simultaneous chuffs harmonize perfectly to my sense abilities. I hear the thump and feel the wave on my eardrum simultaneously.

From my readings I thought the chuff was due to something called shock cooling or vapor collapse. I postulate instead: The heated particles in the thumper liquid not only break free of surface tension but also as a (sometimes big vapor bubble from below, sorta like in the bathtub :oops: . This sudden release of vapor from the liquid produces a pressure wave or pulse. It gives up some energy (maybe a lot) causing the ‘thump’ and moves thru the system, losing strength along the way until it emerges at the end of the vapor tube as a little bitty ‘fart’.
I don't think it's my imagination. To me, the correlation is so distinct as to be axiomatic.

Not here to spit in the soup over venerable theories. Others may disagree. These were my observations in my circumstances at that time. If it matters, my experience is not deep and I have only stilled a handful of times.

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Re: Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby Fart Vader » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:03 pm

Hmmm, apart from chuff and thump, there's a lot pretty big words in this post.

Sorry for the the off-topic post, but the fart caught my eye. :wave:
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Re: Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby Pikey » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:30 pm

Sounds right to me !

I'd be concerned over how much ethanol is being pushed through your condenser - as gas - every time it thumps. :shock:
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Re: Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby The Baker » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:27 pm

Pikey wrote:Sounds right to me !

I'd be concerned over how much ethanol is being pushed through your condenser - as gas - every time it thumps. :shock:


Just supposing, the outlet was somewhat below the surface of the liquid, instead of above it.

Any ethanol (or at least a part of it) in the farts might be saved???

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Re: Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby der wo » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:59 am

Here I wrote something about huffing:
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=58447&p=7361576#p7361576
If you have to use much water, most of the vapour collapses at once at the beginning of the liebig. That causes a shock, the liebig gets a kick and starts to swing. The swinging is maintained by further shocks like a flagpole in the wind. Perhaps you have noticed, it's always the same frequency, only the amplitude of the huffing is different with the wattage you put in. Like a bell: you can hit it harder and you get a louder sound but not another frequency.

Every still has a frequency. Perhaps in a more complicated system with a thumper it's different. But normally either you have to build the still very solid (large diameters, oversized condenser) and perhaps think about smooth reducing the diameters from lid to product outlet. Or run it slow. At the end of a run the huffing can be very strong. It's because the volume difference between gas and liquid of water is way higher than the one of ethanol. This causes heavier shocks.
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Re: Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby Mr Sippy » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:28 pm

Der Wo:

My argument is merely a hypothesis but considering your points:
Wouldn't the huffing have to be of a regular periodic frequency to set up a resonant frequency, if this is what you're referring to? Huff seems too irregular for me. My huffing occurs perhaps 1/sec maybe 1 per 2 sec, not consistent in magnitude or frequency.

I argue the huff is greater in the later stage because there is considerable more latent heat in incoming vapor resulting in a more 'explosive bubble' breaking surface.

The liquid boils when vapor pressure is equal to or greater than pressure exerted on the liquid by the surrounding environment. I think you might agree there is a sudden pressure increase in the vessel, boiler or thump, when greater pressure vapor breaks surface. If so, where does the pressure go?

I distill at a pretty slow rate (I think), 8 oz per 10/12 min. Placing a teaspoon under the spout and look at the amount of distillate collected in between huffs (cant be more than a couple ml). Can this little amount giving up 50 degrees of heat (based on coolant temps) be responsible for such perceptible, albeit weak, force?

Finally I have supreme difficulty letting go of the belief that I can actually hear/feel the simultaneity of the thump/wave.

Thank you for providing a thoughtful response. I accept the phenomena of vapor collapse. I just don't think its responsible for the magnitude of what I observed and experienced. I suspect the correlation is more discernible with the thumper (larger void, at least in my case). I am interested in what others may perceive upon their observations.

As I said, I didn't intend to be contrary for contrary sake; but sometimes sacred cows make good hamburger :twisted:

Cheers

Edit: Just thought of this: If I were to to withhold coolant water till vapor only emerged (I know, doors open fan on) and could still hear/feel the huff; QED?
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Re: Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby der wo » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:43 am

Sippy,

perhaps my fault. I never ran a thumper. I have experience with huffing only with simple potstills. Perhaps I shouldn't post in a thumper huffing thread...
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Re: Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby Pikey » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:28 pm

The Baker wrote:
Pikey wrote:Sounds right to me !

I'd be concerned over how much ethanol is being pushed through your condenser - as gas - every time it thumps. :shock:


Just supposing, the outlet was somewhat below the surface of the liquid, instead of above it.

Any ethanol (or at least a part of it) in the farts might be saved???

Geoff


Working on the same principal as a thumper ? - the LAtent heat of vapourisation would again evaporate some of the distillate - I think :cry:

or if it did help, then the "collection in small jars for cuts" would be out of the window ?

Nobody else seems to have reported this problem, my feeling is that the condenser is too small - Perhaps an additional condenser would cure it ?
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Re: Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby Pikey » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:30 pm

Pikey wrote:
The Baker wrote:
Pikey wrote:Sounds right to me !

I'd be concerned over how much ethanol is being pushed through your condenser - as gas - every time it thumps. :shock:


Just supposing, the outlet was somewhat below the surface of the liquid, instead of above it.

Any ethanol (or at least a part of it) in the farts might be saved???

Geoff


Working on the same principal as a thumper ? - the LAtent heat of vapourisation would again evaporate some of the distillate - I think :cry:

or if it did help, then the "collection in small jars for cuts" would be out of the window ?

Nobody else seems to have reported this problem, (EDIT - or perhaps they are not noticing ? ) my feeling is that the condenser is too small - Perhaps an additional condenser would cure it ?
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Re: Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby RedwoodHillBilly » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:44 pm

Pikey wrote:
Pikey wrote:
The Baker wrote:
Pikey wrote:Sounds right to me !

I'd be concerned over how much ethanol is being pushed through your condenser - as gas - every time it thumps. :shock:


Just supposing, the outlet was somewhat below the surface of the liquid, instead of above it.

Any ethanol (or at least a part of it) in the farts might be saved???

Geoff


Working on the same principal as a thumper ? - the LAtent heat of vapourisation would again evaporate some of the distillate - I think :cry:

or if it did help, then the "collection in small jars for cuts" would be out of the window ?

Nobody else seems to have reported this problem, (EDIT - or perhaps they are not noticing ? ) my feeling is that the condenser is too small - Perhaps an additional condenser would cure it ?


And this adds info how?
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Re: Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby The Baker » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:24 pm

Just supposing, the outlet was somewhat below the surface of the liquid, instead of above it.

Any ethanol (or at least a part of it) in the farts might be saved???

Geoff[/quote]



And this adds info how?[/quote][/quote]

Doesn't add information at all. It's a thought, for those more knowledgeable than me to consider and comment on.

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Re: Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby Pikey » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:35 am

It's not you Geoff, I double posted - I think that's what he's getting at :lol:
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Re: Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby Mr Sippy » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:56 am

Pikey- condenser is triple tube... distillate comes out cool... actually thought I overbuilt.

I know I get overly verbose so I want to summarize my central thesis. A boil breaking surface creates a pressure wave that travels through and exits the condenser. It also causes the thump. Using the end of the condenser as a stethoscope of sorts imparts a noise and perceptible puff on the eardrum. The simultaneousness of this is unmistakable, to my ear. The vapor collapse, as a separate event, contributes to the puff, but at order(s) of magnitude less.

Because this was a one time event, clearly I need additional observation and even consensus of others experience. I suspect it is less noticeable thru a boiler and possibly amplified by the thump keg. Other variables, such as foaming, have been suggested as having a mitigating effect.

It may be a bit before my next run. If others try this I ask that you try the 'stethoscope' for correlation and also starve coolant at the end of the run. If the puff disappears in absence of condensation; the fart hypothesis fails.

I named the hypothesis in a momentary relapse of adolescence :oops: If it should have more proper name, please name it. :) Thank you for interest.

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Re: Fart Bubble Hypothesis

Postby The Baker » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:58 am

Pikey wrote:It's not you Geoff, I double posted - I think that's what he's getting at :lol:


No problem! Easily done.

Nonetheless my comment stands; I just wondered if, maybe....

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