Steam venting from the top of my CCVM

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erlendurh
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Steam venting from the top of my CCVM

Post by erlendurh »

I just got my new still going, I have only done one water run to test it and when I did there was a lot of steam coming from the top and almost nothing coming from the output.

My still is made up of 15 gal keg with a 2" SS column (1200 ml long) with a 8 ml od copper condenser coil in the top (CCVM I think the type is called) and the offtake has 2" SS shotgun condenser and the output is conically reduced to 3/4"
I am running it on electric power with a 5500w SS heating element controlled by a DIY Controller from Stilldragon on 240V

In this first run there was no packing in the column but I intend on putting at least 35% - 40% of packing into it.

When I ran it I cranked it up to full power and when I heard it started boiling I noticed the steam coming from the top and I reduced it to 50% power but nothing changed except less boiling noise from the keg
The cooling water output was pretty warm from the top condenser coil, did not measure it but was almost hot to the touch, the input was very cold.

I am wondering, could this be because I cranked the power to much up to start with or might it be that the 8 ml copper condenser is not big enough or the copper pipe not wide enough to be able to cool it?
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der wo
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Re: Steam venting from the top of my CCVM

Post by der wo »

The condenser is not large enough or it needs more water. Probably more water helps a bit, but doesn't solve the problem.

It's a 2". With packing you will use max. 2.5kW I think. Your condneser must handle 2.5kW only.

That you don't get output is normal for a VM or CCVM water or vinegar run. HD Google search something like "VM no output".
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erlendurh
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Re: Steam venting from the top of my CCVM

Post by erlendurh »

der wo wrote:The condenser is not large enough or it needs more water. Probably more water helps a bit, but doesn't solve the problem.
Thanks for that, I wonder if I wrap the pipe in the coil with copper threads do you think that will boost its cooling capacity or should I just get a wider pipe and make a new one, maybe even make the top above the outtake 200 ml longer and the new condenser longer as well?
der wo wrote: It's a 2". With packing you will use max. 2.5kW I think. Your condneser must handle 2.5kW only.
So you are saying with packing it will be easier in terms of less steam, and of course there is the fact that there is more power in water steam compared to ethanol steam
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Re: Steam venting from the top of my CCVM

Post by HDNB »

erlendurh wrote:
der wo wrote:The condenser is not large enough or it needs more water. Probably more water helps a bit, but doesn't solve the problem.
Thanks for that, I wonder if I wrap the pipe in the coil with copper threads do you think that will boost its cooling capacity or should I just get a wider pipe and make a new one, maybe even make the top above the outtake 200 ml longer and the new condenser longer as well?
der wo wrote: It's a 2". With packing you will use max. 2.5kW I think. Your condneser must handle 2.5kW only.
So you are saying with packing it will be easier in terms of less steam, and of course there is the fact that there is more power in water steam compared to ethanol steam
zackly. the packing below will slow the vapour and some copper scrubbie around the RC will also slow the vapour and give more surface area for heat transfer. and as you mention less energy in the ethanol steam.
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erlendurh
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Re: Steam venting from the top of my CCVM

Post by erlendurh »

HDNB wrote: zackly. the packing below will slow the vapour and some copper scrubbie around the RC will also slow the vapour and give more surface area for heat transfer. and as you mention less energy in the ethanol steam.
Good to know, when you say RC what part are you talking about? The Reflux Condenser?
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Re: Steam venting from the top of my CCVM

Post by der wo »

I don't think it will get easier with packing. I only want to warn you using full power with this column. Not only steam will blow out when flooding the column with too much power.

Yes. You can rise the capacity a bit. For example with a scrubbie in the upper part of the coil (like HDNB writes). But I fear it will not be enough, you will need to use a longer coil. Or perhaps a double coil (if yours is a single one). But don't ask me about measurements for reflux coils, I don't know much about this. And if your coil is a corrugated ss one, I don't think a double one is possible in 2".
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erlendurh
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Re: Steam venting from the top of my CCVM

Post by erlendurh »

der wo wrote:And if your coil is a corrugated ss one, I don't think a double one is possible in 2".
Ok thanks, I will make a new one bigger or double
it is a copper coil
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Re: Steam venting from the top of my CCVM

Post by OtisT »

Hi. +1 on the need to turn your power down on your rig. That's the simple solution for now. Also, as you stated earlier, water vapor requires more energy to condense, so you will have less alcohol vapor escape when running at the same power.

You said that the output water temp is almost too hot to touch. I use a copper coil RC and for me, "almost too hot" is around 130-140F. That is where I like to run mine at. If your RC was maxed out (knocked down all it was capable of knocking down at full flow) the output temp would be too hot to touch, close to 212F. So this tells me your RC itself is not maxed out, but it may as well be. Your vapor is moving too fast, so either lower power (less vapor/longer dwell time), increase the length of your RC (more RC mass/surface area AND more vapor dwell time due to increased column length), or extend the vapor dwell time with a larger diameter RC chamber (not recommend for you because your RC wont likely handle all 5500W, even if vapor dwelled longer.)

I'm curious about your cooling system for my own needs. What is your max RC flow rate at your current pressure? Do you use city water pressure, or a pump? Lastly, how much copper tubing is in your coil? (RC coil length, number of coils, and ID or OD would work for me.) The reason I am curious is that I run both 2" and 3" VM columns with copper coil condensers and will be upgrading to 5500W soon. I will be testing out my max limits of my rig when I complete the upgrade, and your reply could give me a little heads up on what is coming for me.

Because I asked, I will share my info. Both of my RCs are made from 1/4" soft copper tubing. Both coils are 10" long, with 26 winds on the small condenser, and two X 26 on the larger one. That is 10' of tubing in my single coil RC, and 16' in my double coil RC. I'm using city water pressure and my max flow rate is 10 lpm (~3.5 gpm) on the small RC, and around 8 lpm on the larger one. My little condenser in a 2" column (fully insulated) has handled up to 2200W and still only required a low flow rate (did not measure at 2200, but 1500W only needs approx 1.5 lpm for full reflux.) I stopped using my 3" column because I did not have enough power to drive it, but that will change for me soon.

In a months time, I will be testing the limits of my condensers on my new 5500W boiler. If you have not solved your issue by then, I will be able to tell you approx. what size coil you may need for 5500W. luckily I have a coil winding machine so if I need to make a longer condenser it will not be an issue. :-)
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Re: Steam venting from the top of my CCVM

Post by kimbodious »

Your still will operate differently when running low wines instead of water :thumbup: Ethanol vapour has different characterisics than steam. Steam is lighter than air ethanol vapour is not. You may find you have enough knockdown with your reflux condensor when running low wines; if not simply reduce the rate of boiling (vapour pressure).

5500W for a 2" system is heaps more than you can get by with, I use 2200W on my 2" CCVM. You'll get quick heat ups with 5500W but you'll have to be ready to dial the power back when the vapour starts being rushed up to the RC.

Yes it is likely that you overwhelmed the RC with steam initially
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