Bro-science or facts?

[Hotcat]

So I am new to the hobby. There is so much information out there. Telling someone to do your homework is not helpful at all. How does a noob distinguish between fact and bro-science and plain old stubborn-headedness not wanting to accept new ideas/facts?

Can someone please link some studies that state which materials are safe/not safe for use in a kettle?

[Saltbush Bill]

Can someone please link some studies that state which materials are safe/not safe for use in a kettle?

Have I got this right ?...You want someone else to find the information that you want, and then post up the links that you want , while you sit on your arse n do nothing ?

[pope]

It's all here buddy, sure there's some 'bro-science' lingering in the cracks but this site is full of solid info. By my count there's four materials you should/could be using and all that info is here. It seems daunting at first but you get the hang of it and 'getting the hang of it' teaches you tons about the hobby.

[Corsaire]

I don't have studies. I don't wish to spend my time looking for them either.

Do you think the big boys would continue to use stainless and copper if more cheap materials were available?

Silicone for example is said to hold up well under ethanol. I've not seen how bad it leeches.
But I have a colored silicone ice cube mold. If I leave my ice cubes in the mold in the freezer for over a week, the ice takes on the color of the mold. That's just plain water, under freezing temperatures.
You can ask yourself what hot ethanol vapor for a couple of hours leaches. Maybe not the silicone, but perhaps leftover products from the production process?
Also, silicone does not generally hold up well in contact with ethyl acetate, which comes over when collecting fores and heads.

Also don't be fooled by 'food safe'. Ethanol isn't food. It's a solvent.

At the end of the day, what you choose to put in your still, and ultimately your body, isn't of concern to me. I'll gladly experiment and am not held back by tradition, but I don't run risks that aren't necessary, since the materials that we know are safe are relatively easy to get.

[stillanoob]

Copper and stainless steel, silver solder. Gold, platinum and titanium would probably be fine too. Any kind of plastic except PTFE, including silicone, no.

The answer to your question in general really is to read. Education and experience is what allows you to distinguish BS from fact. There really is no short cut.

[TDick]

Can someone please link some studies that state which materials are safe/not safe for use in a kettle?

Have I got this right ?...You want someone else to find the information that you want, and then post up the links that you want , while you sit on your arse n do nothing ?

Welcome Hotcat!

I believe what Bill is trying to say,
in his own warm & fuzzy way,
unless you are quite special in a peculiar way,

feel free to begin in the same place as everyone else.
Beginner's Guide and A Little Spoon Feeding

Read Til You Bleed.gif (24.78 KiB) Viewed 4511 times

enjoy.

[Saltbush Bill]

Thank you Tdick..I think that's what I meant. Sometimes my fingers don't do as my brain tells them.

[zed255]

plain old stubborn-headedness not wanting to accept new ideas/facts?

Because the site owner, administrators and moderators don't have to. The HD forum might seem a little draconian at first but once you have really gotten into it you will see why. HD is not a democracy. Play by the established rules or the aforementioned team will excuse you from participating. Note also that HD heavily promotes safety, so anything even remotely leaning the wrong way will not fly here. I was handed my ass early on, now I understand the culture here.

New ideas? Meh, nothing is new under the sun. Just about any idea you might have is likely here in one form or another, and often shot full of holes.

Facts? Find 'em and post 'em. I'm sure if some verifiable information surfaces on material science or other aspect of the hobby the community will evaluate it for themselves. And just because there is no information against something will not make it automatically accepted, there needs to be information supporting that something and then with empirical evidence that thing may become accepted. Even then there's no guarantee.

New folks come here all the time. The read, read, read mantra has come about because the old-guard got tired of 'spoon feeding' the babes; that is constantly repeating what to most already here is considered common knowledge. It isn't them deflecting your question. It is your signal the answer is here many times over and there is an expectation you should have already hit on the answer. This is a thinking persons forum for a thinking persons hobby.

[LWTCS]

plain old stubborn-headedness not wanting to accept new ideas/facts?

Because the site owner, administrators and moderators don't have to. The HD forum might seem a little draconian at first but once you have really gotten into it you will see why. HD is not a democracy. Play by the established rules or the aforementioned team will excuse you from participating. Note also that HD heavily promotes safety, so anything even remotely leaning the wrong way will not fly here. I was handed my ass early on, now I understand the culture here.

New ideas? Meh, nothing is new under the sun. Just about any idea you might have is likely here in one form or another, and often shot full of holes.

Facts? Find 'em and post 'em. I'm sure if some verifiable information surfaces on material science or other aspect of the hobby the community will evaluate it for themselves. And just because there is no information against something will not make it automatically accepted, there needs to be information supporting that something and then with empirical evidence that thing may become accepted. Even then there's no guarantee.

New folks come here all the time. The read, read, read mantra has come about because the old-guard got tired of 'spoon feeding' the babes; that is constantly repeating what to most already here is considered common knowledge. It isn't them deflecting your question. It is your signal the answer is here many times over and there is an expectation you should have already hit on the answer. This is a thinking persons forum for a thinking persons hobby.

Really well put Zed.
Info here evolves organically. The very nature of organic evolution just means there is going to be a bunch of filler taking up space.

Every now and again someone with an actual credential shows up to fast track info forward. But most of the time the info here is based on repetitive practical application.

Bro science? Not the right way to put it. We can see a bird in flight and in our minds we can comprehend how the bird flys can we not?
But that doesn't mean as critical thinkers we are able to mathematically diagram how flight is possible,,,,if you see my meaning?

Best advise is to read as much as possible and identify member posts that have commonalities with respect to the topics you as a new person are looking to learn about.

[Expat]

Telling someone to do your homework is not helpful at all.

This is the wrong place for you... Bro.

[LWTCS]

Telling someone to do your homework is not helpful at all.

This is the wrong place for you... Bro.

Yeah maybe not.

Bruh,,,all of the info is here at your finger tips. Think open book test and you are the one that gets to ask the questions fer cries sake...

Nuther fella said ( and I'm paraphrasing) " how come the recipe for such & such isn't updated so that I don't have to read through 100 pages to........" Bruh,,,,,,really? The actual recipe is more often on the first page. And if the recipe has been stickied or made it into tried and true then you can be sure the remaining 99 pages is more or less ancillary info according to practical application/experience by those that are also using the recipe.

Yeah it would be nice to weed out all the irrelevant chatter and condense every thread into only the info that you yourself deem appropriate to suite your needs. That's why I set up the Diagram & Plans thread the way I did btw. To keep the real info from being buried in page after page of chatter.

Anyway to answer your question. SS and copper is the standard here.
Typically 304 and 316 on the stainless. 316 is better but 90% of ethanol plants here in the states use 304.

[8Ball]

Merriam Webster’s Definition of hobby:
a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation

Maybe you need to find a new hobby. This one appears to be too challenging for you as your post suggests that you are not enjoying the journey.

[seabass]

It's a shame that no one has put together a thread that could spoon feed the info to get them started...

[cob]

It's a shame that no one has put together a thread that could spoon feed the info to get them started...

your kidding RIGHT??? viewtopic.php?f=15&t=52975

[seabass]

your kidding RIGHT??? viewtopic.php?f=15&t=52975

Yep. That was sarcasm.

[pope]

Hotcat, it's easy to get frustrated early on with all the info, since you'll get torn up plenty on this thread I wanted to say if you're willing to wade through it all, and ask questions along the way, I think plenty on here will help you out along the way but you've got to be ready for some trial and error.

Stick to tried and true methods and recipes for like a year and you'll get the hang of it. This hobby demands patience and anyone who can tell you anything useful has been in your shoes, so patience for the impatient isn't something most of us have. BUT, try to stick it out, wade through the wavy shallows, and you'll be swimming open water in no time (and for materials stick to copper, solder, stainless steel, glass, and PTFE/teflon).

[BlackStrap]

Welcome Hotcat
Now you know what questions not to ask or maybe it was how you phrased it...Either way.

What Pope said is spot on.

Stick to tried and true methods and recipes for like a year and you'll get the hang of it. This hobby demands patience and anyone who can tell you anything useful has been in your shoes, so patience for the impatient isn't something most of us have. BUT, try to stick it out, wade through the wavy shallows, and you'll be swimming open water in no time (and for materials stick to copper, solder, stainless steel, glass, and PTFE/teflon).

May I offer some advice , stick with the safe elements and materials to use, and as pope said the tried and true recipes.
Make sure you do a vinegar and run of wash that you will not consume (it's to clean the still and then be tossed out)

Read and as you come to a part you don't understand then ask the question... For example when I was first starting out I did not know what dunder or backset was... but I had to read and read and then I asked someone on here.... turns out they are the same.

The point I'm trying to make is First you must make an attempt to find the information yourself, when you come to something you don't understand then ask... That's all.

Anyway
Welcome aboard.
Good Luck, have fun and be safe.
BlackStrap

[Hotcat]

Geez, I did not know that asking a question would elicit such a negative reaction from some members. I was raised with the knowledge that there is no such thing as a stupid question ... the only stupid question is the one you don't ask ... My bad, so sorry for wanting to know more and learn. Before Copernicus, the earth was the center of the universe. In the 1800's lead was safe for use in water pipes. More recently smoking was promoted by medical doctors. Go figure.

Thank you very much to those who had encouraging words, I appreciate that.

[Corsaire]

The responses aren't because of a stupid question. It's just your statement that you didn't want to do homework doesn't come over well.

It's all here, your question was even answered straight up. Just no links to studies. I'm afraid you'll still have to dig those up yourself.

Yes we make advances as a race. Flat earth to round earth for most. Heliocentrism etc.
Still designs have changed a lot, the materials not very much. Truth is most synthetics leach into ethanol. Aluminium isn't a very good choice either. And a glass boiler doesn't seem very safe from a practical standpoint does it?
That said, I got tired of messing with flour paste so started a keg build with tri clamps. See, advancing.

Stick around. You'll get the hang of this forum (and the way each member expresses themself) quickly.
And make some good booze too!

[Hotcat]

I never said I did not want to do the homework. I am here for the exact reason that I AM doing my homework. Many responses here assumed that I am lazy and I have not done any research. In fact, I have been reading a lot the past year or so. Hence my statement; it is so difficult to assess what is fact and what is not. Sometimes when a statement is repeated often enough by enough people it becomes gospel. (which in many circumstances may be false - for example the "urban legend" that claims humans only use 10% of their brainpower. That is totally false)

[Hotcat]

That is why I came here to ask my questions, with the firm belief that this niche and experienced community would be able to supply me with the answers and proof I was looking for. Alas, I was mistaken. I will look at Pubmed and other scientific publications henceforth.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Perhaps your op came off that way. I'll give you the benefit of a misunderstanding. All ideas here have evolved over decades, and everything is challenged for the good of the community. There is alot of what has been hard earned through trial and error, and compared with other members for common outcomes. Some of the best distillers here in the end have different views, and that's ok. Lots of topics here have brilliant studies linked on the more scientific topics by smart members. Other topics are from centuries of combined experience, and proven by each other's trials. It's difficult for someone to come in and say, "ok, can you guys just lay the case studies out fir me on everything you learned? " The facts are here through our knowledge and experience.

Now, if there is a particular subject or question you want some direction on, plenty of members are willing to help you out, and link papers on it if it's possible. But you got to be more specific. I mean have you seen the methanol thread or the thread that proved ptfe was safe? My God those studies are far beyond my comprehension. I rely on the people that understand the info to interpret. If studies are your thing, they are here, just have to ask for exactly what your looking for. I personally see alot of these threads as a paper in itself. There isn't a government entity telling home distillers how to safely break the law and make liquor, lol. There are brilliant members here from all walks of life, master electricians, scientist, chemist, machinery experts. On the stuff you don't know, you have to sort through the information and decide what is the most trustworthy information.

[WithOrWithoutU2]

That is why I came here to ask my questions, with the firm belief that this niche and experienced community would be able to supply me with the answers and proof I was looking for. Alas, I was mistaken. I will look at Pubmed and other scientific publications henceforth.

Bye Felicia. Sorry could not resist.



Were you really asking a question of what are all the materials that can be safely used? And you wanted each response to be backed up by science? Come on... you started this thread to vent. You've read enough to discover this is a hobbyist forum that comes along with meandering threads full of varying opinions and the BAD QUESTIONS that started them. Take it for what it is and accept the knowledge, wisdom, and help that is offered. Don't take it all at face value and certainly feel free to research yourself and/or engage in debate here. There are plenty here that LOVE GOOD SCIENTIFIC DEBATES. Some real smart, educated, experts in many fields of study. Not to mention some very accomplished distilling hobbyist. Along the way you just may find some of the scientific based answers you seek and maybe some online friendships.

[Corsaire]

I will look at Pubmed and other scientific publications henceforth.

If you happen to find any that are worthwile I'd be happy to read them. I already have three boilers, 2 copper and 1 ss, and found another small copper water boiler so I don't feel the need to spend time to explore other options.

[Royco]

So that went down well Hotcat. I am very new to the forum and distilling (and incidentally from your country).
I have sore eyes and repetitive strain injuries from typing searches, and at last it is getting easier and making more sense.
With the right attitude you will get great help here. It was put to me rather bluntly on another forum a few years ago when I was new an overenthusiastic : DASFFS.
Nuff said.

[LWTCS]

This thread has run it's course.
Seemed evidently clear by the title and the nature of the original post that the OP was trolling.

Without a legitimate specific question this thread has become pointless.