Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

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Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:33 pm

Got my boiler back from the welder today. STOKED. Had 6' legs welded to bottom of Sankey half barrel. bought a stainless pot about 2" larger around than keg. Had 2" long sleeved ferrule cut to length and welded to bottom of keg side wall for mash dump. He cut a hole outter pot and dropped keg in off cnter and slipped 2" sleeve through jacket pot hole and welded in place. Also welded 1" coupler for heater element, 1" off bottom of jacket. will have a ring fabbed to sell top at gap between vessels and outfit with PRV/VRV valve and a pressure gauge in a month or so when I save the dough for final mod. Plan was to 50/50 ethyl Glycol/H20 under 5 psi. in the interim I will simply put 3 more gallons of chosen fluid than once steam ready...What fluid should I use for now?

GD
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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby Yummyrum » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:52 pm

:D Mate Ethylene glycol is poisonous .
You would be better of using the food grade Propylene Glycol just in case there is a leak or other cross contamination issues .

It is sold n HBS specfically as a heat transfer fluid . It's dearer than the cheaper ethylene glycol used in car radiators but you can't spend your money when your dead .
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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:31 am

Yummyrum wrote::D Mate Ethylene glycol is poisonous .
You would be better of using the food grade Propylene Glycol just in case there is a leak or other cross contamination issues .

It is sold n HBS specfically as a heat transfer fluid . It's dearer than the cheaper ethylene glycol used in car radiators but you can't spend your money when your dead .

Well I understand the intent behind your recommendation, I have a leak tested both vessels, and there is no co mingling.

GD


But may just buy it so there's no issue in my mind.
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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby Windy City » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:22 am

Check this out.
http://noblecompany.com/storage/docs/re ... st_PIG.pdf
We use Noburst 100 a lot at work but for this application I would use Super Noburst.
Just remember you do lower your thermal conductivity as compared to straight water.

Also I would strongly recommend an expansion tank such as this
http://www.amtrol.com/media/documents/e ... lflyer.pdf
Make sure you pipe it with a heat loop so it is not seeing excessive temperatures.
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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby Yummyrum » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:05 am

Guerilla Distillah wrote: Well I understand the intent behind your recommendation, I have a leak tested both vessels, and there is no co mingling.

GD


But may just buy it so there's no issue in my mind.


Yeah good stuff GD , i'm sure your set up is top notch but Shit does happen so its good to cover your arse . :thumbup:
Can't for the life of me find it but there was a fairly recent media beat up here where some one died and Shine was associated with having been mixed with Antifreeze ...but then again , thats the media :clap: ...anyway , back on topic :ewink:
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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby joeymac » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:00 am

Why not use plain water?
It's almost free, no worries about leaks into mash, and transfers heat better.
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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby LWTCS » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:44 am

joeymac wrote:Why not use plain water?
It's almost free, no worries about leaks into mash, and transfers heat better.


He's not cooling with it and at the moment not running a pressurized vessel.
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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:24 am

LWTCS wrote:
joeymac wrote:Why not use plain water?
It's almost free, no worries about leaks into mash, and transfers heat better.


He's not cooling with it and at the moment not running a pressurized vessel.



Zackly. straight water will just evap. Did just get off the phone with a local(ish) metal joint that will sell me a 20" X 20" square of 16 ga for $45 out the door....DONE!! I'm a courier and I deliver payroll pkgs to business... 100's of 'em...:) Have managed to curry a few relationships with businesses I service that I need. A bakery gets me food grade molasses at cost for rum. 2 produce distributors who are EXCITED to have someone to take the occasional unusable(for a multitude of reasons) fruit off their hands and save the disposal costs. Well, I have a cool machine shop with some drinkers on staff. They will water jet my seal ring for a 1/5th of rum. LOVE the ease of trading end goodies for fab workin the sport of Zymurgy!!!

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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:26 am

Windy City wrote:Check this out.
http://noblecompany.com/storage/docs/re ... st_PIG.pdf
We use Noburst 100 a lot at work but for this application I would use Super Noburst.
Just remember you do lower your thermal conductivity as compared to straight water.

Also I would strongly recommend an expansion tank such as this
http://www.amtrol.com/media/documents/e ... lflyer.pdf
Make sure you pipe it with a heat loop so it is not seeing excessive temperatures.



Will take a look at those links. thanks.

"Just remember you do lower your thermal conductivity as compared to straight water."

Can you elaborate on this for the "More-Stoner-than-Scientist" sort like me?

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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby Windy City » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:52 pm

LWTCS wrote:
joeymac wrote:Why not use plain water?
It's almost free, no worries about leaks into mash, and transfers heat better.


He's not cooling with it and at the moment not running a pressurized vessel.


The way I understood him was that he is going to "sell" (I guessed he meant seal) the unit.
If he does seal it he will need an expansion tank or over pressure, catastrophic tank failure and injury are likely.
Although Noburst advertises their freeze protection heavily, it is designed as a heat transfer fluid with a much higher boiling point than water. Noburst HD has a high limit temperature of 325f and Noburst Super is 275f. If the system is closed and therefore will become pressurized, that will also increase boiling point.
Part of the idea of using a product like this is if you are running above boiling ,(212f at sea level) let's say 240f at 10psi if you have a tank failure you should not have flash steam, also known as BOOM!
The loss of thermal conductivity with this product is about 20%.
With all that said above I must strongly caution you about building a sealed vessel that will be heated to extreme high temps. If not built properly with all conceivable safeties and over engineering it could become a very dangerous item with high risk of injury or death!!!
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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:42 am

OK, I understand you're not doing anything but give me the tools to stay safe. With that in mind, my goal is to make sure that I am not setting up something dangerous. I am not certain, and it's most definitely solely due to my own ignorance, why an expansion tank is necessary if I am going to include a pressure gauge as well as a PRV/RVR on a 2 inch TC Ferrule. I do not mean to come off as arrogant or dick-ish in any way here. But I'm also not into spending for more than I need. Just trying to understand everything before I make final modification decisions. Picked up my metal today and it will get cut into the ring next week. I think I have decided to go with straigh corn oil until I become pressurized at which time I will probably just go straight water.

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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby Windy City » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:30 pm

I truly appreciate that you are not being arrogant or dick-ish and are just asking questions to learn how to properly do this.
I also am not trying to be arrogant or dick-ish with my replies, but trying to give the best and safest information to you and others that will read this.
I design, build, install and service large boiler systems for a living. Due to that I felt I needed to give a very strong warning on things that can go wrong. With that said let's get on with the discussion :D

The need for the expansion tank in a closed system is because no matter what liquid you use, it is going to expand when heated. A pressure relief valve (prv) is only supposed to be used as a safety device and should NEVER be used to control pressure. If you tried to operate the way you want to, this is what would happen.
As temperature rises pressure would rise, you will find pressure rising faster than temperature and before you reach setpoint (your desired temperature) your prv will blow releasing liquid. Prv's do not always reset and you have no way to replace the lost liquid. Your pressure gauge will just confirm this and frustrate you because you will not be able to reach setpoint without over pressure.
To use a liquid, just like steam to transfer heat to your product your going to want the largest
delta T (differential of temperature) that you can sustain. 40 degrees f is a good number to work with. Now your looking at a heating liquid to be between 240f to 250f. This is where if you are not extremely careful things could get very dangerous.
I would like to strongly advise you not to surrender to using corn oil or plain water due to cost. If you can't afford to do this project with all safeties involved find a different way. You only have one life and being burned/scalded to death is not the way I would like to finish this science experiment we call life.
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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:28 am

Windy City wrote:I truly appreciate that you are not being arrogant or dick-ish and are just asking questions to learn how to properly do this.
I also am not trying to be arrogant or dick-ish with my replies, but trying to give the best and safest information to you and others that will read this.
I design, build, install and service large boiler systems for a living. Due to that I felt I needed to give a very strong warning on things that can go wrong. With that said let's get on with the discussion :D

The need for the expansion tank in a closed system is because no matter what liquid you use, it is going to expand when heated. A pressure relief valve (prv) is only supposed to be used as a safety device and should NEVER be used to control pressure. If you tried to operate the way you want to, this is what would happen.
As temperature rises pressure would rise, you will find pressure rising faster than temperature and before you reach setpoint (your desired temperature) your prv will blow releasing liquid. Prv's do not always reset and you have no way to replace the lost liquid. Your pressure gauge will just confirm this and frustrate you because you will not be able to reach setpoint without over pressure.
To use a liquid, just like steam to transfer heat to your product your going to want the largest
delta T (differential of temperature) that you can sustain. 40 degrees f is a good number to work with. Now your looking at a heating liquid to be between 240f to 250f. This is where if you are not extremely careful things could get very dangerous.
I would like to strongly advise you not to surrender to using corn oil or plain water due to cost. If you can't afford to do this project with all safeties involved find a different way. You only have one life and being burned/scalded to death is not the way I would like to finish this science experiment we call life.



Ok, let me start with, I am ONLY planning to use corn oil for a couple weeks until I get jacket sealed and welded. So oil will NOT be under pressure. Now, any help with how to incorporate an expansion tank? I've only ever removed and replaced the one on my water heater. What do I need to plan and design for my welder to modify my situation to include one?

Thanks

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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby Yummyrum » Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:29 am

Windy City ,nice to get advise from people that understand these things :thumbup:
I'm curious about this topic as I too was thinking about doing something like GD .

I would like to strongly advise you not to surrender to using corn oil or plain water due to cost.

I am wondering why you advise against using oil

So seeing that you suggest that the liquid must be around 40 deg higher than the temp you would want in the boiler , would it be an easier and safer option to use oil but have it vented not sealed .
I'm thinking here that even if the oil had to be heated way above the boiling point of water in the boiler , the oil is still nowhere near its smoke point and has a very small expansion rate compared to water so surely if its vented as well wouldn't it be safe ?

EDIT posted same time as GD
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Re: Heat exchange liquid suggestions...

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:10 pm

Ok, not discounting ANYthing HB Had to say but after some further research, and consulting several sources I have decided that my system which will have a total space for 12 gallons of liquid but will only need about 5 gallons of liquid to safely cover my element, that a pressure gauge, a potentiometer on my element controller, a TESTED PRV/VRV attached to a 2" sanitary fitting covered with a small bucket to semi contain the discharge should valve blow(set for 5 psi)and 10 yrs on oil barges and the common sense/experience to know to monitor constant running equipment with diligence and attention to detail, SHOULD be enuff safety coverage. Only true benefit I see in MY situation to oil over water is the reduced lag time on second run of double run days...which I have very few. For me, the cleanliness of a water only discharge over oil or glycol or antifreeze mixed ways out. Thoughts?

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