flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

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flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby yakattack » Sun May 07, 2017 9:29 am

Hows it going everyone,

First off, a disclaimer. :!: :!: :!: while i am decent at math, self teaching in this regard was never my strong suit. This is why I am asking for help here :econfused: :!: :?:

Now that being said, here are the specifics of the situation.

1 electric steam generator - 50l capacity. 1 4500w 220v (30amp breaker) and 1 - 1500w 120v element. 2 inch tri clamp steam outlet.

2 steam mashing wand. 1/2 inch copper to half inch square head, with 1/8th of an inch holes drilled at 45 degree angles from bottom. previously used 2 inch pot still head and reduced to 1/2 inch.

3 new 30 gallon boiler with 2 inch steam injection head perminantly welded in, fed by a 2 inch tc fitting that remains capped as the boiler can also be run with 2 electric elements for rum and off grain ferments.

currently i do not have a way to run my steam generator as I have not fabricated the connections between them yet.
This is where I am asking for help with some of the math.

my origional intention was to use a short length of 1/2 ich csst to run the steam mashing wand. And to keep the steam injection boiler all 2 inch hard line. this would be done with four 2 inch 90 tc bends and a 2 inch tc spool aprox 12 to 18 inch length.

however, what would i be looking at in terms of speed loss to just use the same 1/2 inch ccst .

so i need a formula that i can use to determine vapor speed and ammount transfered between vessels over given time frame for given ammount of power beween using 1/2 inch feeding 2 inch and just keeping it completely with 2 inch.

assume steam generator filled with 10 gllons of water at 212f water generating steam at 6000w (both internal elements runing full tilt) feeding steam boiler with 25 gallons of wash at 20 degrees c and an 8% abv charge

what I want to know

Time to heat boiler
time to complete run assuing full tilt stripping run

assume same thermal efficency for both scenerios.

if theres not much difference between the two, i will just use the csst for both as i have it on hand. otherwise i need to buy all the fittings for the 2 inch.

Thanks in advance guys, Im really lost as to how to do this type of calculations blind

yak
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby Ben Stillin » Mon May 08, 2017 8:58 am

I use a steam and hot liquids food line reinforced silicone from webresturant store. Its about 13 dollars a foot
2" Boka on a sanke and a 4" 6 plate flute
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby Brutal » Mon May 08, 2017 7:13 pm

yakattack wrote:what I want to know

Time to heat boiler
time to complete run assuing full tilt stripping run

assume same thermal efficency for both scenerios.

if theres not much difference between the two, i will just use the csst for both as i have it on hand. otherwise i need to buy all the fittings for the 2 inch.

Thanks in advance guys, Im really lost as to how to do this type of calculations blind

yak


The diameter of your piping will have no effect *directly* on the performance of your still. It can provide a restriction though. Considering the power you are going to put to it I don't know if I'd risk a 1/2" corrugated crossover.

As far as thermal efficiency goes, there will likely be a significant difference. 2" pipe will have so much more surface area that the heat radiated will be far greater than that of the small 1/2" tube. Time to heat and time to complete WILL be affected by the extra heat loss.

Borrowed from Sciencing.com
"The time it takes to heat an object depends on its mass, its heat capacity and the rate at which you supply energy."

While we might not know the exact values, we can see what will change. Total mass will go up. Heat capacity will go up. While not listed in the quote heat loss to atmosphere/environment will go up. Those will make the run take slightly longer. I'd be willing to bet its less than 15 minutes on a run total. In fact if you insulate well enough the difference might be moot.
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby yakattack » Tue May 09, 2017 4:51 am

That was my thought too brutal.


Here's where I get hung up. The 1/2 line is an obvious constriction. But it will also increase the vapor speed until it drops back to 2 inch. With the same power and insulation, not including heat up times dedicated by thermal mass, will I lose much power with the half inch line over the 2 inch line. Or will the restriction simply cause the vapor to accelerate through the line moving about the same amount of hot steam as a 2 inch pipe but faster.

I think I'm going to just make the fitting and see. Since I need it for steam mashing also.

Edit to add.

The steam boiler will only see water, as water will transfer more energy to the main boiler as opposed to running wash in the steam generator.
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby BoomTown » Tue May 09, 2017 5:51 am

yakattack wrote:...

1 electric steam generator - 50l capacity. 1 4500w 220v (30amp breaker) and 1 - 1500w 120v element. 2 inch tri clamp steam outlet.

currently i do not have a way to run my steam generator as I have not fabricated the connections between them yet.
This is where I am asking for help with some of the math.
.....

yak


Is this a commercially produced unit? If so, are there spec sheets available?
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby yakattack » Tue May 09, 2017 6:53 am

Just my beer keg. So pressure isn't an option, although I can have one made.. my welder is a boiler maker and designs and builds them for a living.

Whigh begs that question boom- how much power can a 1/2 line take before it's size becomes to much a restriction and cause pressure build up?
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby shadylane » Tue May 09, 2017 1:09 pm

yakattack wrote:...how much power can a 1/2 line take before it's size becomes to much a restriction and cause pressure build up?

All I know is my 15 gallon boiler heated with 5500w
Venting out a 6ft long piece of 1/2" corrugated SS
Has slightly less than 0.0360912 psi :lol:
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby yakattack » Tue May 09, 2017 1:56 pm

Perfect. So that means no pressure build up is possible. That's the safety aspect covered. Thanks shady
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby bentstick » Tue May 09, 2017 2:36 pm

Not a Physicist, but the only"pressure" or resistance you should have from steaming is that put on the opening/exist size of steam wand/tube due to the amount of water or grains setting above the wand/tube which is negotiable compare to what is being generated in the steam generator. yea-nay?


:wtf: where that come from!
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby DAD300 » Tue May 09, 2017 5:08 pm

I would suggest the largest diameter CSST line you can afford, all the way from boiler to mash tun.

But the safety issue is, you need alternate steam releases in case of a plug. Generally acceptable is one on the boiler vented to a safe place. The lower the pressure fail setting of the safety release, the safer the system. Commercially this would be 5 lbs. NOT the 150lbs most hot water tank safety releases offered at the big box stores. The home made version is an open water filled manometer vented to a tank of cold water outside.

Don't get caught up in, "cooper will transfer heat better than the CSST." The CSST compensates very well by being a thinner wall structure. Why have joints when you can have a continuous wand.

As for the math...the boiler steam will be 60-80% (how well insulated you are, how long the lines are, etc) of the power you deliver to the boiler. So, a 5,500watt element in the boiler will deliver approx 3,500watts to the steam wand.
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby bentstick » Tue May 09, 2017 5:27 pm

"Don't get caught up in, "cooper will transfer heat better than the CSST." The CSST compensates very well by being a thinner wall structure. Why have joints when you can have a continuous wand."


Has absolutely nothing to do with the subject!
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby yakattack » Wed May 10, 2017 2:36 am

bentstick wrote:"Don't get caught up in, "cooper will transfer heat better than the CSST." The CSST compensates very well by being a thinner wall structure. Why have joints when you can have a continuous wand."


Has absolutely nothing to do with the subject!


Thanks dad. Ok that gives me a base number to work from. Which is better than nothing.

Ok so I need to figure out a back up safety proticol. Even though there can't ever be a plug. Only water goes in the steam boiler. And the connection to the main boiler is 2 inch tri clamp to a 2 inch pipe inside the mash . ( the steam head is 2 ss pipe. )

I actually have 2 1/2 csst lines that I can usee if that will increase the rate of transfer. I has seen last year on kijiji ( our craigslist ) 2 inch csst. 50f for 100 bucks. I'm kicking my self for not getting it then.. I can't find it now.
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby BoomTown » Wed May 10, 2017 7:53 am

yakattack wrote:Just my beer keg. So pressure isn't an option, although I can have one made.. my welder is a boiler maker and designs and builds them for a living.

Whigh begs that question boom- how much power can a 1/2 line take before it's size becomes to much a restriction and cause pressure build up?


I'm no boiler maker, but this I know. If you are using 1/2 ridged copper, with well made silver solder joints, it will hold a couple of hundred pounds easily. The pressure will increase depending on the input versus output plus heat. If you are choking a 2" pipe using a 1/2" tube, be certain that you have exit vents of more than the surface diameter 1/2" tube. We used vent holes of 3/32" and assumed that 24 holes were the minimum for venting the steam into our Mash Tun. That gave plenty of force to the steam jets, which caused the mash mass to move a bit, but assured that it wouldn't plug up. Wish I'd taken pictures of our steam venting prong we had inside the Mash Tun now, but don't. Just be careful that you have a vacuum release valve on your steam line between your boiler and the Mash Tun, when it cools off a vacuum happens when the steam condenses in the pipe and it will suck mash back into your steam line and foul your rig.

Using steam is simple enough, but it is no joke. Be safe not sorry.

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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby DAD300 » Thu May 11, 2017 11:37 am

bentstick wrote:"Don't get caught up in, "cooper will transfer heat better than the CSST." The CSST compensates very well by being a thinner wall structure. Why have joints when you can have a continuous wand."


Has absolutely nothing to do with the subject!


The point was that he could use one piece of CSST, thus eliminating all joints from boiler to boiler.
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby FuelMaker » Thu May 11, 2017 3:39 pm

I have to question why you're using CSST at a flexible connecting medium at all: I just did a natural gas line and the stuff is only flexible in comparison to rigid pipe, it's actually fairly stiff and would be a real PITA to use to move your wand around when using it. And you'd have to worry about cracking the line from metal fatigue from being bent frequently.

Unless you're looking to hard pipe it and leave your steam wand in place, then it'd probably be ideal.

IMO a much better tubing would be reinforced silicone steam hose, it's good up to about 400F and as an added bonus provide a little bit of insulation so you're not losing as much heat to the surrounding air.
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby yakattack » Thu May 11, 2017 5:20 pm

Csst is very flexible.

The steam wand doesn't get moved around. The csst allows me to be flexible in how I set up everything.
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby yakattack » Sun May 14, 2017 4:09 pm

Well shes done and working. After about 5 hours of tinkering cleaning and fab work, I got the system uo and running. Cleaned and got a mash done tonight which still leaves me an hour to clean up shower and get ready for a date tonight. All in all a good day. Hope yall remembered to call ur mothers today.

Pics up later
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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Re: flexable steam line for steam mashing and stripping.

Postby yakattack » Tue May 16, 2017 6:37 am

As promised here are some pic of the flexible steam line used for mashing.
20170514_160645.jpg
Flex lines with boiler and steam wand for mashing.


For give the mess in the background.

Next up we have the boiler end connection
20170514_160706.jpg
Boiler end connection


And finally the connection to the steam wand.
20170514_160716.jpg
Steam mashing wand connection.
.

Here's the nitty gritty.

2 inch tc capped with 3/4 " I'd pipe. Split into 2 48inch long 1/ 2 inch id csst line. Which connects via a union on the 3/4 inch pipe to both another 2 inch tc fitting and to the steam wand.

This will feed both steam mashing wand to mash in a 55 gallon barrel and to drive my boiler to run on the grain. No more squeezing grains for me.

It works well for the steam mashing wand. Did a 50 gallon batch of malt wheat and malted barley and some raw wheat. ( 100lbs ish. ) filled 25 gallon hot water from my hot water tank. Added in unmalted grains.
Turned on boiler to max. 6000w.

Heated to 152, added remaining grains, settled at aproxx 142f. Covered and held there for a few hours..

Added remaining water and pitched yeast. Next morning she was chugging along.

Soon as it's done it will be run through the boiler on the grain, feeding my 4 inch flute.

Plan to run on 3 plates, going to use the oak from my hail Mary batch ( late head and early tails ) of apple brandy from 2 years ago. Just tried the brandy and it's fantastic. Time to pull off and bottle for special occasions.

Will put pics up of the setup for running on the grain .

Now I need to find a pump that will handle the grain slurry. Any suggestions guys/gals?


Yak
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
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