Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby HDNB » Sun May 03, 2015 6:49 pm

shells wont hurt the mill they be softer than dry corn.
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby shadylane » Sun May 03, 2015 6:51 pm

HDNB wrote:shells wont hurt the mill they be softer than dry corn.

That's what I'm thinking, calcium carbonate will raise the pH and help the enzymes for conversion
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby Brutal » Sun May 03, 2015 7:22 pm

Added 2 gallons of murky thumper strip run backset from the all corn and 3 gallons of cool water. It's down to 163 according to my shitty thermometer. I have a sample cooling in the fridge to test pH. Shortly I will know the result of that test and decide to assault some shells with the mill or not. If the pH isn't at least 4.8 I will work on it.

I am concerned with the ph thing but not that concerned. The squeezin's from the all corn started fermenting again at room temp by converting starches in the clearing containers. It was about 4.0 pH and in the 60's in those containers. It takes longer but these enzymes seem to get it done even under incorrect temp and pH conditions 2 weeks after mashing.
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby Kegg_jam » Sun May 03, 2015 7:40 pm

For me on, a smaller scale, potassium bicarbonate works the quickest. Baking soda being quick as well. The shells seem better as a buffer and work slower.

That's just my limited experience.
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby yakattack » Mon May 04, 2015 5:15 am

Sounds like you're getting good conversion for 1,7 # per gallon. That will be my next attempt. I have my grape crusher I may try for grinding the grain more. My big batch is ready to squeeze tonight ( first night with the press, no more Popeye squeezing ).

Adding the shells in is a good buffer, but I've just been using baking soda and lemon juice/ backset. This batch definitely is more sour, as I used 8 gallons of hot backset with the soak.

Good job mate, it really is so much easier doing batches this way :)
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby chris_zx2 » Mon May 04, 2015 6:05 am

Brutal wrote:Well as usual I seem to have gone too far into tails. All my likker turned slightly cloudy in a day...


Is this a tried and true method to tell if you overshot into tails!? That would explain a lot for me! I have a real issue going to far into tails. I feel like before aging the tails taste good further into the run. Not sure if you have this issue brutal, but maybe the best idea would be to age the last few jars of tails (that we would normally add) separately?
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby carbohydratesn » Mon May 04, 2015 7:26 am

It doesn't necessarily mean you went *too far* into tails - it just means that you are in the tails. Whether you've overshot or not is up to you.

Aging late tails separately won't do much, they will still turn cloudy.
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby Brutal » Mon May 04, 2015 10:16 am

Yea I blended it all together now. Its not dark, just a little cloudy. I think it tastes great! I kinda like tails, early tails anyway. Its been an ongoing issue for me.
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby chris_zx2 » Mon May 04, 2015 10:17 am

I just get slight cloudiness when I shine a flash light through....not sure if that's normal?
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby yakattack » Mon May 04, 2015 10:52 am

Brutal- just a thought, you may not be being to greedy. It is a pot still so there is less than optimal separation right? Maybe just running a bit to fast on the spirit run? I know when I get near the tails ( by proof drop) I slow down even more to get a cleaner seperation.

This may be more of what you are seeing. I could be wrong lol but it was just a thought.
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby Brutal » Mon May 04, 2015 6:41 pm

I got good news! Mostly! My mash made it all the way from last night till now without any infection. Mashing in the fermenter works! The only kinda bad news is the low SG. I knew that was probable when going as low as 1.55lbs/gal. SG right now is 1.040. I thought maybe I didn't get good conversion, but I did an iodine test and it came back completely clean! So even with all the worries of low pH it still worked perfectly. No doubt the malted grains had something to do with that. So now I have a pitcher of wash diluted to probably 1.015-1.020 that I added 1/4 cup of rehydrated DADY yeast to fizzing away happily. I'm about to go mix the whole barrel up and dump this in. WOOHOO! LIKKER!!
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby yakattack » Wed May 06, 2015 3:04 am

Brutal wrote:I got good news! Mostly! My mash made it all the way from last night till now without any infection. Mashing in the fermenter works! The only kinda bad news is the low SG. I knew that was probable when going as low as 1.55lbs/gal. SG right now is 1.040. I thought maybe I didn't get good conversion, but I did an iodine test and it came back completely clean! So even with all the worries of low pH it still worked perfectly. No doubt the malted grains had something to do with that. So now I have a pitcher of wash diluted to probably 1.015-1.020 that I added 1/4 cup of rehydrated DADY yeast to fizzing away happily. I'm about to go mix the whole barrel up and dump this in. WOOHOO! LIKKER!!



:p its an awesome experience isn't it brutal. I just squeezed my second batch yesterday using my wine press. Best investment ever. Pour the entire barrel in one bucket at a time
Drains all the mash, then press dry. Takes almost no effort. And out of it all I maybe lose 4 gallons to the corn. So if you have access to one use it. Better then poppeye and ass press and mop pail combined.

I am thinking of pressing right after cooking, so that it's a cleaner ferment.
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby engunear » Sat May 09, 2015 1:04 pm

The cloudiness is puzzling. Have you diluted it yet or is it at 60-80%?

Tails on their own are commonly cloudy (the water won't dissolve the high molecular weight non-polar things - the fusel oils I guess), but when they get mixed back in with the heart it tends to clarify as the fusel oils will dissolve in the alcohol, particularly high alc content. Its like Ouzo, where the oils precipitate when added to water.

What is the temperature there? Most whiskeys are chill filtered so they don't go cloudy if the bottle is put in a fridge, or when they get mixed with ice, but I've not seen problems at room temp. There can also be problems diluting with hard water as the various (polar) salts don't dissolve in alcohol.

BTW, Brutal, this is a great thread overall. I've been following it quite closely, waiting for the next episode.
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby Brutal » Sat May 09, 2015 7:58 pm

I probably shouldn't have mentioned the cloudy thing. I really believe the problem is my taste. If I stop my mix at the first sign of tails it doesn't happen, but I like that part. Got to save me from myself. I have a plan to make a safeguard for next time. I collect in quart jars and do not will them fully. I stop at the top of the vertical part of the glass. So next time after airing I plan to dump a shot glass full of distilled water into each one and let it sit for a day before blending. It's usually at 75% on average so it's not going to dilute it enough to hurt anything. Hopefully the offending jars will show themselves before I taste my way into them.

I find cuts on an all grain considerably harder than the sugar washes I used to make every week. Seems like on the sugar the heads were gross until they were gone, and the tails were still pretty tasty until the wet dog came to town. Now with all grain it's like the taste is constantly changing. The hearts aren't all the same, the heads aren't really gross except for the beginning part, and the tails... well the tails are pretty good too. And after running a "1.5" run to strip, and then going low wines through a thumper there ain't much wet dog or cloudy at all.

My current barrel of mash seems to be done. It had a very thick cap on it that I stirred back down on thursday night. It was over an inch thick and was getting kinda hard. I had hoped to get it all run this weekend but with the holiday, and some other things that came up it's not going to happen. Guess it gets to clear for a week.
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby engunear » Sat May 09, 2015 8:27 pm

Yeah, I find cuts really hard too. My problems come from a love of old red wine, and the good ones will rip the inside of your mouth out when young. A famous Australian wine was described as being "like crushed ants". So I like lots of tails too. I'm making whiskey to age, and I fear if its nice now it will be without character when old. And drinking Maker's Mark recently, I was surprised at the amount heads in it. Not that I like that heads taste but a bit is good. I have whiskeys that had a total abv of 60% at the end, which is low. But I don't get cloudiness. Why it is so much fun I guess, all these unknowns.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.

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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby chris_zx2 » Mon May 18, 2015 7:05 am

I had some black label the other day and noticed the strong heads as well. I think I'm personally just going to far in the opposite direction.
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby Brutal » Fri May 29, 2015 5:19 pm

26 days later.. Going to start working on the barrel tonight.

Couple things:
1. my new refractometer is not to be trusted. I guess. While loading the boiler I put a little sample on there and it read 1.020. I could not believe it because it was only 1.040 to start, and I can smell the alcohol in it. So I broke out the hydrometer and it reads 1.000. Now I don't know if the SG was right because I think I just used the refractometer and took it's word for it.. I guess there's no telling how much likker is in there but it smells about normal fwiw.

2. I am not going to strip everything and then combine it like before. With this being a potentially low abv wash I am worried it will strip too much flavor out. I am going to combine 12 gallons of filtered "clear" wash with the gallon of cloudy corn and just run it one time through the small thumper. This way it will bring the flavors, and I will have some to take to the s3 meeting in case I can't get all I want done this weekend. I'll still strip the rest and combine it with the feints from today's run later.

That's the new plan.

The mash in the barrel has a nice amount of powdery shit on it, and it smells pretty good.

Gonna be a late night. I'm going to try to get a start on building a new condenser design while running. It's going to be cool and I think you guys will like it.
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby Fills Jars Slowly » Fri May 29, 2015 5:47 pm

Brutal wrote:1. my new refractometer is not to be trusted. I guess. While loading the boiler I put a little sample on there and it read 1.020. I could not believe it because it was only 1.040 to start, and I can smell the alcohol in it. So I broke out the hydrometer and it reads 1.000. Now I don't know if the SG was right...


Are you taking into account the correction factor for a refractometer reading taken after fermentation? Here is a link to a calculator: http://www.brewersfriend.com/refractometer-calculator/

My refractometer has always been pretty accurate, but it does take the correction factor to get the gravity after fermenting right. Just an idea.
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby Brutal » Fri May 29, 2015 7:47 pm

Fills Jars Slowly wrote:
Brutal wrote:1. my new refractometer is not to be trusted. I guess. While loading the boiler I put a little sample on there and it read 1.020. I could not believe it because it was only 1.040 to start, and I can smell the alcohol in it. So I broke out the hydrometer and it reads 1.000. Now I don't know if the SG was right...


Are you taking into account the correction factor for a refractometer reading taken after fermentation? Here is a link to a calculator: http://www.brewersfriend.com/refractometer-calculator/

My refractometer has always been pretty accurate, but it does take the correction factor to get the gravity after fermenting right. Just an idea.

Thank you. I appreciate the link. I did not realize there was a difference when alcohol was present. I used that calc and it still doesn't agree with my hydrometer, and it indicates 3.92%. I know my nose is not a gauge but it seems like it's more than that. Looks like after that they want you to write out a whole spreadsheet to determine the error of the refractometer in wort.. That's just not going to happen. I love accuracy but I don't have the time to do it. I'll go back to the hydrometer for now. Maybe one day I will refract but I don't have the brain power tonight. It's been a rough couple weeks and Image

I forgot I got new ptfe gaskets for my 2" boiler and thumper connections. I cut the raised ring off one side but they are still too thick for the triclamp to fit. Since I can't think of a smarter way to do it I plan to sit here with a file and slowly work it down. Hopefully I can get this show on the road tomorrow. Maybe I can get some sleep too.
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby Fills Jars Slowly » Fri May 29, 2015 8:12 pm

No worries, I worked through the same thing when I got a refractometer. You said your OG was around 1.04 and your FG via hydrometer was 1.000. That works out to an alcohol content of about 5.1%, right? Different refractometers have different scales, but if yours is one with a dual Brix/SG scale and you used the SG scale to take your readings go back and find what Brix readings those align with.

Given the numbers you post, it seems like you started at Brix = 10ish and ended with Brix = 3ish. If you find that is the case then the refractometer is likely ok. If that is the case, in the future ignore the SG scale and read the Brix, then convert to SG using the factor of your choice ( SG = 4 x Brix is a rough guide for unfermented wort/mash). When it comes time to find FG use the Brix OG and a calculator like the one in the link.

Can be frustrating until you get the hang of the whole conversion thing. The good news is, once you have a recipe dialed in and really need only relative readings, the refractometer is a lot easier. Of course, once you have it dialed in your 5 senses tell you pretty much everything, per your sniff/taste test.
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Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby Kegg_jam » Sat May 30, 2015 4:18 am

My refractometer's been reading around 15 brix to start and finishes around 4 or 5. By then I have enough clear to use a hydrometer.
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby jedneck » Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:37 pm

Figure this is the best place for my question.
I am stripping right now and wanna cook the next batch right away. Instead of draining the backset out of the boiler what is the thought on removing my Liebig and putting the steam injector and cooking with the hot backset? Anybody see any downfalls.
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby HDNB » Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:08 pm

just don't boil it dry.
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby jedneck » Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:27 pm

HDNB wrote:just don't boil it dry.

12 gallon charge, pulled 2+ gallons of lowwimes, 9+ gallons backset left. Should take 5 gallons to gel 25# of wheat flour.
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby HDNB » Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:37 pm

Only mentioned it in case you were drinkin' :moresarcasm:

hehehe. apparently you got the new element installed eh?
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby yakattack » Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:43 pm

Jed. I've cooked with backset a few times. Just keep an eye on the pH to adjust as necessary
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby Brutal » Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:47 pm

Yea as long as you don't over shoot the pH for your high temp enzyme it shouldn't be a problem. No need to waste the heat.
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby shadylane » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:00 pm

Here's a new question.
What's the pH of the vapor coming out of the boiler when DEEP into the tails. aka boiling backset?
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby yakattack » Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:47 pm

To subjective of a question. Easy mash will be different. We use backset to change the pH so having that used as the steam driven heat will be changing the pH as compared to using water.

It will also take slightly longer to heat your new mash up to Temps as there will be a slightly less temperature difference. The difference should really be very minimal.

If you pitch shells in your mash this will be no problem anyways.

I use the hot water from the condenser to start bringing my grains up to temp so on my last strip run my condenser water fills my barrel with the water I need to cook my.next batch. This water is usually about 130 degrees or more. Then soon as strip is one my injection head attaches to my condenser. I kill the cooling water and finish my cook from there. No heat up time for the boiler. And the mash is already half way cooked by that time (usually wheat ad I've been doing my vodka out of wheat lately)

Yak
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Re: Mashing 100lbs of cracked corn with steam injection

Postby Brutal » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:45 am

yakattack wrote:To subjective of a question. Easy mash will be different. We use backset to change the pH so having that used as the steam driven heat will be changing the pH as compared to using water.

It will also take slightly longer to heat your new mash up to Temps as there will be a slightly less temperature difference. The difference should really be very minimal.

If you pitch shells in your mash this will be no problem anyways.

I use the hot water from the condenser to start bringing my grains up to temp so on my last strip run my condenser water fills my barrel with the water I need to cook my.next batch. This water is usually about 130 degrees or more. Then soon as strip is one my injection head attaches to my condenser. I kill the cooling water and finish my cook from there. No heat up time for the boiler. And the mash is already half way cooked by that time (usually wheat ad I've been doing my vodka out of wheat lately)

Yak

Great post buddy. Have you ever posted a picture of your injector attached? I remember talking to you about it but just can't remember what it looks like.
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
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