1" Liebig Condenser Build

[pope]

Firstly, while I read often it's been a while since I've opened my mouth on here, so I just wanted to say thanks for the unending wealth of information, this hobby has been immeasurably enhanced by the users of this forum. I know there's not really new ground to cover on building a simple liebig, but after putting together and running a 1 gallon claw hammer still over the last two weeks I was impressed by how well the tiny condenser did.

I'll cover that kit first: It's a 1/2" coming off a 1" column on a 1 gallon pot, the kit came with a 90 elbow to send the condensate pointing straight down, so I kicked it out with a 45 and added a generous stuffing of copper mesh to the inside, and the 5-6" length of 3/4" jacket does impressively well - my hot plate pushed it to the max and I pulled about 28 oz or so of 67% gin in about half an hour. Now I can make macerated/infused spirits one bottle at a time to my hearts content.

So, looking at my sankey setup, I'm currently using 2" pipe to a long and awkward 1/2" in 3/4" condenser (roughly 4-1/2' of jacket). I descends from the head at maybe 20-25 degrees and with 5500 watts and no insulation (lets not get into my laziness regarding insulating the kettle, I know I could at least use blankets). I can just barely keep my condensate down if I keep my water running high. Tinkerer that I am, I can't help thinking maybe I can make something a bit more compact and as (if not more) efficient.

If I go from my existing setup to a 1" inside a 1-1/4" at 45 degrees, I'll lose a little contact time due to the angle but otherwise I should theoretically be able to make it half the length of my existing setup and achieve the same internal surface area with twice the volume. I'll be able to fit even more copper mesh inside the greater volume, so I should be able to achieve even better surface area and slow down the vapor, which should also come out with less pressure.

The pros are: compactness (3' liebig will only reach 2' out and 2' down from the elbow, with the right column height a parrot will sit very nicely next to the keg) & rigidity. That and my old head will be proudly passed on to some friends keen on entering the hobby.

Since most people run 1/2 in 3/4, I thought I'd see if:

1. anyone has a condenser as (or nearly as) described
2. the 1/16" diameter ring of coolant (due to thickness of material) flowing between the 1" and 1-1/4" seems like enough volume
3. there are any general tips or suggestions based off this design

I could add a sketch and a parts list by request but for such a simple topic I know this is already awfully long. If/when I move forward with this I'll share some pictures.

[still_stirrin]

...I'm currently using 2" pipe to a...condenser...with 5500 watts and no insulation...I can just barely keep my condensate down if I keep my water running high....maybe I can make something a bit more compact and as (if not more) efficient.

If I go...to a 1" inside a 1-1/4" at 45 degrees...to make it half the length of my existing setup and achieve the same internal surface area with twice the volume. I'll be able to fit even more copper mesh inside...and slow down the vapor.

....I thought I'd see if:
1. anyone has a condenser as (or nearly as) described...
2. the 1/16" diameter ring of coolant (due to thickness of material) flowing between the 1" and 1-1/4" seems like enough volume...
3. there are any general tips or suggestions based off this design...

Hey, it sounds like you want a shotgun condenser. Compact and efficient. Plus, you can point it straight down so your parrot is normal.

But to answer your questions,
1) it probably has been done...1" inside of 1-1/4" at a 45* angle...should work fine, especially with the scrubby stuffing inside the 1" vapor tube.
2) the 1/8" annular water jacket will work great. I would suggest wrapping a spiral of copper wire (#6 is about 1/8" diameter) around the outside of the vapor tube before inserting into the outer jacket. Solder the wire to the inner tube in a couple of places before hand. This will increase the swirling of the water around the vapor tube and dramatically improve your heat transfer (increased efficiency).
3) well, this one has been answered in 1 & 2 already.

Again....I think a shotgun is the best thing...especially since you like to "tinker".
ss

edited to add: I would put a 1" copper union at the top so you can remove and clean the condenser as well. It also simplifies storage by making it modular.

[pope]

Okay, so on the liebig side of things, the jacket of water would be 1/16" diameter because the outside diameter (per plumbing supply specs) on 1" is 1-1/8", but I could still fit a 15 or 16 gauge wire in there. I use a spiral on my current 1/2 in 3/4, I'm sure it adds to efficiency but because I've never used anything comparable without the added wire, I can't say how much.

On the shotgun side of things, I suppose that messes my post heading up a bit, but looking at fitting 6-7 lengths of 18" copper inside a 2" sleeve for 18" of jacketed cooling, I'm coming up with the following numbers:

1/2" in 3/4" Liebig: 94.2 sq inches of surface area, 1.57 sq in pathway, 11.77 cu inches total volume, 8:1 surface to volume ratio
1" in 1-1/4" Liebig: 113 sq inches of surface area, 3.14 sq in pathway, 28.26 cu inches total volume, 4:1 surface to volume ratio
7x 3/8" in 2" Shotgun: 148.3 sq inches of surface area, 8.24 sq in pathway, 13.9 cu inches total volume, nearly 11:1 surface to volume ratio
6x 1/2" in 2" Shotgun: 169.6 sq inches of surface area, 9.4 sq in pathway, 21.2 cu inches total volume, 8:1 surface to volume ratio

Looking at these as options (preferring 1/2 inner shotgun piping to 3/8 depending on whether or not those pipes actually fit in a 2" pipe), anything above 6.2" of pathway (the shotgun options) would actually slow the speed of the vapor coming up the column rather than accelerating it, and I suppose the condensate would adhere to the walls of a shotgun condenser so this should work just fine.

If I do a shotgun, I'll certainly work off ideas from this post: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=47406

Questions:

1. Is a greater surface to volume ratio desirable? Does it really matter?
2. Will six 1/2" pipes fit in a 2" pipe? (it looks like it might but would be very tight)
3. Should I wrap the shotgun pipes with stainless or copper packing to make the water flow more turbulent?
4. Does having a condenser with greater than or less than the equivalent area of pathway of the column make much of a difference, either?
5. Is breaking the condenser away from the column for cleaning very useful, or can a good rinse do the trick? I'll admit none of my equipment ever gets much more than a rinse right now.

I want to achieve more compactness and a cleaner aesthetic, but my only functional goal is to run faster stripping runs with less water (we are in a drought over on the west coast, after all).

[pope]

I also wanted to add that for the effort I might as well also consider a 2-1/2" condenser. Assuming an increase in surface area is good, fitting more 3/8" pipes into a sleeve would be preferable to fewer 1/2" pipes, which argues that a higher surface to volume ratio is desirable (and the surface to volume ratio can be altered by changing the length of the condenser anyway). Also, making a 2' condenser will not really cost anything extra as most places selling pipe online are selling them in 1' increments (granted for the inner pipes I could buy longer lengths and cut them down).

So, assuming that if a 2" sleeve can house 7 x 3/8" pipe, that a 2.5" sleeve could house 9 x 3/8" pipes (maybe even more), the pathway has an area of 10.6 sq in, a 24" length would have 254 sq in of surface area, 23.8 cu in of volume. This heavily discounts the figures I previously posted for 18" shotguns, sorry.

I also read from sambedded on this topic: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=43020

"One more thing to consider - as soon as vapor start condensing on cooler pipe walls it creates a film of liquid. And ransomer rate metal-liquid-vapor is much less than just metal-vapor. To make cooler work more efficient you need remove that liquid ASAP. it means same condenser installed vertically works more efficient when mounted vertically because force of gravity remove liquid from the walls faster."

Which answers one of my questions about angle and clears up my misconception that an angled condenser might somehow be better.

[still_stirrin]

Questions:
1. Is a greater surface to volume ratio desirable? Does it really matter?

Not so much the surface to volume ratio directly. More important is the surface area and vapor flow area.

The flow area (pi/4 x diameter squared of vapor tubes x qty of tubes) ratio to vapor supply takeoff area (in your case, 1" ID pipe coming off of your column) affects vapor speed through the condenser.

If the ratio is 1:1 or greater, the vapor will slow, increasing contact time along the shotgun vapor tubes.
For example, 7 x 3/8" tubes is: 7 x 3.14/4 x .375 x .375 = 0.773 sq in., and the 1" tube is 3.14/4 x 1 x1 = 0.785 sq in., giving a ratio of 0.773/0.785 = 0.985 (very close to the 1:1 objective).

Also, the collector for your shotgun will expand the flow from 1" to the shotgun jacket diameter, be it 1-1/2" (which will fit) or 2". That expansion will slow the vapor and initiate condensation as the vapor enters the shotgun's vapor tubes.

And the surface area of the vapor tubes (circumference x length x qty of tubes) provides the heat conduction path to transfer the heat to the water. Here, length and vapor tube diameter do affect the amount of heat transfer, i.e. - how much heat you need to remove from the vapor.

My shotgun is 24" long with 7 x 3/8" ID vapor tubes and easily manages the 4.5kW input, with capacity for 5.5kW if upsized. I wouldn't make it less than 18" long however, simply because it will give you more "headroom" for heat input. It does hang vertically beside the column as sambedded suggested too...works great.

2. Will six 1/2" pipes fit in a 2" pipe? (it looks like it might but would be very tight)
3. Should I wrap the shotgun pipes with stainless or copper packing to make the water flow more turbulent?

I put baffles in my water jacket to cause the water to swirl through the jacket. Moving the water in this manner improves efficiency of the heat transfer. Although a little more challenging to build, it is well worth the effort. Your circulation water flowrate can be significantly reduced.

4. Does having a condenser with greater than or less than the equivalent area of pathway of the column make much of a difference, either?

This question was answered with Q1. But to restate...flow area does matter.

5. Is breaking the condenser away from the column for cleaning very useful, or can a good rinse do the trick? I'll admit none of my equipment ever gets much more than a rinse right now.

A shotgun is a heavy piece of equipment. It is very efficient when running. But to store the still and condenser, I like to break them apart for rinsing out and storage (I hang them in the furnace room with a piece of copper wire).

If you're willing to build a shotgun, and have the patience to do the work, I'm confident it will meet your requirements...efficiency and knockdown power capability.
ss

[pope]

My shotgun is 24" long with 7 x 3/8" ID vapor tubes and easily manages the 4.5kW input, with capacity for 5.5kW if upsized.

That's probably the design I'll go with then. I've mulled over the idea of going to 2.5" but for the extra cost I just think maybe it's overkill.

I put baffles in my water jacket to cause the water to swirl through the jacket.

Can you expand on that? Are you making baffles out of copper sheet, or just using mesh? The word baffles to me sounds like something propeller-like to cause directional movement of the water.

And noted as far as breaking it down because of weight.

I'll start by building a 2" condenser with tri-clamp ferrules on each end, and go from there. I found a copper solder paste (roughly 93% copper and 7% flux) that melts at around 1450 F. I'm going to try that next week. I have a tube flaring tool so I'll use that to increase some surface area between the inner tubes and the plate which I'll be forging from some 1-1/4" pipe I have lying around. If a mapp torch won't get it hot enough and I can get them to fit tight to the plate, I may just stick the whole thing in my buddy's forge so that it all melts together. The copper will be fully annealed afterward, but I can probably peen the plate a little to stiffen it up, and if the tubes are soft inside a hard sleeve, that's not really worth worrying about. I'll post an update with pictures.

Is there a way to change the title of my post so that it's more accurate?

[skow69]

Hey, it sounds like you want a shotgun condenser. Compact and efficient. Plus, you can point it straight down so your parrot is normal.

And save all the expense of sending the parrot to therapy for years and years.

[shadylane]

A 1" X 36" liebig will knock down 9,000 watts. This little three barreled shotgun will also.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 87&t=49639

[googe]

My shotgun is 24" long with 7 x 3/8" ID vapor tubes and easily manages the 4.5kW input, with capacity for 5.5kW if upsized.

That's probably the design I'll go with then. I've mulled over the idea of going to 2.5" but for the extra cost I just think maybe it's overkill.

I put baffles in my water jacket to cause the water to swirl through the jacket.

Can you expand on that? Are you making baffles out of copper sheet, or just using mesh? The word baffles to me sounds like something propeller-like to cause directional movement of the water.

And noted as far as breaking it down because of weight.

I'll start by building a 2" condenser with tri-clamp ferrules on each end, and go from there. I found a copper solder paste (roughly 93% copper and 7% flux) that melts at around 1450 F. I'm going to try that next week. I have a tube flaring tool so I'll use that to increase some surface area between the inner tubes and the plate which I'll be forging from some 1-1/4" pipe I have lying around. If a mapp torch won't get it hot enough and I can get them to fit tight to the plate, I may just stick the whole thing in my buddy's forge so that it all melts together. The copper will be fully annealed afterward, but I can probably peen the plate a little to stiffen it up, and if the tubes are soft inside a hard sleeve, that's not really worth worrying about. I'll post an update with pictures.

Is there a way to change the title of my post so that it's more accurate?

What would you like it changed too?.

[new_moonshiner]

In my opinion the thinner the copper that the vapor passes thru the better the heat transfer to the water , least that has always been my take on it when building such condensers . I commonly use 1/2 thin as I can find inside 1.25 slightly over kill I know but I dont have to worry so much about getting enough flow rate . just my 2cents

[still_stirrin]

I put baffles in my water jacket to cause the water to swirl through the jacket.

Can you expand on that?

Are you making baffles out of copper sheet, or just using mesh? The word baffles to me sounds like something propeller-like to cause directional movement of the water....

Like this:

[pope]

In my opinion the thinner the copper that the vapor passes thru the better the heat transfer to the water , least that has always been my take on it when building such condensers . I commonly use 1/2 thin as I can find inside 1.25 slightly over kill I know but I dont have to worry so much about getting enough flow rate . just my 2cents

I'm going with 3/8 refrigeration tubing from HD, they had some negative reviews because the walls are apparently thinner than they used to be.. sounds good to me.

still_stirrin - in a round pipe, are you making plates with perforations for the 3/8" pipes, and just lobbing off 1/3 of the plate? That does sound tedious, but I'm sure it would work well.

What would you like it changed too?.

"2" Shotgun Build & Liebig Comparisons"? Just so people come here finding the info they hoped they'd find.

Parts are coming in this week, I'll start doing some work soon and post updates.

[still_stirrin]

...in a round pipe, are you making plates with perforations for the 3/8" pipes, and just lobbing off 1/3 of the plate? That does sound tedious, but I'm sure it would work well...

Yes, but well worth the effort. Very efficient at heat transfer.
ss

[pope]

So after about a month of off-and-on copper work with a buddy and ten months of no work, I have a half-built shotgun which I will some day complete. In the meantime, my 1/2" in 3/4" liebig is falling apart and I have more desire to build something more compact than to fix it.

SO, I'm going to do a 1" in 1-1/4" as originally proposed, the column will break into three parts (riser, lyne arm, and condenser) using copper tri-clamp fittings, the condenser will flow directly downward, and it will be half as long as my current column, or roughly 30" of jacketed pipe. I recently started using recirculating cooling water via an aquarium pump and 55-gallon reservoir combination, and I feel confident that this setup will meet my needs and most importantly make me happy. Because that's really the most important part, right? Anyway parts are coming in over the next week and I'll post some pictures when I'm done or at least started.