Non-alcoholic distillates

All things related to oils and Hydrosols. How to make them and their uses.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
bakerst
Novice
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:21 am

Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by bakerst »

I hope this is the right place to post this.

I’m looking for advice on how to make non-alcoholic botanical extracts. I’ve tried using water to make hydrosols, but this produces a very weak flavor. I can tolerate some residual alcohol in the final product and so I could use alcohol, or a mix of alcohol and water in the maceration/distillation. But then I would still need to remove this alcohol whilst also retaining some strength of flavor.

Does anyone have experience of this or suggestions on how to remove the alcohol whilst retaining a strong flavor?

Are there alternatives to using alcohol – someone I spoke to a few weeks ago suggested vinegar could be a good carrier for flavor/aroma, but I’m not sure how viable this is.

Many thanks,
zapata
Distiller
Posts: 1664
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by zapata »

Given how steam distillation works I can't imagine how anything would work much better than water. It's not like you need an appropriate solvent where acidity or polarity matter. I thought it was more like the bulk liquid just acts as a medium to transfer the energy and a bit of a physical carrier. Most essential oils actually don't mix with the water they are distilled with which kinda proves that point.

What exactly are you trying to make? And are you using "hydrosol" in the same sense I know it, as the mildly scented water layer leftover after an essential oil has been phase separated? That might be your problem, most hydrosols are weak. Is there a reason you can't just use the actual essential oil if you want something strongly flavored/scented?
MDH
Distiller
Posts: 1001
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:33 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by MDH »

Not sure why your hydrosol is weak tasting. If your material is abundant in volatiles they will make it into the hydrosol no matter what. Do you leave it sitting out after you distill it or do you cool it down and bottle it asap? You could just be leaving the warm liquid out and losing the good stuff to the air.

I make one out of pine, another from rosemary and another out of lavender every single year - I make diffusers out of them and gift them out to friends. I've never had one that was "weak". If anything they tasted so intensely they were almost unpalatable.
The still is not a liar. Mash and ferment quality is 99.9% of your performance.
Forest Beekeeper
Novice
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by Forest Beekeeper »

bakerst wrote:... Are there alternatives to using alcohol – someone I spoke to a few weeks ago suggested vinegar could be a good carrier for flavor/aroma, but I’m not sure how viable this is.
Vinegar is an acid. I would be concerned that as an acid it may break down some of the oils you would be trying to isolate.

I have tried distilling an oil from oregano and from mint, the best I seem to be able to produce is a weak hydrosol.
User avatar
Alchemist75
Rumrunner
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:12 pm
Location: New Mexico USA

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by Alchemist75 »

Are you distilling the botanicals by putting them directly in your boiler or are you using a gin basket/thumper? Direct boiling can seriously affect the strength of the final product. If I put mint in my boiler the flavor and aroma come over much weaker than if I put the mint in my thumper and use indirect heat.
SOLVE ET COAGULA, ET HABEBIS MAGISTERIUM
Forest Beekeeper
Novice
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by Forest Beekeeper »

One time I loaded the gin basket with many pounds of dry botanical then I ran a batch of white liquor through, I was not much impressed with the gin basket.

On other occasions I have soaked botanical in 180 proof liquor for a week, then macerated it through a blender and cold pressed the liquid out. This gave a far better result.
User avatar
Alchemist75
Rumrunner
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:12 pm
Location: New Mexico USA

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by Alchemist75 »

Which botanicals are you using? Dry or fresh? Some don't yield much oil upon distillation and some yield no oil at all.
SOLVE ET COAGULA, ET HABEBIS MAGISTERIUM
User avatar
DetroitDIY
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 599
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:40 am
Location: SE Michigan

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by DetroitDIY »

The Essential Oil Maker's Handbook seems a good overview of the process, and includes a number of different plants and the yield you can expect from distilling them. Haven't actually tried it yet, but thinking of mint and sage. The pine needles sound nice too.
User avatar
kiwi Bruce
Distiller
Posts: 2324
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Transplanted Kiwi living in the States

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by kiwi Bruce »

Here is an interesting read for any of you who like making your own oils
http://agritech.tnau.ac.in/horticulture ... al_oil.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Getting hung up all day on smiles
amandab
Novice
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:44 am

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by amandab »

Hi, everyone! I'm trying to use a direct steam distilling method to create essential oils. I've made spruce, sage, and wild rose so far, and they don't separate. I understand that the oil will be in minute amounts, but there's no visible layer. Can anyone help me figure out what I'm doing wrong?

Thanks! Amanda
Forest Beekeeper
Novice
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by Forest Beekeeper »

amandab wrote:Hi, everyone! I'm trying to use a direct steam distilling method to create essential oils. I've made spruce, sage, and wild rose so far, and they don't separate. I understand that the oil will be in minute amounts, but there's no visible layer. Can anyone help me figure out what I'm doing wrong?

Thanks! Amanda
Is it possible that you have made a hydrosol?
User avatar
DetroitDIY
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 599
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:40 am
Location: SE Michigan

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by DetroitDIY »

I don't speak from experience, but have read up on the subject. My understanding is that you get VERY little essential oils per amount of plant material you use. Sage is estimated at 1.5 - 2.5%, Spruce is some 0.5 - 1.0 % yield and Rose is a paltry 0.02 - 0.03 % of essential oils. The vast majority will be hydrosol.

So, first look at how much your steam distilling. If it's not a decent quantity, you may not see it... just a hazy mixture. You want to put your hydrosol/oil mixture in a very narrow neck bottle so that as the oil separates, it creates a noticeable layer and is not too distributed over the surface of a wider vessel. There should be some separation initially, and if you let it sit for a few weeks you may get more separation.

If that's not working, give a different plant a try that is known for high yields: limes, turmeric, cardamom, cumin, or cedar, just so you can see what success looks like. And use a good amount of plant matter (multiple pounds).
zapata
Distiller
Posts: 1664
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by zapata »

I have some experience. And yes, it's not too unusual to do a full keg full and get a few ml of product. I remember one batch that ended up being .1% oil by dry weight, that's less than a ml of oil per kilogram of dried plant matter! Choose your victims carefully.

Remember there are no absolutes in chemistry. We learn it as rules, but everything is much less certain. For example, everything you've ever heard is immiscible in water? Nope, it is all miscible with water, just to lesser or lesser degrees. We all know oil and water don't mix, right? Wrong, they definitely do, just not very much. The take home there is that if you do a large batch all at once, you could have a tiny bit of oil mixed with a large portion of hydrosol, enough so that most or even all your oil mixes with the water. :thumbdown:

The prevention to this is to not collect in one large container, but collect in a proper oil separator, florentine flask, or some homebrewed way to separate the oil as you run. And even then, harvest the oil at least once through the run, go ahead and grab that first bit before you have a chance to dilute it away.

A potential cure, I have reused saturated hydrosol in the next batch. You will likely degrade the hydrosol at least some so make sure you want the oil more than the hydrosol. Hydrosol doesn't necessarily have the same chemical constituents as the desired oil, but they will likely be chemically similar and thus "hold ground" that the oil won't be able to mix into. I have seen higher yields using hydrosol, it's kinda like backset or recycling feints.

You do know a few oils will sink, not float, right? If you're just going in blind on a botanical, check for a bottom layer too. Some weird cases can apparently have a tri-phase distillate with hydrosol in the middle and upper and lower layers of non-polar oils.

You also must be meticulous that you don't contaminate with things that will alter the solubility. EG don't add a splash of vodka thinking it will help the distillation, or try to steam distill fermenting fruits. The alcohol will come over (duh) and that precious oil that is barely soluble in water may be much more soluble in an alcoholic solution.

Thats all I've got off the top of my head. What does your distillate look and smell like?
User avatar
DetroitDIY
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 599
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:40 am
Location: SE Michigan

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by DetroitDIY »

zapata wrote:You do know a few oils will sink, not float, right?
Right, I believe cinnamon oil is denser than water. I picked up some 14 and 20 gauge blunt tip (not medical) needles and a glass syringe with a teflon plunger to collect the oils with. One of them are pretty long length to collect off the bottom of the bottle for these denser oils.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075H ... UTF8&psc=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AF ... UTF8&psc=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SB ... UTF8&psc=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
zapata
Distiller
Posts: 1664
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Non-alcoholic distillates

Post by zapata »

That's one way to do it. I just looked and see a 3 way separator is actually a prime day deal! It might be the first actually useful prime day deal I've seen, ever.
https://www.amazon.com/StonyLab-Receive ... B07CH1G9CB" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
It's 24/40 glass joints, which doesn't matter if you don't have lab glass. If you do have lab glass, I did notice a review that said standard keck clamps didn't fit it, if that is true (I actually find it kinda hard to believe, that's been standard in lab glass for 50 years) but I guess you'd have to get old school and wire it in place.
Post Reply