liebig + 2000w

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liebig + 2000w

Post by googe »

Hey all, I'm after some info on running a liebig with 2000w. I've tried the calcs but they don't make sense to me in real time running. I'm after some real info on what size liebig 3/4" over 1/2" can handle 2000w. I would like info on the right size to handle that power and maybe a touch over, I'm not interested in a 2m liebig. Will be for a 2" x 500mm riser. Thanks for any help.

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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by NZChris »

A shotgun will shorten it up.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by googe »

Thanks mate, yeah it would. I just need info on a liebig 3/4" over 1/2" only.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by myles »

Googe 25" of 1/2" vapour path is good for 1200 watts ballpark. Depends on coolant temp and flow.
25" of 3/4" vapour path is good for about 1750 watts again ballpark.

Build your 25" 3/4" over 1/2" liebig but fit it inside a 1" jacket so that both cold surfaces of the liebig are exposed to vapour. Complicated build but it makes a nice condenser.

Alternatively add a 1/2" coldfinger down the centre of a 1" over 3/4" liebig. Both do the same thing and give you 2 cold surfaces in the same length. Build either version at 25" long and it should be good for 3 kW.

Aesthetically I dont like the 3rd option which is to run 2 liebigs in parallel. The concentric versions are a much neater alternative. Cold finger inside liebig is easy enough, I just preffer the more complicated first option with a liebig inside a jacket.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by googe »

Thanks Myles, the first explanation is what I was after!. So 30 inches of 1/2" might be close to 2000w?.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by still_stirrin »

Keep in mind too, googe, that turbulation in the water jacket will improve performance (efficiency). Ditto for vapor path turbulation as well. Online calculators often don't consider that in their calculations.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by S-Cackalacky »

It's also common practice to enhance the efficiency of a liebig by wrapping the outside of the vapor tube with a piece of 6 gauge solid copper wire and also inserting a twisted ribbon of flattened wire inside the vapor tube. Or, you can kill two birds with one stone and crimp the vapor tube. Use a vice-grip pliers to control the depth of the crimp and crimp the tube every 1.5 to 2 inches apart along the length of the tube, alternating every other crimp by 90 degrees. Or, use DAD300's CSST version of a liebig with an open end and the cooling water going through a CSST loop. I don't know if anyone has done any trials to see how much more efficient any of those techniques are, but it should allow you to use a shorter liebig - give it a little extra knock down power.

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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by pfshine »

I have a 1/2" in 3/4" leibig about a meter and it can handle about anything I throw at it, depending on water flow. I just run off the tap (water is cheaper than electricity) and our "cold" water comes out around 75f.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by bearriver »

The calculator on the parent site is giving me 48 inches total length when entering average values at 2000 watts, for whatever that is worth. I've always had predictable results when using the parent site calculators. 4 feet (1.2 meters) would be where I would start.

The vapor temps and cooling water temps will effect the minimum length required. As will any improvements such as the common twisted wire solution under the jacket, or a small tuft of copper mesh stuffed in the output. YMMV

You can always shorten it after you build it, if you find it is longer than it needs to be. I've done that myself 3-4 times with the same liebig.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by MitchyBourbon »

I don't know what to say about that calculator... I have a 30" × 1/2" liebig on my 18" × 3" riser. My heating element is 5500 W. That calculator says I need a 7 foot long condenser. I have no trouble knocking down all the vapor on a stripping run with just a little more than trickle of water. Am I missing something?
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Stomp »

Hey Googe.. Interesting thread as I never knew there was formulas for this sorta thing. I gave up some measurements that where a little out on my intro post, as I didnt make it, heres the true specs, 530mm to bottom of 90 degree, 100mm to top of 90 degree fitting, then 250mm horizontal from other end of 90 d. fitting to center of arm bend. The arm is 1m x 12mm and the jacket is 700mm x 19mm..half over three quarter or thereabouts.. ( spirit run day so bit slow up top :-). Not the fastest but fk all power there so as expected. I run my little poxy 2k boiler on this which is what yr asking right? Just to add, 10-12 abv wash takes exactly 1hr 15 mins down to 25% collection. I hr warm up filled up to max. P.S. never was any good at maths so cant offer any numbers to ya...lol..taste n feel here. :D :D
Forgot to add, its insulated up to end of the 90 degree fitting with muffler wrap glass and overlayed with heat resistant foil tape.
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Last edited by Stomp on Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Bagasso »

MitchyBourbon wrote:I don't know what to say about that calculator...
I think the calculator is off. If you punch in a lower vapor temp it gives a longer length needed. Should be the other way around.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by myles »

MitchyBourbon wrote:I don't know what to say about that calculator... I have a 30" × 1/2" liebig on my 18" × 3" riser. My heating element is 5500 W. That calculator says I need a 7 foot long condenser. I have no trouble knocking down all the vapor on a stripping run with just a little more than trickle of water. Am I missing something?
Probably not. Its most likely just the variation caused by coolant temperatures and flow rates. You would need to set up the scenario where your coolant and product temperatures matched those given in the calculator before making a comparison. As I said before the calculator is just a convenient starting point.

I have a coiled liebig, 7 foot long that contains three parallel vapour tubes each 10mm in dia. According to the calculator it is good for over 8kW but I know it can cope with much more at high coolant flow rates. I tested it on a gas powered steam kettle and couldn't over power it.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Danespirit »

I didn't use the calculator on the parent site, as i figured it is way off..!
My heating element is excatly 2 KW.

Liebig: Cooling jacket 440 mm inner pipe 19 mm, stainless steel.
The drip tube of 100 mm copper pipe with a 1/2" threaded, doesn't make much difference for the actual cooling.
Even on a strippingrun with full blast, i can touch the outerjacket.
i think it would probably handle 4 KW. With that power i would make a shotgun condenser instead.
So for 2KW power, you can make a nice small Liebig, Googe.
Especially if you intend to make it out of copper..
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by HookLine »

My element is 2400w, and my liebig is 3/4 over 1/2, with a cooling jacket length of 530mm (21"), plus a wire spiral in the coolant jacket and another one inside the product path to generate some turbulence.

It handles 2400w of water steam okay. Coolant flow rate is fairly high for water steam, but that is with relatively warm coolant in temp, between about 22-30 C.

Handles 2400w alcohol runs fine. :thumbup:
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by googe »

Thanks heaps for the info fellas!, I run gas but am building one for 2000w and just needed some info. I've built heaps of liebigs all different sizes but never run elec with them so have no idea, I have a better idea now though, thanks all!.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by MitchyBourbon »

Yes thanks,

For a minute there I thought I might have to add another 4 feet to my liebig.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Jacksonbrown »

I think the key there is efficiency. A smaller length will definitely work but you'll have to blast a bit more water through it and the distillate temp might be a bit warm. With a more efficent one the temp of the water will be close to the vapour temp too and you'll only need a trickle. If you've got space and materials for an extra foot or two just do it IMO.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Danespirit »

Jacksonbrown wrote:I think the key there is efficiency. A smaller length will definitely work but you'll have to blast a bit more water through it and the distillate temp might be a bit warm. With a more efficent one the temp of the water will be close to the vapour temp too and you'll only need a trickle. If you've got space and materials for an extra foot or two just do it IMO.
You have a point there Jacksonbrown..but for the folks with only limited space for distilling, the Liebig would have to take a minimum of space to be practical.
There is also a big difference to bear in mind...do you cool vapor or liquid..?
The temperature gradient of vapor is much higher than for liquid.
My stainless Liebig, is designed so i can use it on my VM/CCVM too. (damned..i had to do some maths there.. :eugeek: ).
On a potstill or a VM , you want to condense vapor...on for example a Boka, the distilate is already fluent and just needs some extra cooling (if desired).
I made my little "aftercooler" for my Ethylisator and it just have to draw some heat from the distillate. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p7298626
I would certainly not recommend using it on a VM or potstill, because of the small size and..the small diameter outlet..
On my testrun of the Ethylisator i didn't even hook my aftercooler up to the water...thermal transfer to the mass of it , was sufficient. Note: there is also a 600 mm copperpipe hooked on to it, that draws a bit heat. http://1drv.ms/1BfEpJG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Here is a potstill run with my stainless steel Liebig...note: i use my sink as a reservoir. http://1drv.ms/1F4TEAa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Even with a strippingrun, i only fill 4-5 times during the run (that's for summer, ambient temperature around 22 C).
In the wintermonths i get away with even less water consumption, as the water would come in at around 5 C.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Bagasso »

Danespirit wrote:There is also a big difference to bear in mind...do you cool vapor or liquid..?
Actually both happen but, is that efficient?

Do we need to take 40ºC liquid down to 20ºC? That takes an extra 100,000 joules of energy per liter of 50%abv (if I did the maths right).
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Jimbo »

Googe, if you put a strip of this stuff up in the vapor path it will make it 10x more efficient. I have a leibig with about 40" of working length, and it will knock down 5500W without even breaking a sweat. http://www.brewhaus.com/Copper-Mesh-P947.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Jacksonbrown »

Any heads in that packing will have to be rinsed out with smeared hearts.
It's not the direction I'd be aiming to go.
I have done it in the past and it did work but really it was a poor fix for what was an undersized condenser.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Jimbo »

Jacksonbrown wrote:Any heads in that packing will have to be rinsed out with smeared hearts.
It's not the direction I'd be aiming to go.
I have done it in the past and it did work but really it was a poor fix for what was an undersized condenser.
nonsense. we're talking 'drops' of liquid in the packing. its constantly being rinsed out. poor fix my ass, it works wonderfully.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Jacksonbrown »

What numbers are you actually after? I just had a go on the calc.
With 3 l/m of 10 degree kiwi water you'll need 800 ml and the water coming out will be about 20 degrees.
The transfer coefficient can go up a bit with a high flow rate, more turbulence.
2000W for a product condenser is kind high though. Is it going on a pot or a reflux?

If you just ramp the flow rate right up you have the max difference in temp all the way along the tube so you can do more with less.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by googe »

Pot still. I should know by now there's never a simple answer when it comes to stills :lol: . I will do some hands on testing when the time comes, start big, and reduce to what I need. Thanks jimbo and others, I don't want any additional physical aid added though.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Bagasso »

googe wrote:Pot still. I should know by now there's never a simple answer when it comes to stills :lol: .
I was just looking at the numbers offered at engineeringtoolbox.

Particularly this: "Forced liquid (flowing) water - Condensing vapor water : U = 1000 - 4000 W/m2K (condensers steam water)"

Before anyone asks W/m2K = W/m2C.

So why is the calculator using 850 W/m2C and why doesn't it allow us to input the flowrate?

So, using the default numbers except for 2,000w, 13mm tube diameter and 1000 Heat Transfer Coefficient gives a condensor of just a bit over 1 meter.

Changing the Heat Transfer Coefficient to halfway between 1000 and 4000; 2500 drops the length down to .41m (16").
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by myles »

It is just a guide as there are so many variables. Default values almost guarantee that your condenser will be bigger than you need. This is always good as escaping flammable vapour in your still room is a really BAD idea.

As for the power levels 2kW for a product condenser is quite low. Many folks using 3" reflux columns will be at that power level and when it comes to pot stills, a 50 litre keg with a 4.5 kW element is common place. You may not use it all on a spirit run but you probably will on a strip run.

I have a 100 litre keg with two 3kW elements. I use both on a strip run and on a spirit run only use one of them.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Jacksonbrown »

Bagasso wrote:
googe wrote:Pot still. I should know by now there's never a simple answer when it comes to stills :lol: .
I was just looking at the numbers offered at engineeringtoolbox.

Particularly this: "Forced liquid (flowing) water - Condensing vapor water : U = 1000 - 4000 W/m2K (condensers steam water)"

Before anyone asks W/m2K = W/m2C.

So why is the calculator using 850 W/m2C and why doesn't it allow us to input the flowrate?

So, using the default numbers except for 2,000w, 13mm tube diameter and 1000 Heat Transfer Coefficient gives a condensor of just a bit over 1 meter.

Changing the Heat Transfer Coefficient to halfway between 1000 and 4000; 2500 drops the length down to .41m (16").
Your missing the inlet/outlet temp of the water out of the equation. That's just as important. You can play with these to get the flow rate you want but it would be better we could input the flow rate and it returns the water outlet temp. You can still get there backwards though.

With regards to transfer coefficient that is how well the fluid is in contact with the tube. That number goes up with higher turbulence.
A properly engineered THE would have the Reynolds number calculated to give proper turbulent flow and baffles in there too which is why is so much higher. Soldered baffles will also increase the surface area like little heat sinks.
I have the equation for an annulus flow profile somewhere. I was trying to get turbulent flow over a RIMS element. Same goes for a properly designed CIP system.

Heat conduction of the type of metal is another big factor too. Copper is heaps better than stainless in that regard.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Bagasso »

Jacksonbrown wrote:Your missing the inlet/outlet temp of the water out of the equation. That's just as important. You can play with these to get the flow rate you want but it would be better we could input the flow rate and it returns the water outlet temp. You can still get there backwards though.
I have played around with them and the calc changes the length, sometimes increasing it while it decreases the flowrate. You can't set it up so that you can keep the length the same and increase the flowrate.

I understand that there are many more variables but I think the THE is set too low and flowrate is a major variable which we are not able to punch in.
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Re: liebig + 2000w

Post by Danespirit »

Bagasso wrote:
Danespirit wrote:There is also a big difference to bear in mind...do you cool vapor or liquid..?
Actually both happen but, is that efficient?

Do we need to take 40ºC liquid down to 20ºC? That takes an extra 100,000 joules of energy per liter of 50%abv (if I did the maths right).
You have a point there Bagasso..
That's why i designed my Liebig (the stainless one) to do the job in both cases.I used some free software from Koch -Glitsch, to do more complicated maths ...i must admit i am a "hands on" person...not a mathematical genius.. :eugeek:
My product comes out just short of 40 C, which is ok for me.. My little copper Liebig performs about the same, the product is already liquid as it arrives at the Liebig.
Any voilatile stuff will slowly draw of, leaving me with the ethanol i want (ethanol does a phase change at 78,3 C).
I have never understood why some want for example a enormous RC at the top of a refluxstill. Btw...my coils: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=52290
The only thing it's supposed to do is to turn vapor into liquid again which happens at the 78 C i wrote above. Of course it should let no vapor escape out of the still.
Same equation for a PC...it doesn't matter if it's a Liebig, worm or shotgun condenser. It only has to draw enough energy out of the vapor to let the phasechange happen.
The energy drawn , should not be calculated on the wattage of the heatingelement, but on the actual vaportemperature. The element would give a rough fingerprint of the maths to be done , though.
Jacksonbrown wrote:
Any heads in that packing will have to be rinsed out with smeared hearts.
It's not the direction I'd be aiming to go.
I have done it in the past and it did work but really it was a poor fix for what was an undersized condenser.


nonsense. we're talking 'drops' of liquid in the packing. its constantly being rinsed out. poor fix my ass, it works wonderfully.
+1 Jimbo...instead of coppermesh i use stainless scrubbies, as i have them at hand already as packing retainer in my reflux column....it work wonderfully...no shit at all..
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