Dephlegmators

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Usge
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Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

Just wanted to start a separate thread on this topic. I spent the last 2 weeks trying to get my dephlegmator and water routing setup and working with much frustration. Trying to freewheel water pressure from faucet was an exercise in frustration....as well as trying to balance flow between liebig and depleg. Using output from product condenser (liebig in my case) was beneficial in that it preheats the water..allowing for a somewhat more responsive depleg...and a little bit more control over it while trying to balance flow between the 2.

My next step was in adding a needle valve to the bottom input. This works fine...but there has to be a way to bleed off excess pressure so a Y or T fitting to split the lines was involved. The issue here was no matter what I tried, the water would always flow entirely out the opposite side of the T., leaving my deplheg starved for water. Evidently, this has something to do with Bernoulli's law...and the problem is the volume of the dephleg..is much greater/larger than the hose feeding it. This introduces a constant back pressure that has to be overcome. I read some where the way to do it was to reverse the water flow, (ie., make the bottom the output) and make sure the split in the line came above the water line. I read elsewhere..to make sure it was done below the water level of the delph. :roll: As it was..I tried every possible combination of possiblities I could think off until I was exhausted. None really worked. I even sealed up the other end of the T, and made a tiny pin hole it...trying to introduce some backpressure into the system. It didn't change the behavior. The dephleg was still starved..and the water flow erratic. EVEN with the valve wide open. So, I pinched the hose shut...it "still" fought it's way past...although that did eventually cause some water to go into the dephleg.

I recognized this could work to solve this issue by simply using a valve (and/or manifold) for the output/release to keep enough back pressure in the line to make it all work — this seems to be the method most people use..whether they use Y with 2 valves, or a manifold with 2 valves off the product condenser. I tested it by placing a PVC valve on the output and balancing that with the overall water flow so that the delph would function properly. While it did work to some degree...it also meant having to balance the flow with the pressure...and fiddle with 2 valves. It was still rather precarious and I was determined to get rid of any "Y" or T line feeding the dephleg. This just had to go. It was far to fiddly and nothing "really" worked or gave the very fine control I'm gonna need.

After looking at some images, reading, etc...the next thing I tried was moding my dephleg head. I added another input nipple to it..just below the top one..on the back side..to use as input from the liebig/product condenser. And I put the needle valve on the bottom...now used to control "output" (reversing flow). And I put a drain/overflow tube onto the original top/left output nipple. This...worked like a charm! I can feed my deplh from the liebig, without having to worry about backpressure/flow issues. If the rate of flow in is more than it is out..is simply drains off the top maintaining a full delph. Moving the needle vavles ..even in very small increments, was working great. And going even from full open, to full closed..and back...didn't screw up the water flow (ie., cause a vacum, etc). I've only tested this with water...but so far...it seems to work really well and allows for very fine adjustment.
Delph_1a.jpg
Delph_1.jpg
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by olddog »

Usge wrote:After looking at some images, reading, etc...the next thing I tried was moding my dephleg head. I added another input nipple to it..just below the top one..on the back side..to use as input from the liebig/product condenser. And I put the needle valve on the bottom...now used to control "output" (reversing flow). And I put a drain/overflow tube onto the original top/left output nipple. This...worked like a charm! I can feed my deplh from the liebig, without having to worry about backpressure/flow issues. If the rate of flow in is more than it is out..is simply drains off the top maintaining a full delph. Moving the needle vavles ..even in very small increments, was working great. And going even from full open, to full closed..and back...didn't screw up the water flow (ie., cause a vacum, etc). I've only tested this with water...but so far...it seems to work really well and allows for very fine adjustment.
This is why when I designed the original Flute, I installed a restrictor valve on the output from the dephlegmater, It means that the dephlegmater is always full, and prevents syphoning, and a precise coolant flow can be maintained.



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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

The problem I've been seeing (dealing with) is water not even "getting" the dephleg in the first place (much less whether it's full or not). Using T, Y, etc., the water would simply run out the opposite side and never get to the dephleg input to start with (this was my problem). The only way to solve that (using T, Y, etc) was to "drive" it with more pressure...either from source, or through the use of a manifold with i/o valves. The above config..solved this issue for me, without using a 2nd valve, and I don't have problem wiht siphoning. (the liebig/product condensor is always running more output of water than the dephleg). The vent valve, takes care of any pressure issues related to imbalance, etc. The output from liebig feeds directly to the depleg without Y or T or sharing pressure in the line with the output. It can flow at the rate it needs to. Any excess bleeds right out the top.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Kentucky shinner »

So you are feeding your dephlag from the top is this correct? And you are controlling the level with your needle valve on the bottom with a over flow on the top? Interesting!
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by LWTCS »

Kentucky shinner wrote:So you are feeding your dephlag from the top is this correct? And you are controlling the level with your needle valve on the bottom with a over flow on the top?
I can't help but wonder if the emphasis on counter flow is just not the same critical influence as counter flow on the product condenser. As we have been reminded the dephlegmater is a "partial" condencer.

With just enough flow and power management to execute a 100% full reflux period,, there is a temp equilibrium that can be achieved. Bet some kind of scrubby or something within the water jacket to offer turbulance would assist in achieving an equilibrium more efficiently and also mitigate perceived counterflow benefits. Then by bumping power input (more plates are best for more power) you can easily draw off product,,,,,,,For me counter flow is an absolute non issue.......guess I make shitty likker :relaxed:
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

Kentucky shinner wrote:So you are feeding your dephlag from the top is this correct? And you are controlling the level with your needle valve on the bottom with a over flow on the top? Interesting!
That's it KS. My original setup had simple i/o (one at the very top, one at the very bottom). What I did was "add" a 3rd nipple in the back..just under the level of the top/existing one. (it's right at the line of where the reducer fitting is towards the back) and I run my liebig output to there. The needle valve controls output from bottom in this layout. The warm water from the liebig fills the dephleg to the point that it is full, and it drains off the top...avoiding any excess pressure build up, etc..., or having to drive/control pressure in the lines in order to keep water moving to the deplheg, etc.

I studied at the Wile E Coyote school of physics...so I'm sure I'm missing something...probably obvious. But, at least in terms of "water flow' through the system...this allowed for the most control. The one potential pitfall I can see, and I won't know till I test it with alc...is that it may be harder to control the temp at the top of the delpheg...given the constant (unmetered) direct flow from the liebig output. I'm guessing that might cool the top of the dephleg enough that it could cause a temp gradient with cooler water at the top. It's just going to depend on how much flow I need to the liebig. If I can flow the liebig so theb temp of the water is close to optimal operating temp for the dephleg (ie., some hwere around 180F I assume), I think It will be fine. If the water from the liebig is too cold..it will cause a cooling at the top of the delpheg and keep vapor from coming out. Yet to be tested.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

LWTCS wrote: I can't help but wonder if the emphasis on counter flow is just not the same critical influence as counter flow on the product condenser. As we have been reminded the dephlegmater is a "partial" condencer.

With just enough flow and power management to execute a 100% full reflux period,, there is a temp equilibrium that can be achieved. Bet some kind of scrubby or something within the water jacket to offer turbulance would assist in achieving an equilibrium more efficiently and also mitigate perceived counterflow benefits. Then by bumping power input (more plates are best for more power) you can easily draw off product,,,,,,,For me counter flow is an absolute non issue.......guess I make shitty likker :relaxed:
You may well be right LWTCS. Basically, as far as I got at this point...was just figuring out how the water flowed best through the various parts I needed hooked together. Yet to be seen what, if any, impact it has on distillate/vapor in operational mode. I do know...working "with" gravity, as opposed to against it...makes things easier :). Bout as far as I got in the Wile E Coyote school of physics.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by mash rookie »

I am curious to see where this goes. I used separate drains lines on m dephlag and Graham so I could see how much water I had coming out where and at what temp.

I had a hard time yesterday finding the sweet spot. It was a little easier when I ran the boiler harder.

I am guessing that is because of the coarse control of the ball valve, or it might be siphoning when run slow. I am going to try a siphon break or a simple flow restrictor on the exit line. If that doesn’t help I will change my ball valve to a gate valve for finer control.
Good Luck Usge.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Kentucky shinner »

I always run quite allot of heat in mine. As soon as my new boilers get here I will be running on Electric. I am getting one of Mulekickers MK11000 units. I will better be able to control my heat then I think and will know more about what kind of heat I run. Now i go by the sound of my burner. but I run it pretty hard. I control the take off totally by the water flow to the dephlagamater. I don't run a valve on my drain at all. I will be making a new video and posting it on my website when the come in. The should be here within the next 2 weeks.. :Damn I hope so ... Keep it up Usage I find this interesting reading.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Kentucky shinner »

LWTCS wrote:
Kentucky shinner wrote:So you are feeding your dephlag from the top is this correct? And you are controlling the level with your needle valve on the bottom with a over flow on the top?
I can't help but wonder if the emphasis on counter flow is just not the same critical influence as counter flow on the product condenser. As we have been reminded the dephlegmater is a "partial" condencer.

With just enough flow and power management to execute a 100% full reflux period,, there is a temp equilibrium that can be achieved. Bet some kind of scrubby or something within the water jacket to offer turbulance would assist in achieving an equilibrium more efficiently and also mitigate perceived counterflow benefits. Then by bumping power input (more plates are best for more power) you can easily draw off product,,,,,,,For me counter flow is an absolute non issue.......guess I make shitty likker :relaxed:
I bet your Likker is good stuff.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

Me too :D
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by wildrover »

Kentucky shinner wrote:I always run quite allot of heat in mine. As soon as my new boilers get here I will be running on Electric. I am getting one of Mulekickers MK11000 units. I will better be able to control my heat then I think and will know more about what kind of heat I run. Now i go by the sound of my burner. but I run it pretty hard. I control the take off totally by the water flow to the dephlagamater. I don't run a valve on my drain at all. I will be making a new video and posting it on my website when the come in. The should be here within the next 2 weeks.. :Damn I hope so ... Keep it up Usage I find this interesting reading.
What heating element will you use with the MK11000 unit? Do they make ones bigger then 5500 watts?
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by guittarmaster »

I thought I would share this video of my delph running. I'm use the Y and two valves approach. I filmed this quickly to demonstrate the system and and as such was not making a run. That being said there would normally be an "out" line off my leibig condenser. The leibig and the condenser "out" are independent tubes so what I do to one does not affect the other. Also, as discussed in another thread my delph 7" long in a 2" pipe and not as sensitive as USGEs delph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrqnmoUY0ik

I like this thread topic. Most answers concerning running a delph are hidden in that novel of a flute thread, I feel It's a good idea to further separate these more complicated still designs into smaller, more reader friendly threads. but just my 2cents tho.

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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

Kentucky shinner wrote:I always run quite allot of heat in mine. As soon as my new boilers get here I will be running on Electric. I am getting one of Mulekickers MK11000 units. I will better be able to control my heat then I think and will know more about what kind of heat I run. Now i go by the sound of my burner. but I run it pretty hard. I control the take off totally by the water flow to the dephlagamater. I don't run a valve on my drain at all. I will be making a new video and posting it on my website when the come in. The should be here within the next 2 weeks.. :Damn I hope so ... Keep it up Usage I find this interesting reading.
KS, you run a manifold off your product condenser output with 2 valves, don't you? Isn't one valve to control flow from the manifold (output) to dephleg, and the other is to drain and control back pressure? That's what most look like, in so far as what I can see.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by hackware »

guittarmaster wrote:I thought I would share this video of my delph running. I'm use the Y and two valves approach...

GM

watched yer vid...

the water lines were both pinched at connectors...

being that the dephlegmator is a very low back-pressure device, any movement of a line so pinched could cause large changes in flow...

(just old process control history, still very noob to distilling...)

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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

The one obvious difference (and possible problem...we'll see) with my setup by comparison is that there is no way to completely "stop" the flow "to" the dephleg (given there always needs to be flow to/from product condenser). I'm hoping this isn't going to be an issue....but wont' know till I test it more. May end up having to gate the input as well somewhere. Where's that ACME truck?
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Kentucky shinner »

I think you may be right usage. The only time I ever stop the water all together is when I hit tails. Other than that you always need some water to the dephlagamater in my opinion anway.. I appluad your experimenting.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

I figure what's the worse that can happen? If worse comes to worse and I have to redo things...I'll just put a valve on the nipple at very top and use it as a bleeder valve/vent to prime the dephleg. Thanks for the encouragement KS :)

btw: I finished a 2 plate module add-on, so I can run up to 4 plates now. Still, I'll be testing with 2 plates till I get things sorted. Then I'll add the other 2 and see what she can do.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by hackware »

could i get a pic of your dephlegmator internals...?

still trying to wrap my brain around just what a dephleg is, and how it differs from other condensers...

william...
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... &start=320

Bottom of page.

Probably others here be better at giving descriptions of how it works. But, I"ll try and let them correct or add to it.
It's basically being used in these designs as a reflux and partial condenser. It's a shotgun design (multiple smaller tubes) sealed up inside the top of the head. The idea is...when you flow water to it..it condenses part of the rising vapor to liquid and fills the column/plates below... and a more refined portion of the vapor passes through the top moving on to the final product condenser. It's main job is to fill the plates with liquid. But it also controls the vapor take off (ie., what passes through) by having an internal temp and flow rate of the water that is at a balance point between how much gets returned to the plate, vs how much is being taken off (or allowed to pass through it). In these designs...the deplegmater can also be used as a total reflux condenser returning all vapor to the column.

Taking water from the output of the product condenser pre-heats it, and makes it quicker to respond. When you make adjustments..you have to wait a few mins..for everything to catch up....ie., the water will heatup enough in the dephleg for it to start to allow vapor to pass through, etc. The trick is in controlling this..ie., stabilizing it at a certain point without it going back and forth all over the place. However, taking output from your product condenser adds some complication for the water routing setup...given that the product condenser will require a good deal more water flow than your dephlegm will. So, some sort of method/setup is needed for maintaining proper flow to both. I'm hoping this works (above). But, have to wait and see.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

Just finished a cleaning run (vinegar/water) to see how the new deplegm setup would work. It's a bust. :cry: While the water flow works well in so far as being able to control it....not being able to control the flow from the water source means...that while I can heat up the water in teh bottom of the deplegm by closing the valve...it just keeps pumping cooler water through the top of the dephlegm and the water never got over 150F...and that was with running the liebig about as far down as I could (ie., hot). Trying to run cold water off the tap into it from a T didn't work either. There was a sweet spot with flow...where the amount coming in, was equal to the amount going out. But, it was too much cooling. I definitely need pre-heated water, and control over the flow of it going in.

So, just like the Coyote...its back to the drawing board for the dephlegm. There was one piece of good news...my new 2 plate module add-on seemed ok. (now can run 4 plates). No leaks, etc. Pray for small miracles. Off to the ACME catalog again for more parts.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by hackware »

Usge wrote:http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... &start=320

Bottom of page.

Probably others here be better at giving descriptions of how it works. But, I"ll try and let them correct or add to it. ...
thanx... that helped a lot... :clap: :thumbup:

william...

ps. if i can wrap my brain around your flow problems, i might be able to help...
(did lab process control for a few years eons ago...)
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by myles »

One possible solution to this is to use a small header tank.
The liebig output fills the header tank and the surplus overflows back to your main supply. The header tank fills the dephlegmator from the top but with the flow control on the output. The dephlegmator and small header tank are always both full and you can have any flow rate you like through your dephlegmator.

The problem comes when you try to recombine the two return lines as there is a pressure difference between the output from the liebig and the output from the dephlegmator. Either run two lines or feed them both into a bigger diameter hose leading back to the reservoir so there is no back pressure into your dephlegmator output.

EDIT: You might be able to do away with the header tank by lifting the T in the supply line above the dephlegmator. That way there is standing water in the tube feeding the dephlegmator and you are not pushing cold liquid directly into it.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Kentucky shinner »

I run mine strait off the spicket and i have a pump that I use to recirculate at times. I have a valve on my drain line also that I can close up if needed to make sure I get the water flow through the dephlagamater, but still allow water through the drain also. This way you always get 100% flow through the product condenser. I dont know for shure if this is the same problem your talking about but it works great with my set up.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by myles »

This might work for you!

My representation of the dephlegmator is symbolic not actual, but the main coolant flow will be through the upper chamber. The dephlegmator chamber should be able to achieve lower flow rates, with the baffle preventing excessive mixing of the coolant.

Image
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

Thanks all for suggestions/reply. It's helpful. Still going through it in my head. I've tried "T" lines...they don't work (regardless of where you put them) unless you pressure them up, and put valves on each side. I think I'm going to dump the liebig (cause I use that for other things/rigs as well) and make a 1" shotgun product condenser (with 1/8" tubes) using 1/2 going in and coming out. Not sure how long it would need to be (suggestions?) I want to keep the water coming out "hot", while still knocking everything down. Then, I'll run 1/2" manifold with male NPT nipples for 2 ball valves off the output (as per KS suggestion). This should allow me to control that side of the equation. On the deplhegm side..I'll leave the output/needle valve as it is. I'll put another needle valve/vent on the very top nipple (to bleed air out and prime the dephlegm, and basically use as a check valve per OD), and use the slightly lower i/o I just made in mid-back as the feed in from the manifold/condenser output.

Already have some parts on the way. But, wanted to throw this around a bit more (Coyote falling off cliff, holding very small umbrella over his head).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz65AOjabtM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Here's what I'm thinking.
Project.jpg
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by olddog »

That is the valve system I designed for the original Flute
001_crop.jpg
Here is the rear view showing the restrictor valve on the dephleg output.
002_crop.jpg
I have since changed this system design to a single 3 way valve with an internal T configuration, this automatically bleeds the pressure when the supply to the dephlegmater is reduced.
003.JPG
There is no need for a restrictor valve using this system as the pressure remains constant automatically. :D



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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

Dang OD...I looked for one of those 3way "T" valves and never could find one (despite buying 3 different 3 way valves). The only ones I've seen here are "L" pattern and can only have one side or the other active (ie., middle is "off").

I can't see the back on your new setup...so I don't know what output goes where...but let me see if this is right. The bottom bar is the manifold (output coming off the product condensor) which goes into the middle of the 3 way valve. The left side (facing) from the 3 way valve goes to dephlegm and the right side is drain. And your depghlem is plumbed backwards from mine (ie, you are feeding it through bottom, and it exits through top?) Is that it? Or are you feeding it from top? (I don't see an exit on the dephlegm).

That sure looks a lot simpler :) ...even a coyote can see that.
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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by olddog »

Here is a pic of the rear of the column, it might make it clearer.
002.JPG
This is where I get my valves, the guy is very helpfull, he might post overseas if you offer to pay the postage.http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-3-way-ta ... 0609368327" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


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Re: Dephlegmators

Post by Usge »

I see :). Are you feeding the dephleg at the top and also exit/output/drain at top? ) Or does the "in" tube go all the way down to the bottom? ie, through the laminar fins,vapor area etc., down into the dephlegm..to the very bottom? Or just to the top? Thanks for the link!
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