My simple controller build

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madspeed
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My simple controller build

Post by madspeed »

I've been gathering my parts and plans for my keggle build. Final electrical components arrived today so thought I'd share. I kept it simple as this is my first hoorah. Having a tri-clamp ferrule being tig welded on to the keg as close to the bottom as possible by a buddy of mine. Wanted to be able to disassemble for storage purposes. Used a 10,000 watt SCR with the integrated cooling fan, a 5500 watt element, and a die cast aluminum housing, all picked up from Amazon. Fit was kind of tight, but worked. I would recommend a slightly larger box just for ease of assembly.

I think it turned out well. Should be ready to do my cleaning run as soon as a few more items arrive!

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Last edited by madspeed on Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My simple controller build

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Box looks great! Make sure you have some vent holes for the fan. Also, you might want to have the flange welded on as low as possible. Mine are maybe a quarter inch from the line where the skirt is welded on, just enough room to work with when I was soldering it on and 3 gals just barely covers the element. I'm not comfortable running with less than around 7 gals of low wines, which means several strips before a spirit run. I don't mind, but it does limit you to doing larger batches. I'd be kicking myself if I mounted the element 2 inches higher.
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by still_stirrin »

I don't see how you attached the 1" NPS ferrule to the box...is it? And does the element thread through the box into the ferrule? If so, what kind of liquid seal do you have there?
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by skow69 »

Looks like it's gonna get pretty crowded in that box.

It you mount the ferrule to the back side of the box, then the cover would be free so you could take it off and look inside.
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by GrassHopper »

That's a nice clean build. Is that a "Dernord" SS element? If so, I just got one and was going to use it with the Still Dragon Element guard kit (which I haven't received yet), but I don't think it will work due to the large hex nut attached to the element. I may have to go the route you did with that type of ferule with the 1" female thread. I looked on amazon for that ferule you got there, but couldn't find it. Do you have a link for it? Is it NPT or NPS threads?
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by Snackson »

GrassHopper wrote:That's a nice clean build. Is that a "Dernord" SS element? If so, I just got one and was going to use it with the Still Dragon Element guard kit (which I haven't received yet), but I don't think it will work due to the large hex nut attached to the element. I may have to go the route you did with that type of ferule with the 1" female thread. I looked on amazon for that ferule you got there, but couldn't find it. Do you have a link for it? Is it NPT or NPS threads?
Dernord SS 5500w wavy elements fit just fine in the Still Dragon Element Enclosures. Just gotta be careful while installing and have to squeeze it together in one spot, but it works.
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by cob »

madspeed wrote: Having a tri-clamp ferrule being tig welded on to the keg about 2 inches up from the bottom by a buddy of mine.
that is about as clean a set up as is possible to do. :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by madspeed »

masonsjax wrote:Box looks great! Make sure you have some vent holes for the fan. Also, you might want to have the flange welded on as low as possible. Mine are maybe a quarter inch from the line where the skirt is welded on, just enough room to work with when I was soldering it on and 3 gals just barely covers the element. I'm not comfortable running with less than around 7 gals of low wines, which means several strips before a spirit run. I don't mind, but it does limit you to doing larger batches. I'd be kicking myself if I mounted the element 2 inches higher.

I plan to have him weld the ferule as low as possible, thanks for the reminder, I edited the original post to reflect that. I'm wondering about vent holes. I've been looking at a lot of the other controller builds and I don't really see many with vent holes, and it seemed that those with holes were due to using a previously used box where several of the knockouts had been previously used as well. I'm also seen many with plastic boxes and no vent holes drilled. Is this something I should be concerned with or run it and see if it gets hot to touch?
Last edited by madspeed on Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My simple controller build

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still_stirrin wrote:I don't see how you attached the 1" NPS ferrule to the box...is it? And does the element thread through the box into the ferrule? If so, what kind of liquid seal do you have there?
ss

I drilled a hole for the threads to fit through. The element is threaded into the tri-clamp fitting with the box lid sandwiched in between. I applied teflon tape to the threads, used the gasket that came with the element on the inside of the lid, then applied a high temp silicone sealant around that joint for extra security. No sealant will be in direct contact with liquids. Sound good?
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Re: My simple controller build

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skow69 wrote:Looks like it's gonna get pretty crowded in that box.

It you mount the ferrule to the back side of the box, then the cover would be free so you could take it off and look inside.
The lid is sandwiched between the tri-clamp adapter and the element with sealant on the element side. I thought of doing the way you mentioned, but this way i can simply unclamp the hole thing from the keg and then remove the box lid. This will make element swaps easier than having to remove the SCR from the box if done the reverse method. Thanks for your input :thumbup:
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Re: My simple controller build

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GrassHopper wrote:That's a nice clean build. Is that a "Dernord" SS element? If so, I just got one and was going to use it with the Still Dragon Element guard kit (which I haven't received yet), but I don't think it will work due to the large hex nut attached to the element. I may have to go the route you did with that type of ferule with the 1" female thread. I looked on amazon for that ferule you got there, but couldn't find it. Do you have a link for it? Is it NPT or NPS threads?
I got the threaded element adpater from HB

This allows the element to thread into it and then mount via tri-clamp. Well worth the $20

And yes, it is actually the Dernord SS element, bought off Amazon for the easy return/exchange in case of failure :thumbup:
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by still_stirrin »

So, the aluminum and the steel have different thermal expansion coefficieents. I sincerely hope you don't develop a leak when it gets up to temperature. It would leak wash into your electrical cover assembly....not a good thing.

The problem is that you're relying on the mechanical seal of the cover plate "clamped" between the element seat and the TC ferrule. The teflon tape simply reduces friction when you tighten the element into the ferrule. It doesn't provide a "flexible" seal which will expand when the threads loosen up during heating.

This isn't a reliable solution. But, we'll keep our fingers crossed....
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by madspeed »

still_stirrin wrote:So, the aluminum and the steel have different thermal expansion coefficieents. I sincerely hope you don't develop a leak when it gets up to temperature. It would leak wash into your electrical cover assembly....not a good thing.

The problem is that you're relying on the mechanical seal of the cover plate "clamped" between the element seat and the TC ferrule. The teflon tape simply reduces friction when you tighten the element into the ferrule. It doesn't provide a "flexible" seal which will expand when the threads loosen up during heating.

This isn't a reliable solution. But, we'll keep our fingers crossed....
ss
I can take a pic of the sealant and how/where it is applied if it helps. I you are correct if assuming that I don't have any type of seal on the keg side of the box plate, but i did it that way to prevent any contact with the liquids. I am not ready to run yet, what would you suggest I add or change to make it correct? Should I add some sealant inside the threaded side of the ferule? i appreciate your input, thank you
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by madspeed »

While looking over this, I suddenly realized i forgot to add the nylon cord protector. Not that important, but i'll plan to put it on if if I take it apart at all
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by still_stirrin »

If the TC ferrule was welded to the cover, then the element would mechanically thread into the ferrule. Teflon tape would allow you to tighten it into the ferrule snugly. The cover wouldn't rely on any "seal" to the liquids because it wouldn't be exposed to them.

But welding stainless steel to aluminum will be very tricky. I don't even know what filler rod you'd use (I'm not a welder).

Cut a hole in the cover big enough to accept the TC ferrule and then weld it in place. Perhaps a JB weld adhesive will work to join the cover to the ferrule "mechanically".
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by skow69 »

madspeed wrote:The lid is sandwiched between the tri-clamp adapter and the element with sealant on the element side. I thought of doing the way you mentioned, but this way i can simply unclamp the hole thing from the keg and then remove the box lid. This will make element swaps easier than having to remove the SCR from the box if done the reverse method. Thanks for your input :thumbup:

That makes good sense. My only suggestion is to drill a drain hole in the bottom of the box. If you ever do get water in it, you want to let it out. It took me weeks to get that point across to the engineers at work, and we replaced a lot of electronics.
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by GrassHopper »

Snackson wrote:
GrassHopper wrote:That's a nice clean build. Is that a "Dernord" SS element? If so, I just got one and was going to use it with the Still Dragon Element guard kit (which I haven't received yet), but I don't think it will work due to the large hex nut attached to the element. I may have to go the route you did with that type of ferule with the 1" female thread. I looked on amazon for that ferule you got there, but couldn't find it. Do you have a link for it? Is it NPT or NPS threads?
Dernord SS 5500w wavy elements fit just fine in the Still Dragon Element Enclosures. Just gotta be careful while installing and have to squeeze it together in one spot, but it works.
Snack,
Just got my Stilldragon element enclosure today. Unless I am missing something, there is just no way that nut assembly will fit inside the housing of that element enclosure. The nut (which is part of the element) is 2 1/2" from point to point on the hex. I can see it working on one of the Camco elements, and maybe even some other Dernord wavy elements, but this one I have it doesn't. So, it looks like to me the only choice I have is to go with a different element or go the same route as the OP and order the ferule/1" adapter that he did and make my own enclosure for it.
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by madspeed »

My element does not have that large of a hex nut. Must be a different version?

Mine looks like this up close Image
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by rad14701 »

Ah...!!! I see the issue... That element has threaded sections on both sides of the enlarged hex... That's more of a specialty element than just your bog standard water heater element most here use...
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by Snackson »

This is the one I ordered and it worked perfectly, https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0183KIU ... ref=plSrch" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

You gots a special weird one there Grasshopper
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Re: My simple controller build

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I'd send that one back if I was you Grasshopper.
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Re: My simple controller build

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madspeed wrote: I'm wondering about vent holes. I've been looking at a lot of the other controller builds and I don't really see many with vent holes, and it seemed that those with holes were due to using a previously used box where several of the knockouts had been previously used as well. I'm also seen many with plastic boxes and no vent holes drilled. Is this something I should be concerned with or run it and see if it gets hot to touch?
It's up to you, I'm not sure what others have been doing. I drilled a 2" hole in my SCR controller box that exposed the fan shroud. That device definitely produces heat that needs to be shed. Electronics always work better when not overheating. Mine didn't last long anyway. I had the common exploding capacitor problem that killed the fan and the whole circuit board melted. I'm sticking with my overbuilt SSVR based controller from now on and will probably build another like that.
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by still_stirrin »

Doh....masonjax,

You "let the air out" of his build thread. :econfused:

But the point well taken is....often the "cheap" solution isn't the best solution. The SSVR + potentiometer is a little more expensive than the China-made SCR controls. But it is a better design for the purpose we're using them for.
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by ShineRunner »

still_stirrin wrote:So, the aluminum and the steel have different thermal expansion coefficieents. I sincerely hope you don't develop a leak when it gets up to temperature. It would leak wash into your electrical cover assembly....not a good thing.

The problem is that you're relying on the mechanical seal of the cover plate "clamped" between the element seat and the TC ferrule. The teflon tape simply reduces friction when you tighten the element into the ferrule. It doesn't provide a "flexible" seal which will expand when the threads loosen up during heating.

This isn't a reliable solution. But, we'll keep our fingers crossed....
ss
I use the same type of TC adapter on my rig. Been using it for years with the element threaded into it with Teflon tape only. Haven't had any leaks. YMMV

Separately, how are you grounding this? Ground wire inside the box? Make sure you check continuity with the keg.

SR

Edited to add: the seal should be between the element threads and the adapter threads. Both of which are stainless, so they should have similar expansion rates, right SS?
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Re: My simple controller build

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ShineRunner wrote:
still_stirrin wrote:So, the aluminum and the steel have different thermal expansion coefficieents. I sincerely hope you don't develop a leak when it gets up to temperature. It would leak wash into your electrical cover assembly....not a good thing.

The problem is that you're relying on the mechanical seal of the cover plate "clamped" between the element seat and the TC ferrule. The teflon tape simply reduces friction when you tighten the element into the ferrule. It doesn't provide a "flexible" seal which will expand when the threads loosen up during heating.

This isn't a reliable solution. But, we'll keep our fingers crossed....
ss
I use the same type of TC adapter on my rig. Been using it for years with the element threaded into it with Teflon tape only. Haven't had any leaks. YMMV

Separately, how are you grounding this? Ground wire inside the box? Make sure you check continuity with the keg.

SR

Edited to add: the seal should be between the element threads and the adapter threads. Both of which are stainless, so they should have similar expansion rates, right SS?

I have the ground wire inside the box mounted to a grounding screw on the scr, which is mounted to the box. Grounding should all be good, but I will test with ohm meter once wiring is in place to the panel box
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Re: My simple controller build

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ShineRunner wrote:...Edited to add: the seal should be between the element threads and the adapter threads. Both of which are stainless, so they should have similar expansion rates, right SS?
My concern is that by clamping the aluminum box between the stainless packing nut and the ferrule, that it may be subject to differential thermal expansion rates, potentially loosening the mechanical attachment. If that joint becomes loose, I wouldn't want the threads to start dripping wash into the aluminum box. But as stated already, a drain hole could be used to "failsafe" the compression joint, should it happen to start dripping.

One advantage that standard (tapered) pipe threads have over the straight pipe threads (common to water heater elements) is that they get increasingly tighter as the element is screwed into the socket. Because the threads in both are tapered, the joint becomes "conical". The pipe usually won't thread all the way into the hub because of the conical shape of the threads.

The "seal" in a commercial water heater element installation is made when the element is screwed in place, the seat of the element compresses against the socket of the tank's boss. Since the thread joint has a cylindrical shape, the pipe doesn't become tight until the jam nut bottoms against the hub, or the weld boss of the water tank.
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Re: My simple controller build

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Maxspeed: I think masonjax has a good point.... I have a few of the cheapo SCR controllers and up to this point I have not had an issue. The tiny fans on those things have been know to malfunction and with that SCR so close to the warm keg and no functioning fan...no bueno. I forget where but there are a few threads here that talk about the fan failure. Putting mine in a box separately allows me to run a 12v computer fan in the box as a backup. Believe me.... that thing gets hot!

I think SS has a good point too regarding the thermal expansion and leak... not good around a 220V electrical device (I assume you are using 220V). Even a drain hole can potentially get plugged up or not be a fast enough drain.

Grasshopper: That's a shame about that element and housing. The two different thread sizes is confusing. I have the same element as Snackson linked ya and I love that thing!

As far as a housing I use this:
The Hot Pod
The Hot Pod
From brewhardware: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/etc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I have two, they have a ground post inside the housing to be self contained. Never had a leak or any other problem. I actually have the 1.5 inch but they also have a 2' if you have already put the ferrule on the keg. At $36... a nice solution.
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Re: My simple controller build

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+1 on the hot pod

I have 3 in my brewery and got one for the still.

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Re: My simple controller build

Post by GrassHopper »

Snackson wrote:This is the one I ordered and it worked perfectly, https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0183KIU ... ref=plSrch" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

You gots a special weird one there Grasshopper
madspeed wrote:I'd send that one back if I was you Grasshopper.
rgreen2002 wrote:Maxspeed: I think masonjax has a good point.... I have a few of the cheapo SCR controllers and up to this point I have not had an issue. The tiny fans on those things have been know to malfunction and with that SCR so close to the warm keg and no functioning fan...no bueno. I forget where but there are a few threads here that talk about the fan failure. Putting mine in a box separately allows me to run a 12v computer fan in the box as a backup. Believe me.... that thing gets hot!

I think SS has a good point too regarding the thermal expansion and leak... not good around a 220V electrical device (I assume you are using 220V). Even a drain hole can potentially get plugged up or not be a fast enough drain.

Grasshopper: That's a shame about that element and housing. The two different thread sizes is confusing. I have the same element as Snackson linked ya and I love that thing!

As far as a housing I use this:
hotpod.jpg
From brewhardware: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/etc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I have two, they have a ground post inside the housing to be self contained. Never had a leak or any other problem. I actually have the 1.5 inch but they also have a 2' if you have already put the ferrule on the keg. At $36... a nice solution.
Hey, thanks you guys......I'm a little late getting back to the dance due to my 92 year old dad falling and breaking his hip on the ice. I sent this element back and ordered the one you guys have. Should work fine with the Still dragon element guard I already have. That one from brewhardware looks like a good setup as well. Rgreen, thanks for the link for that one.
I'm just about ready to put my controller together as soon as the new element arrives. Good thread Madspeed, should be helpful to others.
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Re: My simple controller build

Post by Rick Martin »

I would absolutely drill a drain hole in the bottom. I would not drill any holes in the top. Just in case of a spill.


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