steam boiling

Steam powered cooking and distillation devices.

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demetroy
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steam boiling

Post by demetroy »

im looking into setting up a steam boiling system to go with my new still build coming up

after a bit of reading on beer brewing sites
im more inclined to use the jacket system and just coiling copper pipe around my boiler in a downward spiral so the condensed water will just drain out
planning on using a pressure cooker and just using threaded connectors with rubber around the joins to stop from de pressurization
going to use a ball valve 3/8 for heat control

the reason for this it takes far less energy to heat 5 or 10l of water than 50l (witch may be going to 100l) i am also considering just using the high temp pvc pipe (htep or something like that) and just coiling that around and sticking it on with something iv seen in my research that they use it

im wondering has anyone used this method and what success or failures have you had
as we all know that for larger batches this seams the only way they seam to do things im wanting to do this because of the price of gas hear at $24 for 9kg bottle witch gets me to do 3 50l stripping runs and a bit for a few bbq's so running my still costs a bit
demetroy
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Re: steam boiling

Post by demetroy »

also forgot to add that im going to take lots of pics to show how i do this and post if it fails if i do fail or show as instructional if it works but any input will be appreciated
mash rookie
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Re: steam boiling

Post by mash rookie »

Interesting idea. I have been giving thought on how to build a simple steam heated boiler. Most are full jacket and would be difficult to build on a small scale. Copper tubing is expensive but would work if you fully wrapped the boiler. Plastic will not transfer heat but would be cheap.

Good Luck. I will be following your thread. Get busy!
Prairiepiss
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Re: steam boiling

Post by Prairiepiss »

How big of a boiler ate you going to have on your still? A pressure cooker steam boiler seams very small? And I personal wouldn't use anything synthetic in a steam system?

After looking into steam systems. I'm leaning more towards steam injection. That could be used for both distilling and cooking corn for a mash. But I'm always interested in getting ideas from others steam systems. Not many of them around.
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myles
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Re: steam boiling

Post by myles »

It was some time ago and never got developed, but you can also build the coil in as a structural part of the wall of the boiler. Just use thin copper sheet to form the inside lining of the boiler, and use the big coil as part of the wall.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... ilit=steam

Steam inside the coil and insulation outside of it. There is a whole website devoted to steam heating of vats and boilers that is full of all sorts of good info.

http://www.spiraxsarco.com/resources/st ... ansfer.asp
demetroy
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Re: steam boiling

Post by demetroy »

through looking at the commercial ones i also thinking of half a 44 over the boiler and some sort of detectable bottom attached to hold the steam with a pressure relief or a tap something to hold some of the pressure inside as the pressurized the steam is hotter
i think i can get a 10l pressure cooker fairly cheap otherwise ill just get 2 ss stockpots 15l and weld together and get a pressure relief valve
i am not yet 100% sure yet with what way ill go as i am constantly reading on this currentally but once i am ill let you guys know what is happening
its all mostly to do with price of materials and time to get it working

and im happy with the bbq and the normal stove top steamer for corn
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Re: steam boiling

Post by Prairiepiss »

I'm past stovetop. And I'm starting to think the 15 gallon brew system I'm building ain't gona be big enough. That's where the steam cooker will come in.
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demetroy
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Re: steam boiling

Post by demetroy »

Prairiepiss wrote:I'm past stovetop. And I'm starting to think the 15 gallon brew system I'm building ain't gona be big enough. That's where the steam cooker will come in.
well this is future plans for me im thinking 44 gal plus but this is to get the theory part down pat
and the boiler upgrade would be 44 gallon or 88 gallon as i have 4 44 gallon drum fermentors

that would have me knocking over lots at once and spending less time in front of the still but i would keep the 50l boiler for smaller batch recipes
myles
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Re: steam boiling

Post by myles »

demetroy wrote:through looking at the commercial ones i also thinking of half a 44 over the boiler and some sort of detectable bottom attached to hold the steam with a pressure relief or a tap something to hold some of the pressure inside as the pressurized the steam is hotter
i think i can get a 10l pressure cooker fairly cheap otherwise ill just get 2 ss stockpots 15l and weld together and get a pressure relief valve
i am not yet 100% sure yet with what way ill go as i am constantly reading on this currentally but once i am ill let you guys know what is happening
its all mostly to do with price of materials and time to get it working

and im happy with the bbq and the normal stove top steamer for corn
Don't take this the wrong way - but I think this is a BAD idea. Home building of a pressurized jacket boiler is not something you should even consider UNLESS you also do the work as your normal day job. Or your welder does.

Saturated steam OK, low pressure steam also OK, but high pressure stuff should not be on the agenda. If you want to use bath temperatures of over 110 degC, you should either buy a propper (certified and tested) steam jacket, or build your own double boiler, with any of a wide range of thermal transfer fluids instead of steam.
demetroy
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Re: steam boiling

Post by demetroy »

might have to talk to my friend who is a specialty welder among other things but i know he does alot of things that are not to different from this stuff now to just talk prices with him
thanks for the heads up though i was thinking of just rolling some ss and welding it onto the boiler with pressure relief valves witch is probably what ill have done
nb0s
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Re: steam boiling

Post by nb0s »


Demetoy wrote
the reason for this it takes far less energy to heat 5 or 10l of water than 50l (witch may be going to 100l) i am also considering just using the high temp pvc pipe (htep or something like that) and just coiling that around and sticking it on with something iv seen in my research that they use it


It will take the same amount of energy to heat 100l regardless of how you do it. Think about it for a minute It might take less time to boil 5l creating steam but that does not mean that your 100l batch has been heated to boiling point. No, you have to keep boiling the 5l circulating the steam through the wash and then reclaim the steam or refill the steam generator until you reach the desired temperature and then you have to continue pumping energy into the wash to change the ethanol from a liquid to a gas (boil).

Most commercial distilleries use steam but that is because steam allows finer control of the heating and most importantly at the heating interface, be it the bottom of the keg for LPG or the surface of the element for an immersed electric element there is significantly less temperature differential. This means the wash does not burn creating unpleasant furfurals.

For most home distillers the most efficient method is via an immersed electric element and a well insulated boiler. Amongst the most inefficient is LPG - just feel the heat rising up the side of the boiler.

Costs, now that's another matter. It all depends upon the cost of your energy.
myles
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Re: steam boiling

Post by myles »

nb0s wrote: Most commercial distilleries use steam
This is a valid point, but let us put it in context. Most commercial distilleries use steam because they have it readily available. The steam is there anyway because it is used in other parts of the process also, so it makes sense to heat the boilers with it.

If someone wanted to set up a full on scaled down all grain distillery, mashing grain, possibly malting it also, then it makes perfect sense to use steam. However if you are creating steam ONLY to heat the boiler then it probably would not be cost effective.

I would like to use steam, and I would go down the steam injection route. Not only for steam injected mashing, but also for a steam injected boiler. I know it is a very OLD technique but it does work to charge your primary boiler with water and have your main still (in effect) a great big thumper. Your first 2 boilers in a steam rig are traditionally the same size.
maheel
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Re: steam boiling

Post by maheel »

have a look at a few commercial coffee machines and their boilers (Italian espresso not drip-a-lator)

the majority are copper and electric powered (some gas fired and some are stainless)
they have built in pressure relief valves and also pressure stats so you can set and regulate the steam pressure (certified steam boiler tank)
most have auto fill water solenoids and brain boxes for water
they have lots of interesting plumbing giving you heat exchange and steam capabilities
plenty of other interesting parts in them as well

they come in a range of sizes from say 2L up to ? (i have a 13L one in the shed)

i often look at them (coffee is another hobby of mine) and think how i could easily create a steam injected grain mash tun for my beer making

you can often pick up a old clunker for $100 or $200 that still runs fine just looks ugly but ripe for re-purposing
tickle
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Re: steam boiling

Post by tickle »

This is something I am interested in. Inject steam into a mash tun for temperature, ferment on the grain, distill on grain,again, via steam injection. Has this project progressed? Or are there other members who can chime in? There seems to be valid and legit interest in this. Can a mod perhaps combine or group together some of the threads?
myles
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Re: steam boiling

Post by myles »

Here are some basic numbers from the brewing world to play around with.

Mash boiling by steam injection: If you wish to boil for 90 minutes it consumes 15% (by weight) of your starting volume in steam. In other words to boil 100 litres for 90 minutes will take 15 kg of steam (15 litres of water converted into steam).

You still have to heat your starting volume to boiling point first - that takes more steam and ALSO increases the volume.

For example.
If you heat 100 litres of water by steam injection from 20 deg C to 80 deg C, you end up with 106.8 litres at 80 deg C.

Water 4200J/kg/deg C
BTU x 0.000293 = kW
kW x 3414 = BTU

It is possible but there are a few calculations to do. I can see the merit in a steam injection strip boiler for processing a fermented mash that is thick with grain - but for other applications you do need to think about the economics of it.

If you have a cleared fermented wash one of the cheapest ways to process it is with an electric immersion element. However, try that with a thick mash and you are asking for trouble.

Different tools for different jobs.

If you have the luxury of stilling outdoors or in a shed where steam leakage is not going to be a problem there is another option. Take you 55 gallon drum, cut it in half lengthways and use it as a water filled boiler over gas for a copper liner for corn cooking / fermenting / distilling, all in the same pot.

This is a potential copper liner and hood, just use bolts to fit the hood when you are ready to start distilling. I would add an external header tank with a float valve to the drum boiler to keep the water level topped up.
cornHD.PNG
No use without good ventilation or outdoors, as it will leak steam from the drum boiler into the air.
tickle
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Re: steam boiling

Post by tickle »

Myles,
As always, a great answer. I built some of the "pintoshine" style injectors for mashing all grain that people have been really happy with, was wondering how much more could be done with them....Kinda like tater's avitar type of thing. But because I wonder about it doesn't mean its possible, or even a good idea!
ozone39
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Re: steam boiling

Post by ozone39 »

might look into a vertical standpipe set up....Basically a pipe that runs up the center of the pot that capped off just below liquid level...super basic and works well....
thinking inside the box is for squares....
tickle
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Re: steam boiling

Post by tickle »

Ozone! I will pm you as to not take this too far off the op's direction. It sounds like you have tried what I am thinking of...
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Re: steam boiling

Post by ozone39 »

The attached schematic is what they call a monoflow steam piping system...The most basic way to utilize steam heat. Really all is needed for this to work is a graded (2% back to the boiler) oversize supply line and use eccentric reducers if you reduce or increase any where with in the horizontal run. This is so the condensate can run back to the boiler ...You control heat by either pressure, or using a control valve on the supply line. Using a presstrol switch (adjusting pressure) on the boiler would be much more accurate and user friendly (commercial kitchen steam pots control with pressure) than using a gate or ball valve (do not use globe valves, they can restrict the condensate from flowing back to the boiler)...Hope this helps...As well keep in mind that the tank (heating tube portion) needs to be elevated above the outlet of the boiler....
Attachments
monoflow steam tank heater.pdf
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thinking inside the box is for squares....
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