Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fail?

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zed255
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Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fail?

Post by zed255 »

I finally had a chance to give my new rig a test yesterday using water and have questions as to whether my build is a fail or not. The pic is to show the basic build, this was taken prior to reaching the point where it could be run.

The boiler is a 15.5 US gallon keg with two 3000W elements which can be switched individually between 120V and 240V, and on or off. Proper controller to be added later. Keg is currently not insulated.
The column is 2" copper 3' long, was run unpacked since I really want it packed with copper and am not finding real copper pot scrubbies locally. It is insulated.
The head is a Nixon-Stone style offset design with a vertical 3" diameter 12" long double layer with cold finger condenser and a liebig type product cooler.

Charged with 10 gallons or so of cold water and feeding the full 6000W brought steam out the column in about 50 minutes, that seems OK. I hooked up my cooling water and let things run for a bit to notice vapor escaping my condenser cap's vent hole. This was not continuous, but just some puffs periodically. Reducing the heat input down to 3000W stopped this. At all times the top of the condenser shell was cold to touch and the vapor itself was not hot like steam. Water's boiling point at my altitude is 99C and that is what my thermometer was reading at the top of the column.

Was my initial test too demanding of my rig? Is it a fail? Perfectly normal?

Hoping to get my cleaning runs done soon to give it its first real run with a sugar wash.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by HDNB »

water and water/vinegar both take more energy to boil than ethanol/water, so it also takes more energy loss (cooling) to reform to liquid.
so the condenser is just able to do water, it should do water / ethanol just fine.

the bulk of runs will be at 3000 or less too...you may need a controller sooner than you think. but damn, 6000w heatup will be awesome!
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by Bushman »

To answer your question on copper packing have you read this thread on making your own?
Making Your Own Packing
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zed255 »

Interesting point on the packing. I have a fair length of welding cable in my garage doing nothing. Might have to give it a try.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by still_stirrin »

Also to add...3kW in a 2" ID column is a lot of power, maybe too much when you actually start with an alcohol wash. When you push more power than the diameter of the column requires, the boil rate produces vapor so fast that the vapor velocity is too high, forcing vapor past your reflux/product condenser. As a result, you'll not knock all of it down (continuously) which is what must happen with the Nixson-Stone offset, especially since the condenser is double duty for reflux and product condensation.

Granted, with an alcohol/water vapor the saturation point (temperature where the vapor will condense) will be lower than just water or vinegar & water. So, your condenser will better handle the knockdown requirements.

But your condenser must handle the heat input power completely (even with a little headroom) to function safely. It sounds like you're on the edge of power with 6kW and 3kW as your only options. A controller would allow you to dial back power below the 3kW for a single element.

I have an insulated 2" ID x 1 meter tall column and I find that 2kW is plenty of power during the run. In fact, I often run it closer to 1.5kW once I've equalized the column.

Definitely water and water & vinegar will run differently than an alcohol wash. But power management is still necessary.
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edit to add: Remember...column diameter dictates power handling capacity...and column height dictates purity. And a L:D ratio of 20:1 to 25:1 is optimum for performance and azeotropic production.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zed255 »

With both elements switched to 120V I have 1500W of heat input. A controller is definitely going to be added, I was just giddy to give it an initial test.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by Pikey »

Is it a fail ? :lol: :roll:

It's a lovely piece of kit - smashing build :thumbup:

There's not many coolers could provide 6000 watts of cooling to a moving column of gas zed - and you're never going to strip at 6kw - it's just too much power IMO, but your knockdown seems to have had a valiant try :clap:

1500 may be a bit light for stripping, and 3 kw may be a bit strong, so the sooner you can get a power controller organised, the better.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by HDNB »

Pikey wrote: There's not many coolers could provide 6000 watts of cooling

on a 2" ? the word "volcanic" springs to mind. :shock:
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by der wo »

HDNB wrote:
Pikey wrote: There's not many coolers could provide 6000 watts of cooling

on a 2" ? the word "volcanic" springs to mind. :shock:
Yes. With packing in the column, it would be not only vapor coming out the reflux condenser...
It's nice to have 6kW for heating up low wines. But the 2" will limit the maximum wattage to around 2.5kW during a reflux run.
Where is the needle valve? How do you control he reflux ratio?
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

I strip at 5500 watts. Nothing to it. My shot gun barely past a trickle.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zed255 »

Der Wo, the needle valve is located at the bottom of the liebig product cooler. See my original post for why you don't see it in the posted pic.
der wo wrote:Where is the needle valve? How do you control he reflux ratio?
zed255 wrote:The pic is to show the basic build, this was taken prior to reaching the point where it could be run.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by Pikey »

Now I don't understand - why do you need a LEibig as well as your knockdown and where is it situated ? :?
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zed255 »

Pikey wrote:Now I don't understand - why do you need a LEibig as well as your knockdown and where is it situated ? :?
It is just used to cool the condensate, so the product does not come out hot.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by Pikey »

But you say you have placed the needle valve at the Bottom of the Liebig ? That means the whole Leibig is now full of product, which has been dumped there without significant reflux ?

If your product is too hot decrease your power and put more water through your knockdown. The needle valve should be really close to the return tube.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zed255 »

Pikey wrote:But you say you have placed the needle valve at the Bottom of the Liebig ? That means the whole Leibig is now full of product, which has been dumped there without significant reflux ?

If your product is too hot decrease your power and put more water through your knockdown. The needle valve should be really close to the return tube.
I had asked the question about where to put the valve elsewhere and I decided to put it lower to allow for some product weight to hopefully allow easier setting of the valve. There was of course no clear consensus on where it should really go. I have the option of moving it to the top, so if I feel it causes any issues where it is I can change it. It is only a short cooler with 1/4" tube inside 1/2", only holds a small amount of product.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by Pikey »

zed255 wrote:
I had asked the question about where to put the valve elsewhere and I decided to put it lower to allow for some product weight to hopefully allow easier setting of the valve...............
"elsewhere" on THIS forum ??

I run something similar to that and if my ptoduct is warm to the touch, the water goes up and the power goes down.

I was quite impressed that your pictured down pipe is quite wide - thus you could get good output in "Pot mode" - have you cut that down pipe off then ?

[Edit - I say "similar", but I only ever ran it in pot mode and heve recently removed the valve and return tube both. ]

[Edit 2 - MAybe we need to see a picture of teh real thing ? and also of the knock down condenser on it's own ? ]
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zed255 »

Pikey wrote: "elsewhere" on THIS forum ??

I run something similar to that and if my ptoduct is warm to the touch, the water goes up and the power goes down.

I was quite impressed that your pictured down pipe is quite wide - thus you could get good output in "Pot mode" - have you cut that down pipe off then ?

[Edit - I say "similar", but I only ever ran it in pot mode and heve recently removed the valve and return tube both. ]
I asked in this thread, on this very forum:

http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewt ... 87&t=65346

The down pipe you are looking at is the product cooler, the water jacket connections are in behind in the pic and this not visible.

Main condenser here:

http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewt ... 87&t=66846
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by Pikey »

Ok zed, I remember commenting on what a good job you did on the condenser and as I said above, I only ever used mine in pot mode, so I forgot the advantages of having the pool quite hot for the reflux. I now see the point in having a small cooler. 8)

You chose one of the contradictory opinions of two experienced members - I disagree, but I can see the other side too !

Have you got it running yet ? :)

[Edit - Is it wise to have the same cooling water for bth condensers ? ]
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zed255 »

Only tested with water thus far. Will proceed to a vinegar cleaning run and then on to a sacrificial alcohol run.

I will have to prepare a wash shortly so I have something to run through it, but my gear is currently occupied with beer. Seems a shame to make a wash just to make cleaning fluid but I don't have gallons of crappy stuff to put through it either.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by Pikey »

If you could spare a gallon of your beer and put it in a 5-6 gallon ferementer - with around 8 lb sugar, a teaspoon of citric acid and a little DAP or similar, that should ferment out to a abv you could then dilute with say another 3 gallons of plain water and use that for your alcohol run - doesn't need to be a full boiler or huge abv :)
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zed255 »

Picked up a 100' roll of the Lee Valley copper mesh today.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Garden/page ... 51555&ap=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Will get to packing the column shortly. I am concerned about how much to put in and exactly how. Best to roll it into short cylinders and install as many as needed to fill the column or stuff it in lengthwise with a broom handle until full? Suggestions on exactly how tight it should be? Read here you should be able to breath through it with some resistance to heavy breaths. Idea being to maximize surface area and thermal mass while avoiding flooding. Seems a precarious balance.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zapata »

For the trash run just ferment in anything you have laying around or can beg or borrow. A trash can, even dirty and scratched, line it with a trash bag if you need to or it is t water tight. A cooler. Old dirty buckets, a wheel barrow, whatever. In a trash run you don't need to worry as much about cleanliness and purity, besides possible contamination will just make a more complex solvent for cleaning.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zed255 »

Performed a vinegar cleaning run this evening. Went very smoothly. Brought to a boil on 6000W and extracted about 4L of distillate, nice and slow, on 3000W. Shut 'er down and rinsed, nice shiny penny look throughout.

Can't wait to do the sac run now and start my first real likker run!
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zed255 »

I noticed today while stripping my current wash that I was getting some intermittent puffs of mist out of my condenser vent. I have seen this before, just usually at the very start of a run then it stops for the rest of the duration. It seems more persistent when stripping. The vent is a 1/2" hole drilled in the top of the condenser shell cap. Also, the condenser assembly just sits atop the shell without mechanical fastening, as does the cap with my thermal sensor. They fit closely and do not leak.

I'm running today for the first time in my basement, previously I had been running upstairs in the kitchen. The air is quite a bit cooler in the basement. My feed of cooling water is more direct and somewhat cooler that the much farther away laundry tap I use when in the kitchen. I have some suspicion the cooler environment is playing some role here. I have used the same gear the same way upstairs with minimal puffing of any mist and quieter running.


Some observations:
The mist is cool, and it is very clearly a fine mist and not really vapour.
The top half of the condenser shell and cap is cold to touch.
Exiting water is quite cool, though not cold.
Placing my finger momentarily over the vent I find there is no discernible pressure or vacuum. A strip if tissue paper verifies air is moving both in and out of the vent, but without much motive force. For giggles, I hooked up a Magnehelic gauge and saw fluctuations of +/-0.2" WC.
The sound out of the vent almost sounds like muffled popping of corn / gurgling.
A marble or just a small piece of cardboard placed loosely over the vent is enough to stop the 'issue'.

Some experiments:
Knowing the top of my condenser is very cold I lifted the coil up a short way out of the shell. No misting out of a completely open condenser and the sound almost stops. The larger 'vent' area seems to stop this misting from happening and reduces the noise.

Turning my cooling water flow up seems to actually worsen the situation, and I'm chicken to turn my faucet down too much for fear of actually turning the water off or creating variable and possibly insufficient flow. I'm just feeding via a laundry tap so the control is rather coarse. Once you are sure there is flow, it is a fair rate of flow. Getting down to 1l/min is sketchy. I never seem to get a flow rate slow enough to get water coming out warm, and never near the oft suggested ~120F / ~50C.

Increasing or decreasing power doesn't seem to make much difference.


My thoughts are that my condenser is actually overkill and collapsing the arriving vapour very quickly. This rapid collapse causes low pressure in the condenser shell. I beleive the vent hole is big enough to provide safety, but may be restrictive enough that the low pressure draws vapour up the column more readily than air in from the outside. This then collapses rapidly and the cycle repeats. I suspect the mist is being generated during the vapour collapse and is riding this oscillating column of vapour up to the top of the condenser shell where it can 'puff' periodically from the vent hole.

Any opinions on whether my thoughs are plausible? Would I benefit from either adding a pressure reducing regulator or secondary (cheap needle) valve to my cooling water? Does it seem at all curious that preventing air flow, in particular not allowing it into the vent, seems to stop this behaviour? What are others doing for better control over flow rate? Aside from not wasting water, are there benefits to ensuring the waste water is warm?
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zapata »

That is an interesting puzzler, I don't have any direct input on. It does remind me of a strange occurrence I have noticed twice. It was a fine mist in the collection vessel of a stripping run. This was a liebig, stripping into a corny keg, the end of the liebig sticking down into the keg a few inches. Running fast but not crazy, but condensate and liebig water were cool. I just happened to shine a flash light into the keg to check the level, and noticed the mist. It was not vapor, it was clearly visible tiny particles swirling around. Playing with the light, I could see the mist of small droplets did not leave the keg unless I intentionally tried to swirl it out and even that took direct fanning right at the opening of the keg.

I never really figured it out, haven't seen it before or since. So while it was a completely different setup and circumstance, the way you describe the mist sounded very familiar.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zed255 »

Thanks Zapata. I was hoping for a little more insight from the community, but looks like I will have to simply investigate further myself empirically. I don't get this issue when running in reflux mode, only when stripping.

I noted when I tore down that only the bottom third of my condenser was 'new penny' looking, the rest had a typical looking copper patina, not too dark but not shiny clean either.

I think I will put a secondary needle valve in place to better control flow rate and see if that helps.
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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by Reverend Newer »

I had a similar thing happen, it was because the basement air temperature was in the low 40s and my condenser water was too cold.

Didn't happen the next round when air temps were in the 60s and the cooling water IBC tote no longer had a big chunk of ice floating inside.


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Re: Vapour out vent during water test. Condenser build a fai

Post by zed255 »

OK, that's interesting there Reverend Newer. Nice to see others have seen similar too.

I'm going to have to look at slowing down my cooling water, maybe a secondary valve or a deliberate restriction of some sort. I really think what might be causing this is the condenser being very good at what is was built to do and my control over it is inadequate.
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