good RELIABLE water pump for coolant recirc?

[joeymac]

Recently I've changed my setup to allow for recirculated water cooling using just a walmart box fan, bucket, and 16" radiator. While it's nice to use only 6 gallons of water TOTAL versus about 25 gal/hr trickling from a hose, but the main reason for recirculation was simplifying my logistics. I can now run anywhere I have 120v/240v without worrying where to get water and where to drain all that water. It just makes life easier. I've had this little brewhaus aquarium pump for a few years now, and it seems to work decently... it was just $20 and rated 8'2" max head with 529GPH but in reality only pushes about 30GPH to the top of my 7ft column running wide open.

The downside is that I'm completely relying on a little aquarium water pump that if (when) it fails could cause big problems. Compared to the boiling noise and the radiator fan, the pump is so quiet that you'd never hear it quit working if it failed. My first indication of a problem would be 5000+ watts of vapor steam coming out the top of my column vent and even if I cut power almost immediately, it's still going to be a minute or so before vapor stops venting.

I'm wondering if I should get a better and more reliable pump. What's all ya'lls experience on pumps?

Should I get something submersible and premium like a Rio+2500 : https://www.amazon.com/Rio-Plus-2500-Aq ... +2500+pump" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Or should I switch to an inline pump using a more conventional brushless AC motor:https://www.amazon.com/Little-Giant-2-M ... B0002APPBM

[WIski]

Joe,

I use this 12 volt pump for transferring strained mash. It seems it may be a bit more rugged than what your using but as we all know equipment can and will eventually wear out or fail. I don't have a spare but for your use a spare pump may your answer to more reliability in completing a run if the pump fails. This may allow you to keep using the economical pump you have. If it fails during a run you can quick swap it out and then order another replacement. Industry does this sort of thing all the time. They asses what is critical to operation and have those parts in stock to prevent expensive long shutdowns.

You may want to elevate the return hose out of your bucket so that if the water does stop flowing you would see and hear the flow stop.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/ ... Am3o8P8HAQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[ShineRunner]

I don't quite follow your routing, but I'm also not familiar with columns. I'm a pot stiller so my stuff is different.

I also don't see why you're running your fan away from the radiator? Just as in a car, the radiator is going to be most efficient when it's up tight against the radiator and if you build a shroud so that all the air that the fan receives comes through the radiator, it'll be even more efficient. Radiators/fans also work better in a "pull" orientation vs "pushing" air through the radiator. Something from my hot rod building..

Anyways, on to your question. I use an inline 12v setup that I use with quick disconnects and can also use it for brewing and just about anything else. Biggest negative so far is that it has to be primed, so it Won't start sucking unless it's at the bottom of the system. But it's cheap. Mine is plumbed into the outlet of the radiator. And I've been using mine for about a year without issue. I bought a couple spares for when this one eventually dies, but they're cheap, so no biggie. Rated for high temperature as well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/182063007173" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Of course, this doesn't address your question about what happens if/when it fails. I don't think there's a whole lot of choice in the matter, other than going with a dead reliable pump like a chugger or March pump. But those are pricey! If mine were to ever die, I'm sitting right there. Yes, it would be a few seconds of vapor coming off, but IMO not really the end of the world, either.

Not sure I answered your question, but hopefully, that helps somewhat...

SR

[joeymac]

Joe,

I use this 12 volt pump for transferring strained mash. It seems it may be a bit more rugged than what your using but as we all know equipment can and will eventually wear out or fail. I don't have a spare but for your use a spare pump may your answer to more reliability in completing a run if the pump fails. This may allow you to keep using the economical pump you have. If it fails during a run you can quick swap it out and then order another replacement. Industry does this sort of thing all the time. They asses what is critical to operation and have those parts in stock to prevent expensive long shutdowns.

You may want to elevate the return hose out of your bucket so that if the water does stop flowing you would see and hear the flow stop.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/ ... Am3o8P8HAQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

That looks good for transfering, but I'm thinking I might need a magnetic drive on the pump. Pushing through a column condenser is a pretty big restriction when considerign normal transfer-pump duties and I was under the impression that magnetic drive pumps will allow the motor to maintain a good speed and still let the pump deadhead, if it needs to.

I know really bogging down rpm speeds on AC motors can be pretty damaging,especially if it's forced to spin below the start-winding rpm level... but I'm not so sure about DC brush motors though.

I agree on keeping a spare. That was sort of the plan - buy a pump now so when my little guy fails, I'm only shut down for a few minutes. Although worst case scenario I could just hook my garden hose back up.

[BlackStrap]

joeymac I believe you have an impressive setup, I like it anyways. and you are conserving water It look like you have a control box setup in the background... If it were me I would place a temp gauge in one of the cooling buckets and when it hit a "high" temp using a PID controller wired to sound an alarm telling you the temp of the recycled water has hits it predetermined max temp... A cheaper alternative would be to have the line, suspended so it causes a trickling sound into the bucket...If the sound stops your pump has stopped working. Ya know what I'm saying?

as far as pump go..I use a cheap one off Amazon for around $20 bucks each they are rated at 400 gallons/hr and do just fine for my setup which my kettle and tower are similar to yours... If you are worried about pump failure, if money permits buy two. Posted the link below.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0187 ... UTF8&psc=1

[joeymac]

I don't quite follow your routing, but I'm also not familiar with columns. I'm a pot stiller so my stuff is different.

I also don't see why you're running your fan away from the radiator? Just as in a car, the radiator is going to be most efficient when it's up tight against the radiator and if you build a shroud so that all the air that the fan receives comes through the radiator, it'll be even more efficient. Radiators/fans also work better in a "pull" orientation vs "pushing" air through the radiator. Something from my hot rod building..

Anyways, on to your question. I use an inline 12v setup that I use with quick disconnects and can also use it for brewing and just about anything else. Biggest negative so far is that it has to be primed, so it Won't start sucking unless it's at the bottom of the system. But it's cheap. Mine is plumbed into the outlet of the radiator. And I've been using mine for about a year without issue. I bought a couple spares for when this one eventually dies, but they're cheap, so no biggie. Rated for high temperature as well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/182063007173" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Of course, this doesn't address your question about what happens if/when it fails. I don't think there's a whole lot of choice in the matter, other than going with a dead reliable pump like a chugger or March pump. But those are pricey! If mine were to ever die, I'm sitting right there. Yes, it would be a few seconds of vapor coming off, but IMO not really the end of the world, either.

Not sure I answered your question, but hopefully, that helps somewhat...

SR

Sorry I missed your comment.

That was a stripping run to just test concept. Despite the fan being sub-optimal, it still did the job even with the boiler power 100% and the condenser head mounted directly to the boiler which is basically the worst case scenario for cooling. If that were a potstill spirit run I'd have a small riser and for a reflux run I have a tall packed column. The fan had a tendency to fall over so the little stick was taped there to keep the fan from falling over and there's sticks on the other side of the fan bracing it up too (not visible in that photo). Anyways, I have gotten some 2x4 wood and 1/4" plywood to make a housing and force air through the radiator, push-style.

Anyways, between yours and WIski's comments, I may have to check out 12v pumps more seriously. They seem significantly cheaper for some reason. Do you have any issues pushing water through the restriction your still condenser... like overheating or something? My condenser is a 1/4" copper double coil with 1/2" cold finger return - so it flows very good compared to most copper coil column condensers... but still nothing like the open flowrates of a CSST, shotgun or potstill leibig condenser.

[joeymac]

joeymac I believe you have an impressive setup, I like it anyways. and you are conserving water It look like you have a control box setup in the background... If it were me I would place a temp gauge in one of the cooling buckets and when it hit a "high" temp using a PID controller wired to sound an alarm telling you the temp of the recycled water has hits it predetermined max temp... A cheaper alternative would be to have the line, suspended so it causes a trickling sound into the bucket...If the sound stops your pump has stopped working. Ya know what I'm saying?

as far as pump go..I use a cheap one off Amazon for around $20 bucks each they are rated at 400 gallons/hr and do just fine for my setup which my kettle and tower are similar to yours... If you are worried about pump failure, if money permits buy two. Posted the link below.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0187 ... UTF8&psc=1

My controller doesn't have a PID alarm or anything available. Just a plain thermocouple readout, a DSPR1 power regulator I bought so I can set the power %, and some control switches that toggle between 120v output, 240v output, and regulated/variable 240v output. I built it out of mostly spare parts I had laying around or salvaged parts. The parts I had buy new were minimal. I'm not too concerned about coolant temperature though. My coil can knock everything down even using very warm cooling water with the outlet becoming downright too hot to touch. I've done two stripping runs on max power with the condenser attached directly to the boiler and the cooling water can last the whole run, even if it's quite warm by the end.

I do like the idea of water trickle into the bucket though. Simple and foolproof.

[HDNB]

i like my little beer buddy wort transfer pump. it is 120vac, SS head with a SS and ceramic impeller on a magnetic drive. it pumps like a mofo and can handle temps to almost boiling and it's quiet but no too quiet. 1/2"npt ports
was fairly spendy i recall around 200 bucks off ebay.
Used the beer buddy lots as a recirc pump but currently using a a "bump" pump, it has a little pressure system on it and is a centrifugal drive. these are used a lot at cabins or to bump up a steady water pressure if your mains has low pressure...i got it for free and it's so nice and pumps so much (at 60psi) i just made it a permanent installation on the recirc system.

[nerdybrewer]

I've been using this submersible pump for a couple years, it's great moving the wash from container to container.

https://www.amazon.com/KEDSUM-Submersib ... 79K32&th=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[ShineRunner]

Sorry I missed your comment.

That was a stripping run to just test concept. Despite the fan being sub-optimal, it still did the job even with the boiler power 100% and the condenser head mounted directly to the boiler which is basically the worst case scenario for cooling. If that were a potstill spirit run I'd have a small riser and for a reflux run I have a tall packed column. The fan had a tendency to fall over so the little stick was taped there to keep the fan from falling over and there's sticks on the other side of the fan bracing it up too (not visible in that photo). Anyways, I have gotten some 2x4 wood and 1/4" plywood to make a housing and force air through the radiator, push-style.

Anyways, between yours and WIski's comments, I may have to check out 12v pumps more seriously. They seem significantly cheaper for some reason. Do you have any issues pushing water through the restriction your still condenser... like overheating or something? My condenser is a 1/4" copper double coil with 1/2" cold finger return - so it flows very good compared to most copper coil column condensers... but still nothing like the open flowrates of a CSST, shotgun or potstill leibig condenser.

Fans/radiators are more efficient in pulling air than pushing, but if you're happy then go for it. I have no problem with pushing water through a 3/4 over 1/2 Liebig, rising a few feet. In fact I had to put a pwm controller on it to tone it down. Plus a gate valve on the output of the Liebig. I would think you'd be ok.. Worth looking into anyways..

SR

[cob]

joeymac if you are worried about pump failure, plumb in a second pump, so if your primary fails

a couple of valves and a switch and water is moving again.

also on the return line to your reservoir, a water wheel, pinwheel, spinner

of some sort will give you a good visual that you do or don't have flow.

[joeymac]

Fans/radiators are more efficient in pulling air than pushing, but if you're happy then go for it. I have no problem with pushing water through a 3/4 over 1/2 Liebig, rising a few feet. In fact I had to put a pwm controller on it to tone it down. Plus a gate valve on the output of the Liebig. I would think you'd be ok.. Worth looking into anyways..

SR

Half-true. Technically, it's a mix depending on the application. Low pressure fans do slightly better pulling than pushing. This mostly applies to open blade fans or fans with fairings that don't have enough ass behind 'em to really take advantage of flow fairings. This is because the flow resistance of the radiator itself can somewhat stall a weaker fan blowing. So a fan pulling air from the backside sort of vacuums air over the fins in a more laminar orderly fashion, resulting in a slightly larger net flow. More flow... more cooling.

However, as pressure differential across a more powerful blower increases, at a certain point pushing through a radiator becomes more efficient. This is more applicable to strong fans with fairings and axial blower type fans. Basically, there's two factors at play the latter situation. The stronger fan physically has more head pressure to overcome the minor stall effect and then that air coming off the blades is WAY more turbulent versus air getting sucked into the radiator... meaning greater disruption of the fin boundary layers leading to more efficient heat transfer per mass flow amount.

In our application, with plain box fans, I wouldn't be surprised if pulling is slightly better.

[ShineRunner]

Half-true. Technically, it's a mix depending on the application. Low pressure fans do slightly better pulling than pushing. This mostly applies to open blade fans or fans with fairings that don't have enough ass behind 'em to really take advantage of flow fairings. This is because the flow resistance of the radiator itself can somewhat stall a weaker fan blowing. So a fan pulling air from the backside sort of vacuums air over the fins in a more laminar orderly fashion, resulting in a slightly larger net flow. More flow... more cooling.

However, as pressure differential across a more powerful blower increases, at a certain point pushing through a radiator becomes more efficient. This is more applicable to strong fans with fairings and axial blower type fans. Basically, there's two factors at play the latter situation. The stronger fan physically has more head pressure to overcome the minor stall effect and then that air coming off the blades is WAY more turbulent versus air getting sucked into the radiator... meaning greater disruption of the fin boundary layers leading to more efficient heat transfer per mass flow amount.

In our application, with plain box fans, I wouldn't be surprised if pulling is slightly better.

Dang. Schooled!

[cranky]

The downside is that I'm completely relying on a little aquarium water pump that if (when) it fails could cause big problems. Compared to the boiling noise and the radiator fan, the pump is so quiet that you'd never hear it quit working if it failed.

My solution for knowing if there is a pump failure is to suspend the outlet above the resevoir so I hear water falling. If the sound of water stops, the pump is not pumping.

[Desvio]

I've been using this submersible pump for a couple years, it's great moving the wash from container to container.

https://www.amazon.com/KEDSUM-Submersib ... 79K32&th=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

+1 on this pump, I have the 770gph model and never a problem.

[BlackStrap]

Excellent job on the control box and wire diagram...

[joeymac]

I've been using this submersible pump for a couple years, it's great moving the wash from container to container.

https://www.amazon.com/KEDSUM-Submersib ... 79K32&th=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

+1 on this pump, I have the 770gph model and never a problem.

The price is right and it has alot of good reviews. Do you guys have any problems with it getting water to the top of your columns? My overall column+boiler height is about 7ft tall.

Dang. Schooled!

Not really... you're right about pulling in this situation. I just already put it together since it worked that way before. If my new shroud box doesn't keep up with cooling, then I'll know how to fix it. The way I built my box, I can just remount the fan on the front. Better yet, I could just get another $15 Walmart fan and bolt it to the front, too. Like some kind of radiator boxfan gangbang...

[butterpants]

i like my little beer buddy wort transfer pump. it is 120vac, SS head with a SS and ceramic impeller on a magnetic drive. it pumps like a mofo and can handle temps to almost boiling and it's quiet but no too quiet. 1/2"npt ports
was fairly spendy i recall around 200 bucks off ebay.
Used the beer buddy lots as a recirc pump but currently using a a "bump" pump, it has a little pressure system on it and is a centrifugal drive. these are used a lot at cabins or to bump up a steady water pressure if your mains has low pressure...i got it for free and it's so nice and pumps so much (at 60psi) i just made it a permanent installation on the recirc system.

This. Chugger pumps. Work awesome and forever. Do need to be primed but a little suckin never hurt anyone.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Desvio]

I've been using this submersible pump for a couple years, it's great moving the wash from container to container.

https://www.amazon.com/KEDSUM-Submersib ... 79K32&th=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

+1 on this pump, I have the 770gph model and never a problem.

The price is right and it has alot of good reviews. Do you guys have any problems with it getting water to the top of your columns? My overall column+boiler height is about 7ft tall.

For my 770gph I'm running a half inch line with valves at both ends and have never had too many height issues pushing up to 7ft, and still have a considerable amount of pressure/volume left over. I did try hooking the pump up to a router speed controller to dial it back a little but it becomes very inconsistent, which is why I put a valve on the drain side to allow it to pressurize a little. Currently building a cooling unit similar to the one pictured already to help knock some heat out, but have my frozen milk jug as a good-ol standby.