Steam Mashing in a Bag

[rgreen2002]

I wanted to move this because it was inside another thread and I wanted to get more input (maybe brag a little )

If you have not see my previous post that led up to this and you want to understand how I got here: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 92&t=62146

So today I started with the mash: about 45# of corn in 30 gallons of water...in a bag.

The mash.jpg

I added my Alpha amylase and brought it up to about 190 for 90 minutes (this was following an overnight pre-soak):



I stirred it with my paint stirrer intermittently the whole way up until 190F.


I was worried the paint stirrer would get tangled up in the bag but it was perfectly fine...

And that is where we stand.... I am waiting for temp to drop which should take some time. Then a little 2 row, some white wheat and a small amount of rye I have left over along with my Beta amylase.

[rgreen2002]

Starch.jpg

Couldn't keep my damn hands outta there. Still at 170F...It might be a long night!

[Snackson]

Looking good! Try setting a fan up blowing at it to help cool it down.

[Brutal]

Looking good. I am looking forward to hearing how this all works out for you. I abandoned the idea of a BIAB and just decided to ferment on the grains. In your current set up you have the SS mesh that is only needed to keep the grains out, and you have the BIAB that is also to control grains. I don't think you need both but I am interested in how it works out for you. I do admit that the finished ferment on the grain is kind of a mess. In my current project I plan to strip run on the grain eliminating some of the problem with the mess. Well not eliminating it but "removing it from distillers consideration." Anyway please keep sharing your exploits in steam. I enjoy it a lot and love being able to see ideas explored. Thank you for sharing!!!

[rgreen2002]

Snackson - Thanks Man...I may just have a box fan floating around here somewhere.

Brutal - your rig started all this! You made it look so damn easy. I agree with you and am already thinking of some mods for next time (ya know...after this 30 gallons...). I was talking with acfixer69 over at AD and he had a great question that leads me to believe you can put the steam head right in the bag! I'm too far gone now for it but I definitely want to do that next. All the agitation of the steam with control of the grain...are you kidding!

I plan on fermenting on the grain...in the bag just to see how that goes here as well.... I've come this far...not giving up that grain flavor now. If it works I will only have to filter out yeast/trub and with my ga flatwoods geotextile do-dad...this should be a cinch.

Do keep me informed on the strip on the grain.. are you planning that with steam also or just old school?

[Brutal]

Steam is old school baby.

[rgreen2002]

Steam is old school baby.

....classic!

[rgreen2002]

As of this morning I still have starch present and a temp of 135F. It isn't instant black...there is a little yellow/brown and as I mix she turns darker. Got a quick SG on my refractometer... around 1.055 so it looks good. Gave it one last stir and closed her back up. I am assuming the beta amylase is still working its magic in there and I hope to get to at least 1.06 later today which would get me into the near 7% range. Then a pitch on the grain, in the bag, to see whats what!

[Fart Vader]

Nice setup for sure.
Good job.

I'm just waiting to see how you lift that bag out of the barrel.
Soaked grains are going to be heavy!!!

[MichiganCornhusker]

I might have missed it, but what is your grain bill? Are you just using cracked corn out of the bag?
I think you are also using some barley malt and rye, how much?

Depending how coarse the crack is with your corn, iodine can be tough to clear even with good conversion. SG 1.055 doesn't sound too bad, just wondering how much grain per gallon.

Also, curious about the bag. If you are planing to use GeoFabric to strain, is the bag just sort of a pre-filter?

Nice to see your progress, good luck with the ferment.

[rgreen2002]

I might have missed it, but what is your grain bill? Are you just using cracked corn out of the bag?
I think you are also using some barley malt and rye, how much?

Depending how coarse the crack is with your corn, iodine can be tough to clear even with good conversion. SG 1.055 doesn't sound too bad, just wondering how much grain per gallon.

Also, curious about the bag. If you are planing to use GeoFabric to strain, is the bag just sort of a pre-filter?

Nice to see your progress, good luck with the ferment.

Thanks MCH.... was hoping you might drop in. I am using cracked corn from the bag that I milled in my corona. It does a fairly good job... I mean its not flour or anything but it does make a difference.

The grain bill was a straight wheated bourbon that became a little hodge podge of a little leftover rye and oat as well.
Roughly:
Corn 45#
White wheat: 10#
2 row: about 10#
Malted american rye:2#
flaked oat 1#
Alpha and beta enzymes at about 0.5 ml/lb grain ( I overshot a little due to panic about a large volume)

I started with 30 gallon water and I think with the steam I added about 5 gallons so I'm close to 2#/gallon in the end.

The bag is from my other post: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p7418258 and that thing has held up well. That weave reminds me of the paint strainer material you are now working with but I do not know the pore size...small sounds about right.

I was hoping you would say that about the iodine as well.... my feeling is that I am never going to get all that starch converted (I soaked for a day then ran at 190 for 90 min with corn, then all the other grain as well) but the 1.055 I can live with for now. Beersmith calculated my SG at 1.068 and to have about 7% ABV so I think that is fine and I am still above temp and hoping those enzymes are working away.

I will ferment with the bag in place. Bertha has a 1/2 inch spigot on the bottom and i will drain her that way. There is a little grain in the water now just because I can't be completely neat and spilled a hair in there...oh well. My plan was to drain her, hang the bag to get the drippins out and the strain most of the grain through the paint strainer (5 gallon type) .

To remove the yeasties I will use the geotextile thing we talked about from the Best method for separating corn from mash:

41HCa--000L.jpg

It here in the thread: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p7419667

That thing cost 99 cents on amazon (the obligatory shipping brought it up to like $6) and that frame fits my barrel well. It came with some openings in it oddly enough but I sewed them shut and it should be fine.

That's where I am..... hopefully by today it will drop to temp and I will stir one more time along with a starch, SG, and pH check. Then pitch and go! So far this thing is going very well and will of course finish the write up as it is available...

[rgreen2002]

Nice setup for sure.
Good job.

I'm just waiting to see how you lift that bag out of the barrel.
Soaked grains are going to be heavy!!!

LOL.... very true fart.
I bought rope ratchet that will hold 250 lb( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006P ... UTF8&psc=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow ). The bag is good for about a hundred so I will probably scoop some out first to be safe.
The worst case scenario... I'm too concerned for the bag and I drain all the liquid into 5 gallon buckets then work separately with the grain.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I bought rope ratchet that will hold 250 lb( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006P ... UTF8&psc=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow ). The bag is good for about a hundred so I will probably scoop some out first to be safe.
The worst case scenario... I'm too concerned for the bag and I drain all the liquid into 5 gallon buckets then work separately with the grain.

Recipe sounds good, the enzymes will continue to work on the starches if you're fermenting on grain. That's not a bad OG for that much cracked corn.
I find that my buckets of damp grain after filtering weigh almost as much a the clear liquid, almost 8#/gallon.
You have around 68# of grain in there = over 500# when wet or damp.
With your spigot on Bertha, and grain in bag, your method might work just fine. Just open the spigot and let it drain for a day or so and see how dry the grains get.
I'm not sure you need to worry about lifting the bag out of the liquid, just let the liquid drain away from the bag.
Will be watching for updates.

[rgreen2002]

I bought rope ratchet that will hold 250 lb( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006P ... UTF8&psc=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow ). The bag is good for about a hundred so I will probably scoop some out first to be safe.
The worst case scenario... I'm too concerned for the bag and I drain all the liquid into 5 gallon buckets then work separately with the grain.

Recipe sounds good, the enzymes will continue to work on the starches if you're fermenting on grain. That's not a bad OG for that much cracked corn.
I find that my buckets of damp grain after filtering weigh almost as much a the clear liquid, almost 8#/gallon.
You have around 68# of grain in there = over 500# when wet or damp.
With your spigot on Bertha, and grain in bag, your method might work just fine. Just open the spigot and let it drain for a day or so and see how dry the grains get.
I'm not sure you need to worry about lifting the bag out of the liquid, just let the liquid drain away from the bag.
Will be watching for updates.

I've seen a few estimations of how much water the grain will hold but I never thought 500#! Whew. In that case I will be picking up a few more 5 gal buckets. I will eventually have to get the grain out though which has me scooping it out in the foreseeable future!

Of course if the bag breaks... the grain removal does get easier... I would be out about $60... Thirty for the bag and thirty to replace it...

Thanks for the info MCH.... will keep posting. Still at 128F....keep going enzymes!

[shadylane]

Looking good
Where did you get the Beta amylase and what temp did you add it at?

[rgreen2002]

Looking good
Where did you get the Beta amylase and what temp did you add it at?

LOL... I just realized I've been mixing up my plants and humans... Sorry about that Shady....its glucoamylase (SEBamyl GL from Enzymash)

It went in at a shade under 150F and is still working its magic (I hope)...

[rgreen2002]

That being said... https://secure.megazyme.com/Beta-Amylase-Barley" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Slightly cost prohibitive i think....but with 2000 degrees lintner (I think thats what it says) and a shelf life of 4 years as 4oC...maybe not! Maybe a group buy.

"One Unit of β-amylase activity is defined as the amount of enzyme required to release one µmole of glucose reducing-sugar equivalents per minute from soluble starch (10 mg/mL) in sodium phosphate buffer (200 mM), pH 6.5 at 40oC." - God how I hated chemistry...where is my micromole calculator again!

[shadylane]

Looking good
Where did you get the Beta amylase and what temp did you add it at?

LOL... I just realized I've been mixing up my plants and humans... Sorry about that Shady....its glucoamylase (SEBamyl GL from Enzymash)
It went in at a shade under 150F and is still working its magic (I hope)...

Yes, the Gluco is converting the dextrin's as needed, into simple sugar for the yeast.

[shadylane]

Back on the great subject of Steam Mashing in a Bag.
I don't remember anyone else posting about this

[acfixer69]

Rgreen as the bag is lifted it losses wieght rapidly. The total weight of water and grain in the tun may approach. 500 lbs but as you lift the bag it reduces rapidly. Simple block and tackle works fine I have lifted over 50 lbs of UJ corn while wet out of my 55gal poly fermenter after drainning to the boiler.
Glad to see you posted over here.

AC

[rgreen2002]

Rgreen as the bag is lifted it losses wieght rapidly. The total weight of water and grain in the tun may approach. 500 lbs but as you lift the bag it reduces rapidly. Simple block and tackle works fine I have lifted over 50 lbs of UJ corn while wet out of my 55gal poly fermenter after drainning to the boiler.
Glad to see you posted over here.

AC

Thanks AC. Things are going smoothly with the project and I hope to be able to pitch tomorrow. Next time I am going to throw the steam wand right into the bag... it looks pretty good so far. I'm already fixated on what I'm going to do when it comes time to drain!

[rgreen2002]

OK...so I finally made it to pitch temp after almost 2 days(right about 80F). Whew!

When I opened Bertha I was greeted with a ball of floating grains:

Floating grain.jpg

The problem was that they were floating above the water line. If they have any starch left in them...I want it! I spent about 20 minutes stirring them to get them saturated and sunk again and then I tied the bag closed with some cotton twine. This made it so the straps would not come out of the slots so I had to improvise...

Tied Up.jpg

Then I went for the much anticipated science:

Hot Damn.jpg

I called this 1.059... the refractometer also read the same.

Starch test:

Starch....jpg

So not full conversion (rats) but not pure black anymore either. It was the sweetest tasting thing I may have ever tasted. Almost got diabetes form the taste.

Finally.. pH was 3.7... a bit low so I threw in a little gypsum that I had as well as a few handfulls of shells and then pitched my yeast.

Closed her up and will check on her tomorrow to see if she is fizzing away. I don't have a blow off tube because the CO2 should leak out of the slots I made for the straps now that the straps are not in there.

We're Expecting...booze.jpg

So far the bag has been a huge success in my book. I have a little grain outside the bag because I am sloppy and an idiot at mixing with the drill... but I think it will pan out OK. More to come...

[DeepSouth]

If your grains were floating on top you probably got a wild yeast strain that started the fermentation but your pitched yeast should take over and you'll probably be OK. Even so, the wild yeast might give you a good flavor. Distillers relied on wild yeast for hundreds of years after all

[MichiganCornhusker]

If your grains were floating on top you probably got a wild yeast strain that started the fermentation

Houston we have ignition!
You can always let you house yeast roll on, I've had some success with that.

[shadylane]

The steam mashing in a bag appears to be a winner
But there's a reason wort chillers are used
On a side note, since your using alpha and gluco for conversion,
The malt could be heated enough to pasteurize it even though, that would denature the natural enzymes.

[rgreen2002]

If your grains were floating on top you probably got a wild yeast strain that started the fermentation but your pitched yeast should take over and you'll probably be OK. Even so, the wild yeast might give you a good flavor. Distillers relied on wild yeast for hundreds of years after all

Deepsouth - Thanks! This is good to know. I never really gave wild yeast a thought but the corn is tsc feed corn so good chance!

The steam mashing in a bag appears to be a winner
But there's a reason wort chillers are used
On a side note, since your using alpha and gluco for conversion,
The malt could be heated enough to pasteurize it even though, that would denature the natural enzymes.

shady... always keeping me straight . It's an excellent point and my wort chiller was like 5 feet away. I did consider it but this is a few firsts for me, mostly the bag and the volume. I have been taking notes for changes in the future! If it threw all the grain in together while steaming the corn I could pasteurize it but would I lose any flavor? I tend to think no but...

You can always let you house yeast roll on, I've had some success with that.

Let it roll baby, roll!

[shadylane]

If it threw all the grain in together while steaming the corn I could pasteurize it but would I lose any flavor? I tend to think no but.

I might be wrong , but from my limited experience.
At higher mashing temps, the phenolic taste from the barley husks might carry over into the distillate more.
But the starches in the malted grain will be gelatinized better for the store bought enzymes to convert

[rgreen2002]

If it threw all the grain in together while steaming the corn I could pasteurize it but would I lose any flavor? I tend to think no but.

I might be wrong , but from my limited experience.
At higher mashing temps, the phenolic taste from the barley husks might carry over into the distillate more.
But the starches in the malted grain will be gelatinized better for the store bought enzymes to convert

So it's a win win...

[rgreen2002]

So she is bubbling away in there today... sounds like bacon cooking! It smells just amazing and I am really looking forward to running this one! She's locked up for the duration now...see ya in a week or so.

[MichiganCornhusker]

...as you lift the bag it reduces rapidly.

AC is absolutely right, my math figurin' in my 500# post made no sense at all.
I just drained a batch of rice, and I'd say your entire bag of damp grains will weigh around 100#, so you are good to go.