Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

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Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Dan Call »

My family settled in what is now Tennessee in 1682. They were landowners, slave-owners. They donated 2,500 acres to help found what is now The University of the South. My ancestor, a minister and surgeon, led the first scouting party to show the land to the board of regents. They had a tannery down by Old Mill Creek outside of Winchester, which is just about 20 minutes from Lynchburg. I don't have any documented contact between Jack Daniel and any of my family members, they had been there a long time before his people got there. Although there is no specific family lore of distillation, it's a safe assumption, every farm of any size had one, and someone to run it. The truth is that most people didn't just sit around drinking whiskey off of a still. It was an occassional indugence mostly as a curative, and rubbed on wounds, rashes. It was a currency of trade. Far far from what many think it was back then. Said all that to say this, I think I understand a little about the East Tennessee culture, and being the South, that as well. There are still two mansions that exist in Winchester that my family built, one with the 'house slave' quarters still intact. I love to visit, I love the land. It's a blessing and I'm not trying to appear showy, I'm just proud of it.

Now...I'm quite familiar with Popcorn Sutton. I've Seen documentary after documentary about him, moonshine, etc. The most amazing to me is the youtube video shot by some kid where he proceeds to distill over thirty glass one gallon jugs with the still set up inside the house, running on gas, and him sitting there with a filterless Pall Mall hanging out of his mouth putting paste on the head going "That heat'll hit this and it'll git harder'n a minister's pecker." The most recent one was "The Last One," shot about two years before I died. It's very interesting and really shows the whole process. There is also a distillation movie floating around called "Poitin" which showcases the traditional Irish method of making a barley whiskey in a non-commercial setting. I was amazed at the similarity between Popcorn building up his furnace around the pot, the cap, the arm, the worm. It's almost identical to the setup in the Poitin video. It's striking at how well preserved the specifics of the process are.

Popcorn Sutton is an enigma to me as well.

I give Popcorn Sutton credit for carrying that tradition. That's all I give him credit for. I hope no one takes offense at this, but I don't really think he has done any distiller any benefit, and he died the death of a coward. At worst, he was a tehcnicolor realization of all the worthless, stupid, and trivial stereotypes that people elsewhere think about the South, moonshining, and our culture. I think Popcorn Sutton took a big shit right in the middle of the culture I claim. He could have served the 18 months and been back here with us today making money off that new company, and he deserved, more than anybody, to make some money off of that and become a legal distiller. It would have been wonderful, and he would have had all he wanted, not that he seemed to be wanting alot to begin with. It was a shame and a waste. We were deprived of a walking legend rolled into one man, warts and all. So simple to avoid, such a waster. I don't respect that he did that. I'm mad at him for doing that. It was cowardly.

I love the lore, I love the rustic characters. I found little to personally admire about the man, except his bond to that particular process of distillation. But even at that....he used sugar, it was never all grain. Not that that is a bad thing. It just makes me think...."Why go through all that just to make sugar vodka with a a corn?

Finally....I don't really see Popcorn Sutton and what he represented as something that figures into the craft of distillation to any meaningful extent. He was the lore, the myth, the legend, and beyond the familiar process he performed, frozen as a period in time. At worst, he was the comic, the village idiot, Snuffy Smith in the flesh. I personally do not seek an affiliation with any of the moonshine lore or culture. I do respect a great deal of what he did though, without question. He wasn't an idiot by any means, but many people think he was nothing more than that.

We here are engaged in the modern "whiskey rebellion." (read the essay if you get the chance) Rather than revel in this bawdy lore and cultural comedy, we need to be worried about, for instance, legislation that effects our craft. How we will navigate the landscape as it is before us now is far more important than the saggy hat and jugs with x's written on it. Where will distillation be, for example, in 30 years? Completely lost or modern and thriving? We here will figure into how that question is answered. We have a task before us. A very rewarding one.....but a task nonetheless.

This is modern distillation, the people here are modern distillers. We use more sophisticated and refined techniques. To me, what this forum represents is hard headed persistence and smarts to refine this art and craft and make it ever better, to pass on that refinement, but also harbor and preserve that information. If it was easy everyone would do it, and it's not a simple process. Even what Popcorn did is very hard work and anyone that has made a single batch and ran it, you know it is. I'm still paying my dues, it's hard to even get something drinkable. let alone something really good. It will be a while before I get anywhere near where I want to be. I personally am not interested in doing a sugar wash and having something to mix with mountain dew and get a buzz. Nor am I interested in selling anything. I'm interested in learning the specifics of this process, refining it, and getting into a quality of beverage that stands beside anything else in something that someone would want to sip on.

So there you have it gentlemen......my utterly contradictory view of whiskey, culture, and Marvin Sutton. RIP. May your next batch be better than your last.
Last edited by Dan Call on Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by heartcut »

Good reading, thanks.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by MitchyBourbon »

Well said. So do you have any thoughts on how us modern distillers can bring this hobby in to the light? And maybe make it legal.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by astronomical »

I too am interested in where distillation is headed. Is this boom of moonshine interest going to actually spur a lots more distilleries that are interested in more than just white spirits? Are we headed the same direction as the homebrew culture, where we can sell our products for considerably more and take to time to truly craft something special (and make a living). Here in Illinois, you can sell 15,000 gallons a year DIRECTLY from your distillery to the customer IN HOUSE. It makes me really want to look into opening a distillery and aiming for a modest salary (I think if you sold 5,000 gallons a year direclty you could make at least 50K.. not bad for doing something I love) .

Im with you on distancing myself from the moonshine culture. I cringe everytime someone calls my spirits moonshine. I like to think of it as "craft artisan spirits".

I think the problem with a lot of modern distilleries seems to be greed and who is behind them. For instance, I can make 15,000 gallons wiht a license in IL, but, as far as I know, I can buy an unlimited amount from other distilleries and process it into whatever I wish. So, there really is no cap. The problem I see is that people wiht money start distilleries and want them to be profittable and they do these things. They dont even make the base spirits a lot of the time. Laws dont help either. IIRC, there is a lot of double taxing on alcohol. If you bought predistilled spirits you'd only pay teh taxes once. If you bust you ass and ferment it yourself you pay twice. Lots of the details are quirky and unfair.

I'd like to see more small scale distilleries with very limited products that are sold regionally. Think Three Floyds beer of IN. They are pretty big now, but, the could have expanded at any time. They chose, for now, to stay the same size because they are fine with it. I'd like to see more distilleries that are much more devoted to quality than they are to quarterly numbers. I want a whiskey that speaks volumes to me, not a sales rep that spews bullshit to me. On that note, I've had a lot of crap from microdistilleries and it pisses me off.

nuff said... great post dan
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Dan Call »

I've thought quite a bit about this. A few years ago I toured alot of distilleries in KY. One of the most impressive things I ever saw was the remains of the Sitzel-Weller distillery in downtown Louisville. Part of it is still used in the industry, but most of it is unused. Julian P. VAn Winkle owned it all outright and they produced Old Fitzgerald for 30 years, as well as all of the Sitzel labels. It was, far and away, the best and most widely sold Bourbon in the US, and the world. Like when Cadillac was the biggest name, the best car, and the one everyone pointed to. That day does not exist now. The Beams and Brown Forman own the world of whiskey, and Heaven Hill mops up the rest. All three of those are within a 30 minute drive of each other. Bill Samuels Sr. and Jr. never made a drop of Bourbon, or any other spirit. The whole story about the recipe being burned may or may not be true, but Julian Van Winkle gave Bill Sr. his 'wheated recipe' that was an old Weller recipe that would become Makers. Julian's grand son, Julian III, owner of the Van Winkle labels, doesn't make whiskey, never has. He does, however, have an amazing ability to choose great whiskey that he selects for the Van Winkle products, particularly the 20 and 23 year old Pappy Van Winkle bourbons, all made at Buffalo Trace. But he doesn't make whiskey. Hardly anyone among those names and places you associate with quality bourbon, actually makes whiskey, practically none. Booker Noe, of "Bookers Bourbon" fame, once was the master distiller at Beam Brands. He, and his son Fred, who is now master distiller at Beam, actually make whiskey, it's exceedingly rare. If you ever get a chance to read Sally Van Winkle Campbell's "But always fine Bourbon," read it.....it's a great picture of a bourbon family from a different time.

It's all corporatized, but the same families hold sway. The Beams are probably the single most important family in distillation in the country. But the family members that acutally make whiskey are employed by other companies, not sitting behind a desk. There is a divide between masters that craft whiskey and people that pimp that whole culture in order to sell crafted whiskey. Unfortunately the latter is completely necessary in order to allow the former to flourish. I believe that is the dynamic tension that exists in distillation in this country.

The artisans distillers in this country who are, and are going to, make inroads in the craft of distillation will have to "go to the crossroads" and get a set of fundamental values divorced from American tradition and practice. Example. I have a movie called Poitin, mentioned in the first post, which is a documentary about illicitly produced whiskey that is crafted like the finest Irish Single Malt process. Popcorn Sutton makes wheated bourbon and ages it in a barrel of his own making.

I think this site is so perfectly indicative of the same issues, in miniature but in greater detail. "Uncle Jessie's Sour Mash Whiskey".......Let's see, it's made with white sugar and corn "for flavor,"......sorry, but that ain't whiskey. But come on....if a guy wants to make a clean wash of sugar vodka and sit and watch "Monster Garage" and talk about it on this forum....wonderful.....but don't pretend like you're partaking in the true craft of whiskey making. I refuse to make any more sugar washes, I'm concentrating on grains only. I scroll right past any recipe that's got any sugar in it as an ingredient. I'm sick of it. This site is so good that a teenager could build, mash, and drink a good, safe, quality distillate just from pointing his browser at this site and going to the store. I'm not so sure it's done someone a service other than giving them the personal satisfaction of engaging a process that isn't easy, requires discipline, and is better than sitting in front of the TV watching football.

To me....those of us who are in this because we see at as a personal conviction to a larger process that operates in larger cycles with larger considerations. That's where the issue of craft and committment becomes more important that just getting something to drink that's pretty good. It's more than getting some ETOH to come out of your still then go to the good ole forum and go "I DID it.....it's smoooooooth. I'm gonna use 20 pounds of sugar next time."

The craft distillery movement, and the relative change that may come out of the coming round of legislation, will yielf a mixed bag with alot of posturing, but only a few that will be on map in 30 years. An industry expert told me once, in Louisville at D. Marie's in the Gault House, that no one could start and run a modern Bourbon distillery because the big names have made it impossible to do so. They have succeeded and they've occupied that territory and no one else can get in unless they've got a whole whole lot of money.

Well I don't believe that any more. Go back to barley, rye, and some unconventional aging techniques. Try using old sherry barrels. It's time to take the most pure forms, play by those roles, but get creative with the process, and turn out something that has crossed every T and dotted every I in the most formal principles of the process but diverted as soon as those buttons are punched. This is "The Rite of Spring,"......the new classicism that blacks the eye of the establishment, but by all the rules. Just like Stravinsky did. He was classically trained and loved by the establishment, but with the first performance of "the Rite of Spring" the establishment almost rioted at the way in which he had followed the rules. I think that's where modern distillation is at. But what do I know?

The artisans now who are going to, again, be on the map in twenty years are going to have to totally forget about profit for a few years. Forget about marketing and demographic preferences. Right now it's boutique Rum, boutique Vodka. Now it seems to be buying a bunch of grain neutral and naming it after a NASCAR driver or deceased legendary "moonshiners." It's got to be the case that artisans start solidifying some recipes and products that are made and mastered by the artisan, not determined by any outside considerations other than to have a quality grain based distilled beverage that competes with ANY other beverage in a glass, with no worries about what has to be written on the outside of that glass, or what size or shape that glass is. I see the need for someone to develop and highly refined single malt corn product that is uniquely aged in some alternative wood that ends up like a very fine cognac. Something like that. But it has to be in a way that it is derivative of the artisan, not something where you've got a name, a label, a marketing strategy, and make the product with that label in mind. That's done, it won't last. May get enough money to buy that new Ferrari and some additional investors, but will not be significant in 20 years. It has to be an "un-self-conscious" process engaged in over and over that yields a completely new set of conventions with the most traditional set of conventions for whiskey making. Again....like single malt Irish whiskeys. I suppose that Poitin, illicit all grain whiskey making, right now, is the purest form of the art on the planet. From all I've seen. Maybe I've watched one too many Hitler documentaries.

I went to Uncle Jesse's website to find it down. I was, and am, worried!!! I followed his journey from square one when he started several years ago.

Sorry to get, yet again, on the soap box. But this might get interesting.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by astronomical »

Dan Call wrote: I see the need for someone to develop and highly refined single malt corn product that is uniquely aged in some alternative wood that ends up like a very fine cognac. .
Very cool idea. I've been thinking along the same lines. Many say, DON'T use "that" brewers malt and I ask myself, "why?". There has gotta be some great whiskeys that could be made from nontypical grains (in certain proportions). While they may be expensive, you may find that you dont need much to add a dynamic that is purely original. Obviously I'm suggesting blended whiskeys. I think NCHoochs "piggybacking" method of sugarwashing spent grains from AG mashes proves this in a fell swoop. I had the idea before coming across that and I would go about it differently, but, the point is, it can make something new thats amazing. I think you're right that new roads will need to be taken.

Laws are changing and states want distilleries. Its additional revenue. While the "big dogs" try and keep us as bay, we keep pushing forwards. One step forward two steps backward, at times. The microbrew culture is a much more visual example of this. Their are legal battles being waged in the public eye. Microbrewers want the laws to be fair to them and anheuser and miller etc.. spend huge money to try and prevent changes. I think it'll get to the point where you'll be able to do what I'd dream of. Start small with a modest budget and slowly grow while always producing the same great product. A lot of things to consider though. Location is a big one. If i were to start a successful distiller in IL , and wanted to grow, I may have to move the whole distillery out of state. The laws seem to indicate that you cant have a "share" in any other distillery while running a distillery in IL. So after 15,000 gallons I'd be forced to buy outside spirits to process or move (I think).

I know you've been chastized for calling out a sugar head's lack of authenticity. The way I see it is it can make a damn fine product. I will agree that anyone looking to start up a distillery who just makes sugar head is kinda dreaming ambitiously. From what I've gathered, you couldn't ever label a sugar head as any type of whiskey. I've been spending most of my time distilling and learning new techniques, my legal take may be incorrect. I dislike the inferior take onsugar heads. I wish they were legal to market as whiskey. I'm in it for quality and I don't attach quality to effort. I consider quality to be the nose, feel, color, taste, and after effects. Color is psychological to me, so I must include it. I'm just finishing my bigger AG setup now. I share the sentiment that all grain is better, however, given a choice, I'd sell sugarheads as well as a more affordable option.

No doubt craft distillers can do better than just slapping their label on shit they didnt make. Marketing the piss out of it and screwing the locals into thinking they have a product made in their area. It puts a bad name on craft distillation. At least when cigar companies reband/brand the same cigar, for multiple companies, it's still good or crap (often great). It seems that the distillation world is mostly crap when its rebranded, though I have seen exceptions. Maybe thats a bit off, but, I want something new, not something new looking. I must admit that I've considered the idea though. I wonder how it'd be if you reprocessed this run of the mill neutral spirit and did tight cuts. Followed up by making gin and absinthe etc..

well.. i rambled some more... these are my opinions and im sure theres some misinformation.. take it with a grain of salt.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by WalkingWolf »

Keep rambling gents (if I may :egeek: ). Well thought out and written. Definitely a good read for interested parties.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Dan Call »

"Start small with a modest budget and slowly grow while always producing the same great product."

Exactly my sentiments. That's the whole point right there. I dont' have the money go start a big build with Vendome, and the idea of dropping 20-30K right off the
bat for a larger still. I can't see it. I can see a modular system with 8-10 small capacity collums working, but that has it's own issues, such as quality from unit to unit, liquid management.

I didn't realize I'd been chastised about all sugar....I thought I was the one doing the chastising.

Ian Smiley mentions, in his eponymous debut, that Millet makes probably the smoothest distillate of any grain. My first thought was "where's the recipe then?" Said that to say this, the small, bootstrapping, highly creative type of business and craft approach to this industry....it doesn't exist. It seems like the craft guys have to be half-pimp with and endorsement from a NASCAR legend just to get the state board licensed distributors to look at them.

And you do have to approach your state board with something that catches their attention. Another vodka with a cool name in a sealed waxed bottle isn't cutting it as much any more. State boards, at least in these neighoring states, are wanting you to make some mention of state specific sites and resources, sort've like built in tourism. They think of distilleries in the JD model, people will tour the distillery. Again, not in the offing for a boostrapping micro. It will be a few years before the boostrapping micro get his Nike Licensed Official hoodies and tee shirts.

Food for thought. What natural resources does the state have that can have something to do with a historical conduit to a distilled beverage. That's what I'm entertaining right now. The answer so far is "sweet potatos." Sweet Potato Vodka? Another Vodka in a market that is beyond critical mass in even boutique vodkas.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Coon-ass »

MitchyBourbon wrote:Well said. So do you have any thoughts on how us modern distillers can bring this hobby in to the light? And maybe make it legal.

I was chatting with my buddy by the fire pit the other night. He is a high dollar lobbyist for the drug companies. I asked what it would take to make home distillation legal. He said simply, I need someone to sponsor my bill. However, ain't gonna happen. Sure, I could get someone to sponsor it but the beer companies, liquor companies, etc... Would fight it very hard and their pockets are a lot deeper. They can pull in experts from all over to testify in front of the state reps saying people can get hurt, it's dangerous, etc... He also said that besides them, powerful family organizations old oppose it, religious denominations that don't drink etc....
He told me I could try but it would get crushed fairly quick
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by LWTCS »

ABC lawyer in my state tole me that I need a "champion" . And also finding favorable language within other states statutes can be helpful when trying to modify statutes within your home state.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by King Of Hearts »

Some great reading here. A friend of mine once had the pleasure of sitting down with none other than Fred Noe at his kitchen table. His sister once worked for Jack Daniels and he was visiting her. Any way it was an impromtu stop at his house one night for reasons I forget maybe car trouble. Fred asked his wife if she wanted a drink. She refused. Fred says, mame humor me, and went on to exlpain who he was and why she should humor him and have a drink. Well she never did but my friend sure did. He could tell the story a lot better than me and I know I left out good parts of it. So here was Fred Noe, great grandson of one of the great distillers, so proud of family and craft but he had to beg her to have a drink. So funny.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by goose eye »

popcorn was just one piece of the pie that makein up bootleggin. they make suger shine cause that
what the market demands. any one been brung up in the life laugh when fokes think that suger shine
was all there ever was before now. there has been an will be - what yall call craft distillers - good
made likker. yall mostly dont see it hear bout it cause it is closed. you aint born into it
you aint gonna see it an that includes marryin into it. aint no one lookin to get famous or rite
books or featured in no news paper.

so im tole
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Ayay »

Looking for a millet recipe?...quote from Wikipedia re, 'Shake Shake Beer'...

"In Zimbabwe it is known as "scud". It is sold in paper cartons or brown plastic containers with a wide blue lid. It is thought to be a drink for lower class people. This thick brown millet beer costs less than a dollar and it is shaken vigorously before drinking it because of its thick Layer of sediment collected on the bottom of the carton. It has a powerful yeast flavor that is offset by a lemony tang, surprising given the color. When the liquid has been consumed and you reach the bottom of the carton, standard practice is to slurp up the pile of sludge that remains."

Think of drinking a thin porridge out of a 4L bucket that gets you smashed whilst providing good nutrition. Said by someone or other, it continues to ferment in the stomach giving a constant supply of alcoh. The lower class peoples know how to party for days and nights and they're shakin more than the carton.

Boutique distilleries are in my experience a marketing gimmick. Fancy brochures and descriptive labels plus a token 'still'. Take the tour, sample the products, and lose lots of money for a fancy taste and a big headache.

Sugar shine aka UJSSM is the most efficient way to get good likker in the world class.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Dan Call »

I'm not sure what "boutique" distillery means. But I do know that there is a wave of new companies that rely primarily on marketing, and not on making good whiskey, for their business. They order up a batch of grain neutral and do something, very little, to it, put it in a fancy bottle, and there you go. "Junior Johnson's White Lightnin" or whatever it's called is actually classified as a vodka by the state of TN's classification system, and a perfect example of cashing in on the lore, rather than making good whiskey. On the other hand, there is a new distillery in Gatlinburg, right there on the main drag, where the vendome 300 gallon pot stills, cookers, fermenters, the whole bit, is right there in plain view. The master distiller is a young guy who was trained in distillation. He knows his business quite well, and pays very close attention to his cuts. Now, the Junior Johnson outfit has a more expensive still sitting on the premises than does the Gatlinburg operaiton, but one makes whiskey and the other one sells gain neutral in a fancy bottle.

Both of these could be considered "boutique," so could you expand your meaning a little bit?
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Ayay »

Precious things are kept quiet. You discover them and keep the secret.

Less valuable things are promoted because there's less secret to keep.

Expanding a bit, a few start-up Boutiques will deliver precious stuff and if it's really precious they withdraw into the realm of secrets. The others will advertise and promote and yell out, 'The Secret'. That's how snake oil works.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Dan Call »

+1

As hard as it is to imagine now, Maker's Mark was Kentuck'y best kept secret for many years, only being sold in that state for a long time. It is the grandaddy of all small batch bourbons. Never mind that Bill Samuels Sr. never made any whiskey, nor does Jr., and the whole story about the burning of the family recipe may be true, the recipe for the wheated bourbon was an old Weller recipe that Julian Van Winkle Sr. gave him before he started his star hill farm operation. Also of note was that the Samuels family were very wealthy by this time and Bill Sr. ramped up a tiny 19 barrel "at one run" distillery which was very small at the time, is still very large compared to a true boutique. Samuels was considered, at the time, something of a quirky eccentric for even attempting his experiment with Makers, but now it's a large corporate operation that suffers all the pitfalls of corporate ways, and few of the virtues of a small distillery. I will say that they have only doubled their total capacity ONCE and they still use all cedar planks in their fermentation vats and they have maintained that wheated recipe. Maker's used to be of a higher quality than it is now. It suffers mass production taste woes these days, but you can see that it was once a truly fine bourbon.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by FortyNiner »

Enjoying your posts, Dan. Your perspective is enlightening.

As a person with no experience, no mentors, no cultural/regional traditions or family history in distilling, this site and forum have become those things for me. Those of us that aspire to become true craftsmen at the art of distilling have to start somewhere, and plain sugar washes and recipes like UJSSM found on this forum are the training grounds. I agree that true, good whiskey is made in the fashion that you advocate, but the actual legalization and cultural legitimization of micro distilleries is going to be born from tens of thousands of hobby level distillers in their garages who learn by making simple sugar washes and build up their skills, step by step. I think that future innovative spirits won't be coming from giant corporations, but from micro, even garage level distillers who learned making simple stuff and built on it, much like it has with beers and wines. The big boys will then copy it and ram it down the throats of the masses.

Keep posting, please.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Dan Call »

49er, I agree completely and identify with your perspective. I am not a person that seeks mentoring relationships, too much of a lone wolf, in life, not just distilling.

As far as sugar washed go, it's surely part of the spectrum of doable things and is a safe place to start. My very first mash was all grain and I wish I had started with sugar because it would have been a gentler introduction into distilling because the prep process on all grain is much more strenuous and detracts from the enjoyment simply because of all the variables.

My thinking now is leaning towards a micro doing Irish style peated and unpeated. Irish whiskey is a fast growing market segment and much more in line with classic distillation scenarios than rum or vodka. Seems like most micros are either vodka or rum, with the worst just being grain neutral with flavoring and a fancy label.

Thanks for your comments.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Marshwalker »

wow..... :shock:
South....waaaaaayyyy south bayou blood can be as potent as that clear stuff coming out the still..
chris_adams
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by chris_adams »

Well said! :clap: I carry your point about Popcorn. Although I really love the trick about the Moonshiner show, it's still less with substance.
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AndyC
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by AndyC »

Millet sounds interesting

One resource for recipes like this might be these older distillation books on the internet

http://xnepali.net/kodo-and-and-distill ... pali-wine/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I suppose that Ian Smiley was talking about our local millet, I guess then all you need is the grain and the malt, I saw they had sprouted millet flour on Amazon so that might do the trick for a single grain millet whiskey or I guess a and b amylase would work as well.

Sounds like an interesting idea.

"Millet is a cereal grain that is very commonly used in home whiskey making, and is contended by many distillers to make the best whiskey of all the grains. Millet is a very soft grain compared to the other grains discussed above, and for that reason doesn’t require a full boil.
To mash millet, use millet meal and mash it by the same method described above for cereal grains, except that when the liquefied mash comes to boil, skip the 20 or 30-minute boil. The mash can then be cooled straight away to the conversion strike temperature and converted.
Another method is to bring the mash water to boil, turn the heat off, stir in the millet meal, and cool or force cool the mash to the conversion strike temperature. Then proceed as per the method for cereal grains."

Seems fairly straightforward

Cheap too if it were not for shipping
http://www.mannaharvest.net/millet-orga ... lling.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Medtwin
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Medtwin »

Articulate and well-thought posting, Dan.
I've been in homebrewing on a competitive basis for awhile and have been investigating the feasibility of opening a commercial microbrewery recently, even scouting out a location in the upper Midwest this summer and interviewing several comm brewers here in Atlanta. I've kinda decided against the $250K investment to make a low-margin, highly taxed product, transported and distributed (and ultimately sold) by others.
Distilling is another matter. I've seen incredible growth and innovation in brewing over the last ten or fifteen years, both in equipment design and recipe formulations. We are a richer beer culture because of microbrewing and the wonderful brews they have given us. And the commercial microbrew movement had (Has) its roots in homebrewing.
I wonder what innovations and creativity would be unleashed in micro distilling if all those home-distillers were legalized....
I think this distilling story has some mileage to it - we have not heard the end of the tale. Lots of odd sugars, specialty grains, flavorings and aging techniques to try...
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by rbw65 »

I'm with you Dan, I from the South, born and breed. I hate the term Hill Billy, When I moved to PA I took a lot of shit from Yanks with no knowledge of what the South really is like. Most folks from the High Country believe we are back woods and dumber an rock. I lived in CA for a while and it was worse out there with all the cliques they have. The idiots on who portray Moonshiners are Idiots, how could a fire chief make shine and go on tv to brag about it? i HATE those shows with a passion. What you said about Popcorn, ditto. He played and portrayed the Southern Hillbilly idiot to a T. But I respect that he made his living his way.

Since I discovered AG there is no turning back. You should know a lot of people in Scotland want and believe there should be Micro Distillers. But due to laws there never will be. I refuse to drink a Scotch with Grain alcohol mixed in. If it is not good enough to be a Single Malt, toss it. No JW or other blends. Just great Single Malt, that is a craft to reach for. Some Distillers are experimenting with different barrels and wood types now, Laphroaig has made a quarter cask and playing with putting staves into the barrel. Slow, but some change is coming to Scotland to our benefit.

I think one reason that a lot of new distillers are reluctant to turn a quality product out is time, but there are a few out there, look for those that pot distill and use no sugar and believe in aging techniques.

Happy Distilling to all
Keep em clean, Keep em lit
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Colorado_Kid »

Dan Call wrote: I give Popcorn Sutton credit for carrying that tradition. That's all I give him credit for. I hope no one takes offense at this, but I don't really think he has done any distiller any benefit, and he died the death of a coward. At worst, he was a tehcnicolor realization of all the worthless, stupid, and trivial stereotypes that people elsewhere think about the South, moonshining, and our culture. I think Popcorn Sutton took a big shit right in the middle of the culture I claim. He could have served the 18 months and been back here with us today making money off that new company, and he deserved, more than anybody, to make some money off of that and become a legal distiller. It would have been wonderful, and he would have had all he wanted, not that he seemed to be wanting alot to begin with. It was a shame and a waste. We were deprived of a walking legend rolled into one man, warts and all. So simple to avoid, such a waster. I don't respect that he did that. I'm mad at him for doing that. It was cowardly.
I see what your saying but Sutton had been diagnosed with cancer so even if he hadn't taken his life I doubt he would have been still around. It was a crappy thing the judge did making Sutton serve time in jail seeing that the only thing that would have come out of it was taxpayers paying for his medical treatment.

I have lived all over the United States but am originally from Maryland which is considered more a mid-atlantic than a southern state. When I lived in upstate New York people thought of me as a southerner but what really made me scratch my head was how many people thought that Pennsylvania was in the Confederacy. It is amazing what the North doesn't know about the South.
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by jmashspirits14 »

That is exactly why he took his own life before he was due to report for prison. He was dying and did not want to die in prison. He wanted to die on his own property. Can not blame him for that. Had he not been greedy and got caught with 4 or 6(i cant recall which) 800 gallon black pot submarine stills all active stills he would have never got caught. Trying to live soley on making moonshine WILL get you busted! Should it be illegal? No. Should it be illegal to make that much and sell it without a licenced distillery? Of course it should be! Who they need to leave alone are hobby distillers with 15 gallon or less stills making a little liquor for themselves. They will never allow home distillers to sell their whiskey because its too dangerous. They dont know if every individual is making a safe product or what they may be putting in it being greedy trying to make every dime they can. Ive heard of people cutting shine with bleach to make more money! Bleach! This and neglect while running a still are the two main reasons its illegal to make your own whiskey. 3rd Uncle Sam not getting his cut. But anyway the above is the reason Popcorn took his own life. And he really was only a legend where he was from. That crap about real moonshine only coming from Georgia, North and South Carolina, West Virginia, Tennessee, Virginia, and Kentucky is a bunch of horse shit!
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Bushman »

Somehow I missed this back in the first post in 2012. Ayay, as far as Millet goes I had a great taste at the ADI conference where Darek Bell owner of Corsair Distilleries and wrote the book "Alt Grains" gave a taste test of different whiskey's made from the non traditional four types of grains you currently find whiskey made from. If your really interested you might look for his book or Google him to find out more about different grains. Somewhere here I posted my findings from those different grain tastes.
moered
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by moered »

>I've Seen documentary after documentary about him, moonshine, etc. The most amazing to me is the youtube video shot by some kid where he proceeds to distill over thirty glass one gallon jugs with the still set up inside the house, running on gas, and him sitting there with a filterless Pall Mall hanging out of his mouth putting paste on the head going "That heat'll hit this and it'll git harder'n a minister's pecker.


Can someone point me towards that video? I can't seem to find it :(
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Cranky's spoon-feeding thread: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p7271807
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by jmashspirits14 »

Yeah, its a wonder that ole coot didnt blow his damn self up! My still is tighter than a virgins butthole and I dont even have a cell phone around when I run. Ive seen cell phones ignite gas fumes while pumping fuel, piss on that shit!
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Dan Call »

Wow, I didn't realize there was this much discussion. This is the one web site of all web sites where I genuinely respect the members because they're doing a craft instead of trying to be cool, or popular, or pile on. And these approving remarks are just plain appreciated gents, so kind.

The "Moonshiners" show has been in full swing for some time. I guess Popcorn does get the last laugh since he is the legend that drives that lore and swag of that show. No shortage of "ghost clips" in most every episode.

I occurred to me the other day that if real moonshiners were as idiotic and mouth as the people on those shows, moonshining could likely be stamped out because they'd all get caught. This bumbling idiot, talk ten times as much as necessary about any topic boring simpleton swagger is tiring to watch. Distillers are the smartest and most bootstrapping people around, and hard working. I think any distiller, should they bother, would be insulted or at least annoyed by that depiction. But more than anything they just can't be taken seriously unless it's just a "consumer" doing the watching.

The overall tone and depiction of Southern Americans is silly and condescending.
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Birrofilo
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Re: Moonshine, Culture and Marvin Sutton

Post by Birrofilo »

The judge cannot be blamed for condemning him after several times he was caught.

Killing oneself is never cowardice nor courage. It's one's personal choice on which IMO nobody can really pass judgements. He was ill and was going to die and he decided to die a free man. His life, his choice.

The question arising is: if a small, "artisanal" producer, wanted to act in accordance with the law, and install a micro-distillery, could he have done it with a reasonable cost (compared to the revenues he got) or is it impossible?

In Italy at the moment it is very expensive to get a new distiller license. For what I know, one has to comply with a host of industrial safety norms, and the entire farm will cost something like €200.000. This basically prevents new entrants in the market. The number of distilling licenses is the same since many years.

In other countries, such as France, the legislation favours the installation of micro-distilleries. One can start the activity without a large investment. It's actually a booming sector.

Although in general I think Popcorn Sutton was overall on the wrong side of the law, I wonder how was the local legislation and whether he had the possibility to operate legally, without making a huge investment that is.

Or is he one of those persons who think the state has no right to exact taxes and people is born naturally free from taxes and distilling licenses?

I remember reading many years ago of an American family which was basically exterminated by the Police. They simply refused to pay taxes, and considered their own land their own little state, and whoever entered without permission, was shot. When the Police came to arrest him (or them), he (they) reacted with firearms and a shoot out ensued.

Maybe Popcorn was one of those persons who just don't get the idea of "tax".
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