Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water cooling!

Anything cooling/condenser related.

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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by shadylane »

That will work. Five feet of condenser should be more than enough for a hotplate heated boiler.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by mason jar »

Lookin' good raketemensch :thumbup:
raketemensch wrote:I'm still using the straight length from Mason's OP, and am very happy with it:
Once it's on the 36" column on the keg, the length won't matter so much.
To be honest, I don't think I'll need the 5 foot length. I was debating why I seem to be getting faster cooling that some of the other experiments (as much as 20 degrees of cooling over 6" of pipe), and I think it's because my fan is 8-10 inches away from the fins, blowing upward. The gap provides a large channel of cool air to push from the fan to the fins, and of course convection already wants the hot air to rise.
I'm not going to shorten it until I've got the 2" column up and tested, though.
Yeah, you will need much less than a 5 foot length for the hotplate still. If you're moving to a keg
(I'm assuming internal electric or open flame heat) you might want to stick with 5 feet. That way
you can really crank it up for a stripping run and still knock down all the vapor. Looks like you got
plenty of space to work with so I say just stick with the length you have.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by raketemensch »

mason jar wrote:Yeah, you will need much less than a 5 foot length for the hotplate still. If you're moving to a keg
(I'm assuming internal electric or open flame heat) you might want to stick with 5 feet. That way
you can really crank it up for a stripping run and still knock down all the vapor. Looks like you got
plenty of space to work with so I say just stick with the length you have.
Once I get the 2" column build, I have a 3 foot length of baseboard that I'm considering playing with putting on top of the stockpot column, just to see how much reflux I can create by aiming a fan at fins on top of the column.

I don't expect anything amazing, it's just that I have it, and it's making my brain itch.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by mason jar »

raketemensch wrote: Once I get the 2" column build, I have a 3 foot length of baseboard that I'm considering playing with putting on top of the stockpot column, just to see how much reflux I can create by aiming a fan at fins on top of the column.
Ah, I see. A reflux condenser. That makes sense. I guess 5 foot would be a bit of overkill. 3 should work just fine.
raketemensch wrote: ...it's making my brain itch.
That made me chuckle :ebiggrin: I am so gonna use that one.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by RandyMarshCT »

raketemensch wrote:
Once I get the 2" column build, I have a 3 foot length of baseboard that I'm considering playing with putting on top of the stockpot column, just to see how much reflux I can create by aiming a fan at fins on top of the column.

I don't expect anything amazing, it's just that I have it, and it's making my brain itch.
The MK-1 air cooled reflux still that Riku has in his book, "Designing and Building Automatic Stills" uses two of these lengths situated in a "V" on top of a 2" reflux column. If you look at the cover of the book, there is a picture of it.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by raketemensch »

RandyMarshCT wrote:
raketemensch wrote:
Once I get the 2" column build, I have a 3 foot length of baseboard that I'm considering playing with putting on top of the stockpot column, just to see how much reflux I can create by aiming a fan at fins on top of the column.

I don't expect anything amazing, it's just that I have it, and it's making my brain itch.
The MK-1 air cooled reflux still that Riku has in his book, "Designing and Building Automatic Stills" uses two of these lengths situated in a "V" on top of a 2" reflux column. If you look at the cover of the book, there is a picture of it.
Thank you, fellow nutmegger, I'll have to find a copy.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by LBHD »

raketemensch wrote:I'm still using the straight length from Mason's OP, and am very happy with it:
thumb_IMG_5811_1024.jpg
(No, that's not vapor coming out of the pipe, it's a ball under the stairs in the background)

Once it's on the 36" column on the keg, the length won't matter so much.

To be honest, I don't think I'll need the 5 foot length. I was debating why I seem to be getting faster cooling that some of the other experiments (as much as 20 degrees of cooling over 6" of pipe), and I think it's because my fan is 8-10 inches away from the fins, blowing upward. The gap provides a large channel of cool air to push from the fan to the fins, and of course convection already wants the hot air to rise.

I'm not going to shorten it until I've got the 2" column up and tested, though.

(apologies for the re-hash of stuff I've said in another post, I realized this would better contribute to the discussion and future researchers coming from google here)

RM - i have a similar setup. I am retrofitting now with a hydronic element. Did you have any issues with the gauge of the copper when soldering up? It seems real thin, I dont know if it is DWV?
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by raketemensch »

It seemed fine to me, I've even desoldered and desoldered it to a union now. I found a guy who'll weld my element mount for $20 tomorrow, so maybe by this weekend I can try throwing 5500 watts at it on the cleaning runs.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by aeth »

The cooling method already known on PC. using air or water, some extremes even using liquid nitrogen.
they have their own advantages disadvantages.
What determine the cooling capability is surface contact area between heat source with coolant and delta temp coolant in and out.
IMO in distilling, air is good because you can electrically manage the fan to target certain temp - better for building automatic still
But then, remember this only work if the ambient temp is cool enough (as said, closed room and continuous usage may lower the air cooling performance).
And also, remember to clean the radiator fin regularly, because it will pick up dust (common PC problem).
Water is good, as long as the contact area between vapor (heat source) and water is optimal (Why high end PC use water cooling?)
This is the common problem on distilling, the still doesn't have good contact area between vapor and coolant (water), even when using shotgun type condenser.
Someone who have the knowledge here may even build heat pump with refrigerant (like fridge or AC) to utilize heat transfer.
ie: building continuous still to separate methanol with ethanol by forcing temp on 2 cooling column.
or maybe use the method cooling the vapor using pressure differences on heat pump. large diameter to smaller diameter vapor pipe, water jacketed or fin air cooled.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by LBHD »

OK - here is some data from today

15.5 gal boiler, 2 x 2000 watt elements. 1 element off, 1 element running 100% on ~7 gallons of 6-7 % etoh for cleaning run.

This element for 170-180 degree water boasts 550 btu/ft. That is 2750 BTU for 5 ft, or ~ 850 watts just standing still with no fan in a 65 degree room.

So, I ran it just for kicks at 2kw with no fan for a second after it was at temp, and go vapor. Cut 20 inch TSC fan back on and pointed it at the "hot" end of the element, and it covered about 50% of it with airflow. Other end dropped to almost room temp.

Looking forward to stepping up batch size and running both elements and seeing what I can pull down on a stripping run.

From this experience, just by feeling with moving the fan and previous liebig experience, I think 4kw will be pushing it. Don't know that 5500 watts without multiple fans or a better temp gradient (75-80 in the garage today) would fly, but I wouldnt rule it out just yet!
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by raketemensch »

Do you know how long it took you to get to drops at that wattage?

I finally got my element mount welded on today, and I put a union on my 5' radiator on Saturday, so I'll be throwing 5500 watts at it soon. I've peaked at ~1800 so far, but it hasn't broken a sweat yet, so I'm looking forward to really pushing it. Even if it can't knock it all down on the first try, I can also put some scrubbers into the radiator pipe to slow the vapor down a bit, so there's still some buffer space untested And just like a liebig should be cooled from bottom to top, blowing a fan in the same direction seems to make a difference.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by LBHD »

Cool - let us know how it works out!

If you get a chance, try pointing the fan at both ends and see what works best - I was thinking that the delta T being the highest, I would get more convection off the top end and might get more overall cooling by pointing the fan there. Didn't see a need to do the temp gradient thing like a liebig since the rest of the pipe will do that on its own. Just a theory?
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by raketemensch »

Well, I finally got to throw 5500 watts at the 5' length of baseboard today.

I had a second box fan set up, so I basically had the entire length of the fins being hit with box fans on high.

I still got vapor.

I could have backed it off a little and still gotten by, if my scr/triac had been working. I'm basically going to see how far I can push it when my new one comes in, but I know now that 5500 watts is too much. I hadn't put scrubbies in yet, but I can't imagine they'd make enough of a difference, looking at the heat that was coming out. Man, 5500 watts is a LOT of heat. The stream was pretty crazy, I hadn't even imagined anything like that.

I don't mind running a little slower, as long as I can still get a stripping run done in a decent amount of time, so as long as that works out when my new controller comes in, I'll continue down this path. I'm also watching Craigslist for another 5' length, I'm thinking of maybe splitting the output into 2 of these pipes, although at that point I'd run into the issue of how to manage actually splitting the vapor between paths -- it'd most likely just choose whichever one had least resistance. Maybe scrubbies at the end of each path would put enough resistance in to make some vapor take the other path?

Again, the only issue is with fast stripping runs. Spirit runs are no problem at all.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by shadylane »

My experiments came up with 500w per foot for 3/4" finned tubing with a fan blowing on the air cooled condenser.
This is a conservative number based on July temps of almost 100F in the shed before the experiment began and heat stroke after.
Just a guess, with an internal heater and normal conditions, figure 600 or 700 watts per foot of condenser.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by raketemensch »

shadylane wrote:My experiments came up with 500w per foot for 3/4" finned tubing with a fan blowing on the air cooled condenser.
This is a conservative number based on July temps of almost 100F in the shed before the experiment began and heat stroke after.
Just a guess, with an internal heater and normal conditions, figure 600 or 700 watts per foot of condenser.

Hmmmm, thanks, so I'd be looking at ~8 feet for 5500 watts. That sounds preposterous, but if I can find another 5' length for a reasonable price, I'll give it a shot.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by Snackson »

raketemensch wrote:
shadylane wrote:My experiments came up with 500w per foot for 3/4" finned tubing with a fan blowing on the air cooled condenser.
This is a conservative number based on July temps of almost 100F in the shed before the experiment began and heat stroke after.
Just a guess, with an internal heater and normal conditions, figure 600 or 700 watts per foot of condenser.

Hmmmm, thanks, so I'd be looking at ~8 feet for 5500 watts. That sounds preposterous, but if I can find another 5' length for a reasonable price, I'll give it a shot.
Are you really going to be throwing the full 5500w at it the whole run?
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by Hound Dog »

Snackson wrote:
raketemensch wrote:
shadylane wrote:My experiments came up with 500w per foot for 3/4" finned tubing with a fan blowing on the air cooled condenser.
This is a conservative number based on July temps of almost 100F in the shed before the experiment began and heat stroke after.
Just a guess, with an internal heater and normal conditions, figure 600 or 700 watts per foot of condenser.

Hmmmm, thanks, so I'd be looking at ~8 feet for 5500 watts. That sounds preposterous, but if I can find another 5' length for a reasonable price, I'll give it a shot.
Are you really going to be throwing the full 5500w at it the whole run?
For a stripping run I go well more than that.

By the way Raketemensch, 5500÷500 per foot is 11 feet of pipe not 8......
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by raketemensch »

Hound Dog wrote:
Snackson wrote:
raketemensch wrote:
shadylane wrote:My experiments came up with 500w per foot for 3/4" finned tubing with a fan blowing on the air cooled condenser.
This is a conservative number based on July temps of almost 100F in the shed before the experiment began and heat stroke after.
Just a guess, with an internal heater and normal conditions, figure 600 or 700 watts per foot of condenser.

Hmmmm, thanks, so I'd be looking at ~8 feet for 5500 watts. That sounds preposterous, but if I can find another 5' length for a reasonable price, I'll give it a shot.
Are you really going to be throwing the full 5500w at it the whole run?
For a stripping run I go well more than that.

By the way Raketemensch, 5500÷500 per foot is 11 feet of pipe not 8......
I was going with the more optimistic 600 number, it pretty much never hits 100 here, it'll be in the low 60s in the basement. It stays cool even in summer.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by mason jar »

raketemensch wrote:Well, I finally got to throw 5500 watts at the 5' length of baseboard today.
I had a second box fan set up, so I basically had the entire length of the fins being hit with box fans on high.
I still got vapor.
I never tried the box fan route but I bet if you built a little box/frame like mine and used a bunch of
high speed "computer" fans you would get better cooling. I think forcing the air around the fins like
that would help quite a bit. Of course, it would be more work and cost a lot more, so maybe just getting
an extra 5 ft. section like you suggested will do the trick. Or maybe you could build some sort of "ducting"
that would direct the air from your box fans through the fins ????

Got any pic's of your setup? We would love to see them :thumbup:
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Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water cooling!

Post by raketemensch »

It's still set up, I'll take a few pics tomorrow. I think the box fans actually move more air than the CPU fans, and the air gap is a big deal in terms of getting cool air to move past the fins -- the CPU fans have to suck in any cool air they can get, whereas the box fan has a large channel of cool air between the blades and the fins that it can move.

The new SCR arrives on Wednesday, so this weekend I'll put some scrubbies into the end of the condenser and see how much I can throw at it. I'm really looking forward to it.

I should be able to get a decent stream with the existing 5 footer -- I was fine with 1375 watts (120v to the 5500 watt heater), and only one fan -- which will buy me a few weeks of looking for a cheap 5-foot length on Craigslist. Worst case, I found 5-foot lengths on eBay for $40:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Argo-LT27-E-5-H ... SwLVZVqU5T" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by Condensifier »

Thanks for the link, that's not a bad price shipped.

I think the scrubber might help make the condenser more efficient with 3/4" tubing. The liebig on my pot still is 1 1/4" over 3/4" and 23" long and I recently put some loosely stretched SS scrubber into the entire length of 3/4" so that it's not packed but very loose. I've only done one run with it a 10 gallon SF strip but it really seems to be quite an improvement in it's ability to cool the distillate and also I'm not getting any more of the huffing I was getting at times when I was running fast.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by shadylane »

You can order them online from Lowe's
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?par ... &cId=PDIO1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by Likker_Head »

mason jar wrote:
googe wrote:Nice job mate :thumbup: , glad it worked for you!. I've always been interested in air cooled condensers! ...id be keen to see of the cooling ratio can be adjusted to work on a cm type condenser, but I guess it would be called a am (air management) condenser!.
Googe, actually you could control the cooling ratio by controlling the fan speed using a variac:
variac.jpg
It's basically a variable transformer that allows you to control the voltage to the fans which
will control their speed. A friend of mine has one of these so I borrowed it to see if it would
work and it does a nice job of controlling the fan speed. They aint cheap though (I think about
sixty bucks min.) so that would add a big chunk to your cost, which probably wouldn't be too
popular.

Dont know if its been posted yet, but a good alternative!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 2970RX3971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 4SR1WT9376" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

you could even rig it so two fans work of one dial.

Some even have a Temp alarm
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 9083DB1231" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

can run all of them off a cheap energy efficient PC PSU
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817170016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by Kareltje »

Nice thread!

When I was putting together my still I came across a heating coil of a geiser and used it for the cooling coil. I did not bother to install watercooling, for it is heavy, leaks easily, spills a lot of water and is not failsafe. The cooling coil has a diameter of 10 mm and a length of 4 m in total and serves me perfect all those years. So I did not even install a fan or other extra devices.

Always free and reliable cooling. Except of course in the desert of Qatar, where ambient temperatures are 50 deg. C. But in Qatar it is not wise to distill alcohol anyway! 8)
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by thecroweater »

How about a picture Kareltje?
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by Kareltje »

thecroweater wrote:How about a picture Kareltje?
Not much to see really. It is just a 10-fold (or rather: 10-wound) spiral of 13 cm diameter of a copper pipe of 10 mm inside. And I never cleaned the outside.
Hanging on the head of my column in my kitchen:
Image

In its former life cold water came in on top and hot water came out form the bottom. Now hot vapour comes in from the columnhead, cools and condenses and lukewarm or cold distillate will drop out at the bottom.

This brings me to a subject I like to discuss somewhere on the forum.
After the start of my run, as the hot vapours come over the head into the cooling coil, I can feel a very sharp distinction between the hot vapour and the condensed fluid. On the cooling coil there will be a frontier of only 2 or 3 cm wide between the hot and the cool part. I regulate the flow of heat to the kettle so the drops are cold (of course!!) but the coil is as far hot as possible, say about 9 or 10 windings.
It usually takes about 15 minutes to get the system stable and from that moment I do not change the flow of heat.
I noticed that from that moment the frontier is gradually creeping back. At the same time both the flow and the %ABV of the distillate will gradually diminish. In the end the coil will be cool from almost the beginning, the flow will be diminished to an occasional drop and the %ABV will be just an odd 2 or 3 %.
As I can directly feel the coil I can follow this process precisely. But I do not have a solid explanation.

I will try and find a more proper place to discuss this. But maybe other people have a similar experience? I doubt if it can be observed if you use watercooling. Even in my coil the heatconduction of the metal makes the frontier less sharp.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by skow69 »

Now how 'bout including the still in the picture? I can't decide if it's a VM with a 10mm takeoff or an LM with vapor coming out. I guess it could be a CM too, with supersonic vapor speed. Whatcha got goin' on there, Kareltje?
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by skow69 »

I read it again and it sounds like a potstill, except for words like 'column' and 'stabilize'. And that looks like a valve in the top right corner. And that sure isn't much cooling for a potstill. I'm looking forward to more pics.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by Kareltje »

This thread is about air cooled condensers.

The still is a pot still of 8 litres with a pipe on top of it, 28 mm wide and 50 cm long. The head is put together of some odd pieces I had at hand at the time. Doesn't look smooth, but fits and is screwed together without any danger of leaking. There is indeed a valve, but it is of course never closed: I do not like a badly tuned bomb in my kitchen.

My still is very unconventional and may arouse some very harsh comments. It got me into trouble once, and I do not want to repeat that.
To explain stabilize: when the kettle is heated the vapours go up and start condensing. In the first part of the run it takes some attention to manipulate the valve of the burner to get the right flow of heat to the kettle. I decide that by listening to the tinkling of the pieces of copper in the kettle, by looking at the thermometer on top of the column and by feeling the progress of the vapour frontier on the cooler.
After about 15 minutes or so I find the right position of the burner valve: there is a constant flow of heat, the tinkling is steady, the temperature stays the same and the vapour frontier stays at the same place. Apart from interruptions in the gassupply the system then is stable. From that moment on in all the parts - kettle, head, cooler, recipient - the alcohol content will diminish.

I don't know if this should be called vapour or liquid management. Maybe heat management? For that is, in fact, my only goal: the temperature of the outcoming distillate should be sufficiently low (< 25 C). And my only influence is the valve of the burner.
Of course I make cuts and I can fill the column with copper spirals or pebbles, but that has nothing to do with operating the still itself.

I never knew another still and it works for me. I could force the cooling with fans, damp cloth or a bucket with water, but I do not feel the advantages are worth the trouble and the extra risks.
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Re: Air cooled condenser. I'll NEVER go back to water coolin

Post by skow69 »

Thanks, Kareltje, I was only curious.

You might want to check into the Spiral Still by Riku. It operates on principles similar to yours.
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