Shotgun to coil?

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Bavis54
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Shotgun to coil?

Post by Bavis54 »

Hey friends, I been thinking of building better condensor for my setup, I been using a Liebig on corn, and a simple worm in barrel for rums. I'm tired of leaking barrel and wanted to build a copper graham type condensor- but been thinking- would it be more efficient or make any difference if I built a shotgun condensor and put it in line with worm or coil? Or would it jus be kinda overkill ? The Liebig I used to use is too small n I'm jus trying to make the most efficient condensor I can for pot still.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

If you make a proper shotgun, you don't need anything else. Ever. The best condenser for a pot still, imo. 2 feet, 4 1/2" tubes. Nothing fancy. Put some half plate baffles in it, knock down any watts.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

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Is a shotgun really that much better? I don't mean that to sound smart ass- I'm seriously askin is it more efficient? I can build a kick ass shotgun I jus wasn't sure if it was better- can I mount it vertical n run it on pot still, like could I run it coming off thumper n turn it vertical?
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by still_stirrin »

+1 SCD.

Bavis....do it....you'll be glad you did.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by still_stirrin »

Bavis54 wrote:.... like could I run it coming off thumper n turn it vertical?
Sure. Off the potstill, a CM or VM reflux still....or a thumper! And if properly designed and built, vertical is the optimum orientation for a shotgun.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Bavis54 wrote:Is a shotgun really that much better? I don't mean that to sound smart ass- I'm seriously askin is it more efficient? I can build a kick ass shotgun I jus wasn't sure if it was better- can I mount it vertical n run it on pot still, like could I run it coming off thumper n turn it vertical?
Shot guns are meant to be run vertical. If you can do it, do it. It's like an 8ft liebig, but with baffles to slow it down. I like the vertical because it allows for slim designs.
img20170318_114801.jpg
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by Bavis54 »

I love the table! Thanks guys that's another big help- I just got done building a new coil too. Oh well, I have just enough 1/2 inch copper pipe and scrap copper sheet to build a 12-14 inch shotgun with 5 or 6 tubes. Only thing I gotta figure out is how to mount it - I have a copper pot, copper thumper n I'm used to running pipe from thumper to flake stand or coil in barrel. I gotta figure out how to make the shotgun where the vapor inlet will be from top, but product will come out from side of bottom.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by Bavis54 »

Setups
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

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Sorry pic crappy I'm trying get this photo deal figured out
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

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ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote:
Bavis54 wrote:Is a shotgun really that much better? I don't mean that to sound smart ass- I'm seriously askin is it more efficient? I can build a kick ass shotgun I jus wasn't sure if it was better- can I mount it vertical n run it on pot still, like could I run it coming off thumper n turn it vertical?
Shot guns are meant to be run vertical. If you can do it, do it. It's like an 8ft liebig, but with baffles to slow it down. I like the vertical because it allows for slim designs.
img20170318_114801.jpg
I've GOT an (about) 8 foot liebig that I don't use, it was part of my friend's dairy ( he built a new one). And a smaller one from the same dairy.
Two inch outside (water jacket) and inch and a quarter inside. Stainless.
The smaller, around five foot, one, I am converting from a Liebig to a Davies condenser by putting a six foot, 3/4 inch copper tube down the middle. That will also be a water tube so the vapour will have 3/4 copper inside and 1 1/4 stainless outside.
It should be much more efficient, the vapour tube was too big in diameter before, the vapour could just about go through without touching the side...! (though it seemed okay with my gas-heated still; now it will be BETTER.)
It was probably fine for milk (as a pre-cooler before it went into the refrigerated vat) because the liquid milk would have touched the sides all the way.

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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by rubber duck »

A property built shotgun is the way to go most of the time. A graham condencer is a lot easier to build and gets a good product as well.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by Bavis54 »

Is it better to use big pipes and less of them or use smaller pipes and more of them? I had read the latter is that right ?
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by der wo »

Bavis,
if a shotgun is worth the effort depends on the wattage of your still. And perhaps if you don't have the space for a long liebig. With a liebig 1" over 3/4" and 40" length you can handle 3kW without disadvantages.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by Pikey »

I have never used a LEIBIG yet, mine is a davies condenser - which is like a Graham, but the cooling water goes through the tube instead of teh product. The best thing about it is that it is easy to clean the outside of the coil, rather than trying to clean the Inside.

Mine does have a side inlet however, which some might not like much.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by HDNB »

size/space/ vertical position seem to be the advantages of a shotgum. I have a full copper 2" x 20" waterjacket over 4 x 1/2" tubes and it gets hot at 12amps. and cannot contain 17amps. So i don't think it is particularly efficient. I have no baffles and don't stuff scrubbies anywhere and i use room temp water from a recirc system so i suppose it could be improved...but if it was awesome, it wouldn't need to have tweaks to improve it...right?
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by ShineRunner »

I had a 32" 3/4 over 1/2 Liebig with wire soldered to the outside of the 1/2". I run a keg with 5500w element and it would knock down almost anything I threw at it- with tap water. When I used recirculated water, it would have a hard time keeping up when the water got warm. I had to mess with it to keep output below 120 degrees.

I got tired of that and built a 2" shotgun. It's DWV, so I've got a tiny bit more interior clearance, but I was able to get 5x1/2 tubes in there. That's hard pipe- 5/8" OD. 16 or 17" cooling length, I believe. I built 3 baffles into it to circulate the water around. I put a ball valve on the water outlet. With the still running full hog, I'm able to keep the outlet valve at about half open and the distillate is perfectly cool. No fuss, no mess.

I can't see a reason to run both a shotgun and a coil?

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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by Bavis54 »

I use gas to heat boiler, so I dunno wattage,
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by still_stirrin »

Bavis54 wrote:I use gas to heat boiler, so I dunno wattage,
There's plenty of construction threads for shotguns, have a look around. Many of them run on a propane burner too. But I recommend paying attendion to the design details to get the most benefit from your shotgun.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by LWTCS »

It's ultimately about incorporating maximum surface area.
More surface area= more knock down.

Not all shotgun designs are equal btw.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by still_stirrin »

LWTCS wrote:It's ultimately about incorporating maximum surface area.
More surface area= more knock down.

Not all shotgun designs are equal btw.
And to that, I'd add: vapor velocity which relates to dwell time, coolant flow rate, and of course...thermal conductivity of the vapor tubes which is where the heat is transferred from vapor to coolant. Copper vapor tubes will always out perform stainless tubes.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by der wo »

Bavis54 wrote:I use gas to heat boiler, so I dunno wattage,
You could measure and calculate your wattage:
http://homedistiller.org/calcs/pot_calc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Distill water with your current setup. Per kW you get 280ml distillate every 10min.

You want the "most efficient condensor". Efficient about what? Money? Weight? Building time? Length? Diameter? Water consumption?
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by HDNB »

still_stirrin wrote:
LWTCS wrote:It's ultimately about incorporating maximum surface area.
More surface area= more knock down.

Not all shotgun designs are equal btw.
And to that, I'd add: vapor velocity which relates to dwell time, coolant flow rate, and of course...thermal conductivity of the vapor tubes which is where the heat is transferred from vapor to coolant. Copper vapor tubes will always out perform stainless tubes.
ss
+1

Ahh yes, vapour speed. Consider the input...my 2" pot riser turns into a 3/4" and then enters the 2" shotty. that maybe why it under performs. If i build again i'd use 2" all the way.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

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This my current setup
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by Bavis54 »

I've got enough material to build a 12-15 inch tall , maybe 6 inch diameter shotgun, I was gonna use 1/2 inch or 1/4 inch tubes. Also thought about making them in a swirl arrangement instead of strait to help coolant flow. Jus didn't know if 12 inches of cooled pipes would be enough
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by The Baker »

Pikey wrote:I have never used a LEIBIG yet, mine is a davies condenser - which is like a Graham, but the cooling water goes through the tube instead of teh product. The best thing about it is that it is easy to clean the outside of the coil, rather than trying to clean the Inside.

Mine does have a side inlet however, which some might not like much.

Hi, Pikey,
Wikipedia says, "Davies condenser
Edit: A Davies condenser, also known as a double surface condenser, is similar to the Liebig condenser, but with three concentric [glass] tubes instead of two.[19] The coolant circulates in both the outer jacket and the central tube. This increases the cooling surface, so that the condenser can be shorter than an equivalent Liebig condenser."
That is what I am changing my Liebig to.

It looks like this is how they describe yours:

Coil condenser
A 'coil condenser' is essentially a "Graham condenser" with an inverted coolant/vapor configuration. It has a spiral coil running the length of the condenser through which coolant flows, and this coolant coil is jacketed by the vapor/condensate path.

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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by Pikey »

The Baker wrote:
..........It looks like this is how they describe yours:

Coil condenser
A 'coil condenser' is essentially a "Graham condenser" with an inverted coolant/vapor configuration. It has a spiral coil running the length of the condenser through which coolant flows, and this coolant coil is jacketed by the vapor/condensate path.

Geoff
Well that's wierd, I could have sworn I saw mine labelled as a "davies" t'other day :lol:

Thanks for educatng me Geoff :thumbup:
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by LWTCS »

@HDNB

Yeah four 1/2" tubes with a length of 20" on your PC is certainly not helping your vapor speed challenges.
If you don't wanna deal with the degradation issues of scrubber material you could twist up a copper ribbon for each tube to promote more surface area contact.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by Bavis54 »

Would it be better to build a longer shotgun with less pipes or a bigger diameter one and it be shorter? Reason I ask is I have enough scrap copper sheet to build a 14-15 in tall water jacket, the overal length be 15-16 inches and maybe 8 in diameter . I just bought 3/8 tubing for inner pipes. I was gonna do 8 or 10 3/8 in pipes.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

Bavis54 wrote:Would it be better to build a longer shotgun with less pipes or a bigger diameter one and it be shorter? Reason I ask is I have enough scrap copper sheet to build a 14-15 in tall water jacket, the overal length be 15-16 inches and maybe 8 in diameter . I just bought 3/8 tubing for inner pipes. I was gonna do 8 or 10 3/8 in pipes.
FWIW, I have a SS 2" x 20" with 7 1/2" OD tubes and it will knock down anything that I've thrown at it. The most that I've done is 7.5KW and a fairly low water flow. I believe that I could probably run 11Kw without a problem. I'll find out sometime this month.
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Re: Shotgun to coil?

Post by LWTCS »

Bavis54 wrote:Would it be better to build a longer shotgun with less pipes or a bigger diameter one and it be shorter? Reason I ask is I have enough scrap copper sheet to build a 14-15 in tall water jacket, the overal length be 15-16 inches and maybe 8 in diameter . I just bought 3/8 tubing for inner pipes. I was gonna do 8 or 10 3/8 in pipes.
If you really do prefer to go short, design the PC with enough cavity space upon vapor entry,,,that will allow for some kind of (packing) material that will promote a maximum amount of turbulence.

The shorter you build, the more you'll have to combat vapor speed.
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