Steam distillation

Steam powered cooking and distillation devices.

Moderator: Site Moderator

User avatar
jedneck
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3769
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: drive to the sticks, hang a right past the sticks amd go a couple more miles.

Re: Steam distillation

Post by jedneck »

Just had an idea. Instead of using the steam jet to stir the mash up, why not use an upside down funnel to give surface area to radiate the heat with the steam bubbling out the edge. Would seem to be safer than trying to restrict the steam to increase velocity.
Attachments
14463005841130.jpg
welcome aboard some of us are ornery old coots but if you do a lot of
reading and don't ask stupid questions you'll be alright most are
big help
Dunder
User avatar
Brutal
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 6:02 pm

Re: Steam distillation

Post by Brutal »

Jed I think that and the spiral posted on the last page are both good ideas. They will do most of their heat transfer through the copper pipe and should keep pressure down. Your cone design looks like it would create some pressure over a straight pipe though. If the steam is trying to displace that much area it seems like the pressure would be more to do so. But, if you think about it, a long coil of pipe when filled with steam would also displace a lot of water (mash).. I think I was too drunk last night to be commenting about that this early in the morning today.
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
User avatar
jedneck
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3769
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: drive to the sticks, hang a right past the sticks amd go a couple more miles.

Re: Steam distillation

Post by jedneck »

Here is the next experiment. I just rooted the junk bid and found a piece of sheet and an old 1-3/4 reducer. There is a strand of 10g wire rolled into the lip for strength. It just slips onto the 3/4 inch down pipe. It will also do double duty as a funnel.
Attachments
14463075312670.jpg
welcome aboard some of us are ornery old coots but if you do a lot of
reading and don't ask stupid questions you'll be alright most are
big help
Dunder
User avatar
FreeMountainHermit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1769
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:45 pm
Location: Two Dogs Holler, West Virginia

Re: Steam distillation

Post by FreeMountainHermit »

Cool beanz. I never could roll a cone.
Blah, blah, blah,........
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Steam distillation

Post by shadylane »

Here's my latest hair brained idea. A rotating steam injector.
Attachments
Rotating steam injector (400x400).jpg
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Steam distillation

Post by shadylane »

The problem is the thick mash doesn't heat evenly. And that's an understatement. If it was liquid, convection currents would stir it.
The thick mash will get boiling hot near and above the injector, then the steam bubbles will rise and break the surface before giving up it's heat.
Now there are two problems. The mash isn't heating uniformly and the alcohol vapor is diluted by the escaping steam bubbles.
How do we work around the problems?
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Steam distillation

Post by shadylane »

The first and simplest idea is to make the mash thumper tall, skinny and insulated.
The rising steam would heat everything above it uniformly.
The down side is tall and skinny doesn't hold much.
There are small scale commercial versions of this. They are built to fill and empty quickly.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Steam distillation

Post by shadylane »

Just realized I have several 5 gallon korny kegs left.
This experiment might take a change in direction.
User avatar
Truckinbutch
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 8107
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Steam distillation

Post by Truckinbutch »

I'm beginning to lean toward a double boiler setup for cooking and stilling . That's how my Momma cooked up a batch of cornmeal mush to keep it from scorching and that worked well . Water bath surrounding the boiler instead of injecting steam into the mash . No pressure issues or condensation overfill . Boil or simmer and replace evaporated off water externally at any point without risk . Just thinkin .......
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Steam distillation

Post by shadylane »

A double boiler is a good option but has it's own set of problems.
User avatar
Truckinbutch
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 8107
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Steam distillation

Post by Truckinbutch »

Yea , but they don't involve overpressure and puking do they ?
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Steam distillation

Post by shadylane »

There's some posts on bain marie stills. Over pressure, venting and a safe working fluid are some of the problems.
User avatar
S-Cackalacky
retired
Posts: 5990
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Steam distillation

Post by S-Cackalacky »

I'm sure at some point there will be an out-of-the-box solution to evenly heating an on-the-grain wash. This thread seems to be getting into brainstorming mode to try to address that issue. What are some of the facts?

We know that the grains restrict the convection of heat that you would normally have in a pure liquid. The heat becomes localized because the liquid is restricted from movement by the presence of the grains. The result is that localized heat up allows vaporization to take place over an extended period of time until the entire body of wash comes up to heat. Until total heat up is accomplished, fores and heads will be released and smeared into the distillate over a longer period of time.

So, the problem is - what to do about getting up to heat more quickly, or how to prevent the early vapors from reaching the condenser.

A light bulb moment - how about a dephleg on the output. That is, reflux the early vapor back into the steamer until the whole body of wash has a chance to come up to heat.

Any other thoughts on this?
Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
User avatar
jedneck
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3769
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: drive to the sticks, hang a right past the sticks amd go a couple more miles.

Re: Steam distillation

Post by jedneck »

SC
I thought about doing that but my primary is on the small side and I would have to shutdown and refill. But I guess that wouldn't be a problem, I was doing that went I started with steam till I got a feel on water usage. I guess I could reflux till secondary is at temp then shutdown and refill then start collection.
I got a leak in the steam supply line I need to fix. If I get it done I'm gonna do some testing.
welcome aboard some of us are ornery old coots but if you do a lot of
reading and don't ask stupid questions you'll be alright most are
big help
Dunder
User avatar
S-Cackalacky
retired
Posts: 5990
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Steam distillation

Post by S-Cackalacky »

I may be imagining things, but I think I remember someone else, maybe not in the context of this thread, but somewhere, mentioning something about turning the liebig (PC) vertical (pointing up) and using it for temporary reflux. That might also work in this situation instead of a separate dephleg.
Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
User avatar
S-Cackalacky
retired
Posts: 5990
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Steam distillation

Post by S-Cackalacky »

jedneck wrote:SC
I thought about doing that but my primary is on the small side and I would have to shutdown and refill. But I guess that wouldn't be a problem, I was doing that went I started with steam till I got a feel on water usage. I guess I could reflux till secondary is at temp then shutdown and refill then start collection.
I got a leak in the steam supply line I need to fix. If I get it done I'm gonna do some testing.
Jed, could you not use your fill port to add boiling water to your primary? Might be a risky business - handling boiling water.
Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
User avatar
jedneck
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3769
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: drive to the sticks, hang a right past the sticks amd go a couple more miles.

Re: Steam distillation

Post by jedneck »

That was randymarsh. I have a 90 after the union that connects the Liebig to the still head. I'm thinking point it to the ceiling and tie it off for support. When boiler is at temp kill the power and refill primary and drop the Liebig for collection.
welcome aboard some of us are ornery old coots but if you do a lot of
reading and don't ask stupid questions you'll be alright most are
big help
Dunder
User avatar
jedneck
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3769
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: drive to the sticks, hang a right past the sticks amd go a couple more miles.

Re: Steam distillation

Post by jedneck »

S-Cackalacky wrote:
jedneck wrote:SC
I thought about doing that but my primary is on the small side and I would have to shutdown and refill. But I guess that wouldn't be a problem, I was doing that went I started with steam till I got a feel on water usage. I guess I could reflux till secondary is at temp then shutdown and refill then start collection.
I got a leak in the steam supply line I need to fix. If I get it done I'm gonna do some testing.
Jed, could you not use your fill port to add boiling water to your primary? Might be a risky business - handling boiling water.
That is what I do but I use hot tap water. Boiler comes back online in a couple minutes. And don't have to handle boiling water.
welcome aboard some of us are ornery old coots but if you do a lot of
reading and don't ask stupid questions you'll be alright most are
big help
Dunder
User avatar
S-Cackalacky
retired
Posts: 5990
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Steam distillation

Post by S-Cackalacky »

jedneck wrote:That was randymarsh. I have a 90 after the union that connects the Liebig to the still head. I'm thinking point it to the ceiling and tie it off for support. When boiler is at temp kill the power and refill primary and drop the Liebig for collection.
Sounds like a simple solution to a complex problem. Let us know how it works.
Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
yakattack
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1755
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:37 am

Re: Steam distillation

Post by yakattack »

I think running the rc till the secondary is up to temp is a good option. Here's another.

When running the secondary there has to be some liquid I'm it still. So why not run a false bottom say 3 to 6 inches above the bottom, and have the steam inject into the liquid bath. Allowing it to heat more evenly as a consequence.

Just a thought,

Yak
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
User avatar
Brutal
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 6:02 pm

Re: Steam distillation

Post by Brutal »

All of these ideas could be made to work. Depending on the individual set up many of these could be useful.

You have to prevent uneven heating with steam or any other heat source. Uneven heating is exactly why a gas fired boiler will scorch grains.

For most steam set ups:
A tall slim boiler, steam at the bottom and heat rises to the top mostly evenly,

Turbulate the mash, through steam pressure or by manual agitation,

Spread out the steam injection points.

#3 might be the easiest and maybe the safest. Lets say your vessel is round and 2 foot wide by 2.5 feet tall (just for example.) If you make a cross shaped injector head with outlets evenly spaced you can eliminate cold spots. This would not need any pressure to do so. If your vessel has a small opening you could make a detachable injector head in a "Z" shape, slide it down into the boiler, then attach to your injector down pipe after it's inside.
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Steam distillation

Post by shadylane »

The Idea I'm thinking about is having one injector and move it by hand every so often.
The seal and bushing could be made out of a compression fitting and O-ring.
Swivel fittings are relatively cheap.
This design could tri-clamp and fit in a keg bung. A 3/4 to 1" fitting would be needed for the vapor outlet.
Attachments
hand stirred.png
hand stirred.png (5.43 KiB) Viewed 5719 times
User avatar
Skipper1953
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:08 am
Location: USA

Re: Steam distillation

Post by Skipper1953 »

I use agitators (stirrers) with folding blades at work. I drop an agitator through a 6 inch opening in a 265 gallon tote (IBC). The blades deploy to about 12 inches when the motor is turned on. I also use a mixer that fits through a 2 inch bung hole in the top of a barrel. The blades deploy to about 6 inches or so. I'm not sure you could buy something for our application but you could probably make something quite serviceable based on the design of the mixers I use. I'll add a link to this post after the Packers are done getting their asses kicked.

edit: Aw, hell. Just do a Google search on "folding agitators". You'll get more hits than you know what to do with.
User avatar
S-Cackalacky
retired
Posts: 5990
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Steam distillation

Post by S-Cackalacky »

S-Cackalacky wrote:
jedneck wrote:That was randymarsh. I have a 90 after the union that connects the Liebig to the still head. I'm thinking point it to the ceiling and tie it off for support. When boiler is at temp kill the power and refill primary and drop the Liebig for collection.
Sounds like a simple solution to a complex problem. Let us know how it works.
Just another thought on this - If you turn the liebig upside-down would you need to reverse the cooling water connections?
Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Steam distillation

Post by shadylane »

Bubba found the answer to the problem of uneven heat and it's real simple.
Insulate the hell out of the mash thumper and fill it with a thin mash.
By thin, I mean a mash not thicker than 2 or 3 pounds per gallon.
varocketry
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:15 pm
Location: somewhere not near Detroit

Is this what I need: BOILER BRASS PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE SET

Post by varocketry »

As the New Year beckons, I want to set the steam rig built. Is this the steam pressure relief valve I should buy? 15 psi?

Or something similar, is this the recommended psi, etc?


NEW 3/4" WATTS 415 BOILER BRASS PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE SET @15 PSI 450 LBS/HR
15psireliefvalve.PNG
-Just need something else to build. -
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Steam distillation

Post by shadylane »

That'll work. Also 6 foot tall manometer made out of clear plastic tubing to keep track of the pressure.
That will let you know when the injector is starting to plug up before it becomes a problem.
varocketry
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:15 pm
Location: somewhere not near Detroit

Re: Steam distillation

Post by varocketry »

Shady:
Where in the plumbing do you connect this tubing? Do you have a pic?

Thanks btw ..
-Just need something else to build. -
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Steam distillation

Post by shadylane »

Here's an older pic
Attachments
DSCF0003 (400x300).jpg
varocketry
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:15 pm
Location: somewhere not near Detroit

Re: Steam distillation

Post by varocketry »

Capture.PNG
-Just need something else to build. -
Post Reply