First attempt at a liebig and column

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Dtnt
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First attempt at a liebig and column

Post by Dtnt »

I made this up the other day. And I think I made it to short. lienig is 30 inches of the 3/4 outer jacket.Or maybe I made my riser to short and to small a diameter pipe 1.5 inch instead of 2 inch or both in conjunction with each other. I made this for a 15.5 gallon keg and used it yesterday and it all seemed to work fine except for a slight huffing sound. I used ss scrubbers inside riser. When I started hearing the puffing sound I turned the heat down and it stopped but so did the flow so I put some ss steel mesh in the end of the liebig and it helped. I think I need to make the column taller its 14 inches now.I have a 24 Inch piece if that's my problem. I'm using a five gallon bucked and a submersible pump rated for 150-300 gph. I did have to cool the water down a couple of times.
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still_stirrin
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Re: First attempt at a liebig and column

Post by still_stirrin »

Liebig is OK. Riser height is OK.

You said you have to "cool the water down" a couple of times during the run. Water bucket (reservoir) is too small, especially for a propane burner powered boiler. If you can't get the heat rate slowed, you must have cooling power to keep up with vapor production. Scrubbies in the riser or the Liebig won't compensate for proper heat management.

"Huffing" is typically the result of a vapor collapse in the still head resulting from cold water being pumped through the system. Ideally, the water inlet temperature would be 60-75*F (desired product output temperature) and the outlet temperature would be 120-130*F (reducing the conditions that cause premature vapor collapse). You get that kind of gradient by flow velocity (pumping gpm). So, you may need to restrict the flow rate through the Liebig until you get that type of temperature gradient.

Here's the engineering 101 summary: the heat input (from your burner) must be balanced by the heat recovered (into your water reservoir). Remember that the BTUs/minute (or kW) will transfer to the reservoir causing the "stored energy" to increase the reservoir's temperature. As you do that, the gradient across the Liebig heat exchanger changes and so does it's efficiency and the heat transfer rate (the heat transfer rate is a function of the mass flow of the coolant and the differential temperatures between the hot source and the cold source).

A larger barrel of water for the reservoir would hold more heat before the temperature rises (appreciably). You've probably read discussions involving swimming pool sized reservoirs, a bit of "overkill" but exemplifies the concept none-the-less.

So, Dtnt...are you "getting this"? I hope so, as I've tried to lay it out with not only the "what" but also the "why" behind the processes.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
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Dtnt
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Re: First attempt at a liebig and column

Post by Dtnt »

Thank you still_stirrin. I'm getting it now. Just like the worm I used before it needs to cool slowly down the tube. I was trying to keep the whole leibig tube cool. So what I'm going to have to do is put in a flow diverter back to the water source my pump does not have a flow control, easy enough. My next run is going to come from a 55 gallon rain water barrel that is now full after today. Thanks again your layman's terms are a lot easier to understand. ( for me anyways ).
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still_stirrin
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Re: First attempt at a liebig and column

Post by still_stirrin »

:thumbup:

Good job. Oh and by the way, your boiler, still and Liebig look "right on the mark". Should work good for you when you're used to running it.
ss
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Yummyrum
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Re: First attempt at a liebig and column

Post by Yummyrum »

Dtnt , thats an awesome "first attempt " well done :thumbup:

Like Still_stirrin said , the huffing is caused by your cooling water being pumped through too fast .I fitted a tap to the outlet of mine and keep reducing flow slowly until the critical point .
At the critical point , three things happen , the Huffing stops , the exiting water becomes so hot it will burn you and the Tempurature gradient becomes obvious in the liebig shell.

I bet if you run your hand up the liebig you would have felt it was pretty much cool all along its length with only the exposed inner pipe being too hot to touch.
When we have this temperature gradient happening at the critical point you will find when you run your hand up the condenser shell that you can feel it is cool at the bottom , warm in the middle and almost too hot to touch at the top near where the cooling water exits . At this point Huffing should be seriously reduced or eliminated .

Now if you reduce the water flow even more , the condenser will become totally inefficient at condensing and you will see steam coming out the end .....a bad thing .......so tweak the water flow up a bit . :thumbup:
The Baker
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Re: First attempt at a liebig and column

Post by The Baker »

Those comments are very helpful.
I am using straight (quite cold) tap water atm and it seems I should run the water slower.

Thanks,

\Geoff
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Yummyrum
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Re: First attempt at a liebig and column

Post by Yummyrum »

Geoff , Check this out . Its a Video I put on CCSC forum about Huffing http://coppercustomstillcomponents.com. ... 152#p40385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Not sure if you have to be a member to see it .....think its OK
I apologize about the voice over :think:
The Baker
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Re: First attempt at a liebig and column

Post by The Baker »

Thanks, yummyrum, and I will check that out.
I don't often have any huffing, but I took notice of the comments about having the water temperature too different to the vapour, especially too cold.
So I may work the still more efficiently if the water runs more slowly.
Also I will use less water, I don't have my re-circulating system working yet.

Geoff
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Dtnt
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Re: First attempt at a liebig and column

Post by Dtnt »

Thank you Still-Stirrin for the the good advice and the compliments.

Yummyrum thanks for the compliments and for the video link. Funny thing is I saw that a couple weeks ago but was not trying to build this type condenser at the time so I missed some important info. given.

So heres my homework for today. I like shiny copper and I see the light now.
Thanks all.
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Yummyrum
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Re: First attempt at a liebig and column

Post by Yummyrum »

That's scrubbed up really nice :thumbup:
Dtnt
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Re: First attempt at a liebig and column

Post by Dtnt »

Yummyrum wrote:That's scrubbed up really nice :thumbup:
I rubbed the water soluble flux all over it then rinsed it off dried it and used never dull work pretty quick.
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still_stirrin
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Re: First attempt at a liebig and column

Post by still_stirrin »

Wow...structural standoffs made out of fittings. The way the saddles fit on the pipe look very "custom-made", as they are. Slick. But, that is not without some cost, I'm sure. You had to use 4 Tee fittings (shaped properly) to do that. But it most certainly does make your water lines solid with the Liebig. And it has a great look.

Now, here's something more to think about: using a ball valve to regulate the water flow will give you a visual idea how far open or closed the valve is by the position of the handle. For example, when the handle is aligned with the pipe...it's fully opened. And when it's normal to the pipe...it's fully closed. In between you can get an idea how it is adjusted by looking at it.

And another thing, if the valve is on the inlet of the Liebig, the water pressure is less downstream of the valve, which is throughout the Liebig. If the valve is towards the discharge side of the Liebig, the condenser will always be at the full line pressure. This actually helps ensure better heat transfer into the water because of the contact of the water with all the copper surface inside the jacket is maintained thoroughly by the line pressure. Regardless, the valve will regulate the flow of water through the condenser.

I think you're ready to roll!
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
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Dtnt
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Re: First attempt at a liebig and column

Post by Dtnt »

I thought about the ball valve with the same line of thought and thought it took to much torque to turn it tending to bend everything. Having it on the hot out side I figured would be better because when you have small pipes going to larger pipes in a water flow you get cavitation and I figured this would help eliminate that some. less air more water.
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